FLOPS Impass?

[hogbody]

CJS,
In the case of the Flight Options Pilots, you're completely missing the point. You've oversimplified the situation so your position seems reasonable to those who are unaware of the history.
The FO pilot group is composed almost entirely of mature, experienced professionals. These folks agreed to work at a job for sub-par compensation, with the understanding they were going to contribute to a potentially great organization. They were promised pay in line with NetJets.
Unfortunately, poor management has squandered the company's potential, and broken many long held promises. Most of these pilots have spent from 5 to 11 years of their lives waiting for inept managers to make good on their promises.
In your world, these guys should move on to what? Another "great" job, only to find out they've been lied to again? How many decades of this crap should these guys have to spend chasing broken promises? When you're 70, and living under a bridge, it's a little too late to realize you should have dug in your heels and fought for what was yours. Running from the fight is the cowards way out.

 

[cjs]

Hogbody, if the company broke a contract, then by all means, cram it up their ass in court.

Assuming you're right ... sticking with a company .. earning low wages, knowing full well the mgt was incompetent and untrustworthy .. what did you expect was going to happen?

 

[gunfyter]

This really isn't complicated. If you unionize - you essentially force your employer pay you more than he/she thinks you're worth. ...

.. and you force your employer to obey the FARs like those pesky duty and rest rules ... and others like flying the airplane within legal weight and balance limits etc..

Your employer can't afford to pay what you are worth. Only what the job is worth.

Sometimes an employer needs to be educated on just what your job is worth. Just like athletes and film actors ... sometimes you need an AGENT to negotiate this for you. Thats why you unionize.

you might be a good athlete, or movie actor, or pilot ... but you are not a good negotiator.

Why should you earn less because of your negotiating skills?

 

[cjs]

.. and you force your employer to obey the FARs like those pesky duty and rest rules ... and others like flying the airplane within legal weight and balance limits etc..

Your employer can't afford to pay what you are worth. Only what the job is worth.

Sometimes an employer needs to be educated on just what your job is worth. Just like athletes and film actors ... sometimes you need an AGENT to negotiate this for you. Thats why you unionize.

Agreed, there's nothing wrong with negotiating labor rates on a group basis. However, when doing so, you transform your labor into a commodity. What does it cost to have a pilot fly X from A to B? Not you, or Bruce, or Bob, but "a pilot".

Now that your labor rate is being negotiated as a commodity, you have to ask yourself one question: If every pilot at FLOPS were to leave tomorrow, would FLOPS be able to refill those slots at the current pay rate? If not, you indeed are underpaid. If so, you are either paid at the market rate, or overpaid.

I'll leave that one for you to decide.

 

[netjetwife]

There is a market rate for a frac pilot. You will see the term "industry standard" used here frequently. It refers to the compensation package and the working conditions. There is no reason Options pilots should undersell their aviation skills. Combining their collective efforts to obtain a contract guaranteeing them the going rate for their expertise is a legally protected right they have chosen to exercise.

CJS, you have it backwards; you don't look to those entering the industry to set the standard. The rate is set by those already performing the job. When Ops pilots look to their 3000 plus peers who are better compensated for the same duties and responsibilities it is obvious they have some catching up to do.

 

[B19 Flyer]

There is a market rate for a frac pilot. You will see the term "industry standard" used here frequently. It refers to the compensation package and the working conditions. There is no reason Options pilots should undersell their aviation skills. Combining their collective efforts to obtain a contract guaranteeing them the going rate for their expertise is a legally protected right they have chosen to exercise.

CJS, you have it backwards; you don't look to those entering the industry to set the standard. The rate is set by those already performing the job. When Ops pilots look to their 3000 plus peers who are better compensated for the same duties and responsibilities it is obvious they have some catching up to do.

NJW, no, it’s not backwards. CJS is right on the button.

Yes, you can bring a union onto the company and negotiate better payroll for a specific work group, but the rest of the company suffers and the business model is changed. The company now must find ways to create additional revenue or the end product now must be sold for a higher amount to make up for the higher wages. The rest of the employee group will wind up earning less because the pilot group in this case will earn a proportionally higher amount than their peers.

There is no way to measure the human “cost” involved by the turmoil created by unions or the inability for a company to react to market pressures during economic downturn and upturns. Contract issues such as scope clauses and seniority lists have traditionally tied carrier’s hands and in some cases have severely prevented growth and increased revenue.

Non-pilot employees take the brunt of the turmoil with the classic “Game On” attitudes from union supporters coupled with continued disrespect from those such as yourself that feel it’s all about the pilots and not about the industry, the company and the non-pilot employees that make it all happen.

It was very public at NJ that during union negotiations the company was stagnated because there was no way to predict the cost of the contract. As a result, aircraft were chartered driving up costs that would not have happened otherwise. I’m certain the union didn’t care about what NJ paid for that as it was an accepted part of negotiations.

A little under two years ago I made certain statements about 1108 and FLOPS that are beginning to come true. I made statements that they were looking at three years of turmoil during negotiations (two down, one to go), a stagnant company that was unable to grow or react to market pressures and that pilots would be frustrated.

Unions are slow to react under pressure, and right now in today’s economic climate, 1108 has missed the boat. It is not going to get any better, and the FLOPS guys are looking at pure hell right now because 1108 didn’t get it done. If they were so good, then they should have been able to convince management that the compensation package they were offering would benefit the pilots and the company.

Union supporters want to blame the company, but while they are sitting there stagnant, their counterparts over at CS have been able to operate without the restriction of the union. CS let NJ take the big union bite, then adjusted accordingly keeping the union off the property while retaining the ability to react to market pressures.

If I were a FLOPS guy, I’d be bailing out for CS in a heartbeat. With all of the carriers bowing to the economic climate and the high cost of fuel, the competition will be greatly increased.

No, NJW, the FLOPS union supporters are getting exactly what they asked for. A year from now, nothing is going to have changed, and these poor guys are going to continue blaming everybody in the world except for themselves and 1108 as all the rest of the non-union fractionals succeed and grow around them, because they can.

 

[Hawker dude]

NJW, no, it’s not backwards. CJS is right on the button.

Yes, you can bring a union onto the company and negotiate better payroll for a specific work group, but the rest of the company suffers and the business model is changed. The company now must find ways to create additional revenue or the end product now must be sold for a higher amount to make up for the higher wages. The rest of the employee group will wind up earning less because the pilot group in this case will earn a proportionally higher amount than their peers.

There is no way to measure the human “cost” involved by the turmoil created by unions or the inability for a company to react to market pressures during economic downturn and upturns. Contract issues such as scope clauses and seniority lists have traditionally tied carrier’s hands and in some cases have severely prevented growth and increased revenue.

Non-pilot employees take the brunt of the turmoil with the classic “Game On” attitudes from union supporters coupled with continued disrespect from those such as yourself that feel it’s all about the pilots and not about the industry, the company and the non-pilot employees that make it all happen.

It was very public at NJ that during union negotiations the company was stagnated because there was no way to predict the cost of the contract. As a result, aircraft were chartered driving up costs that would not have happened otherwise. I’m certain the union didn’t care about what NJ paid for that as it was an accepted part of negotiations.

A little under two years ago I made certain statements about 1108 and FLOPS that are beginning to come true. I made statements that they were looking at three years of turmoil during negotiations (two down, one to go), a stagnant company that was unable to grow or react to market pressures and that pilots would be frustrated.

Unions are slow to react under pressure, and right now in today’s economic climate, 1108 has missed the boat. It is not going to get any better, and the FLOPS guys are looking at pure hell right now because 1108 didn’t get it done. If they were so good, then they should have been able to convince management that the compensation package they were offering would benefit the pilots and the company.

Union supporters want to blame the company, but while they are sitting there stagnant, their counterparts over at CS have been able to operate without the restriction of the union. CS let NJ take the big union bite, then adjusted accordingly keeping the union off the property while retaining the ability to react to market pressures.

If I were a FLOPS guy, I’d be bailing out for CS in a heartbeat. With all of the carriers bowing to the economic climate and the high cost of fuel, the competition will be greatly increased.

No, NJW, the FLOPS union supporters are getting exactly what they asked for. A year from now, nothing is going to have changed, and these poor guys are going to continue blaming everybody in the world except for themselves and 1108 as all the rest of the non-union fractionals succeed and grow around them, because they can.

you can't be a pilot. if you are you are the worst kind.

selling yourself short man.

I spent 40K to put myself through college and flight school. so I deserve more for that.

I leave my wife and kids for almost half the year, I deserve more for that.

a pilots pay or work rules should never be compared to a scheduler or dispatcher or anyother empoyee group.

wake up B19. go back to the schedulling boards where you belong.

 

[netjetwife]

HD, I agree with you that along with the obvious factor of the going rate, professionals frequently mention the expense of time and money they spent in preparing themselves for their career. Likewise, the demands made on their lifestyle are part of the overall compensation formula. The majority of frac pilots understand this well and all of these factors are considered at the bargaining table.

CONTRACTS ARE COMMONPLACE IN OUR SOCIETY ESPECIALLY AMONG PROFESSIONALS. NEGOTIATIONS ARE A LEGALLY PROTECTED RIGHT.

 

[FastJP4]

There is a market rate for a frac pilot. You will see the term "industry standard" used here frequently. It refers to the compensation package and the working conditions. There is no reason Options pilots should undersell their aviation skills. Combining their collective efforts to obtain a contract guaranteeing them the going rate for their expertise is a legally protected right they have chosen to exercise.

CJS, you have it backwards; you don't look to those entering the industry to set the standard. The rate is set by those already performing the job. When Ops pilots look to their 3000 plus peers who are better compensated for the same duties and responsibilities it is obvious they have some catching up to do.

Well stated NJW. Given the conditions the FLOPS pilots operate under - they have every right to organize if that is what THEY choose. There IS an "industry standard" for all segements of flying. If FLOPS had decent management, there would have been no need to organize (see CS). But they don't, and the only options available to them are to take it up the a_s, or to organize. I can certainately understand why they have chosen the latter.

Fast

 

[netjetwife]

Thanks, Fast... there are a number of good posts on this thread dealing with the reality that Ops pilots are underpaid for performing specialized skills and being directly responsible for the lives of their pax.

SMART MANAGERS LIKE THOSE AT NJ AND CS MOTIVATE WORKERS WITH CARROTS. THE FLOPS DRIVE THEIR PILOTS AWAY WITH STICKS. BANDING TOGETHER TO INSIST ON RESPECTFUL TREATMENT AND PROFESSIONAL COMPENSATION IS THE LOGICAL SOLUTION.

 

[Ultra Grump]

God I wish you people would stop feeding the Troll...

(and no, I don't mean me! )

 

[netjetwife]

Grumpy, your sensitivity regarding your image is revealing. Don't look now, but I think your mask is slipping just a bit...

 

[dime line]

If B19 is the only one talking (posting) then that is the only side a pilot that is reading this message board will see. B19 is doing an excellent job of posting a bunch of BS. It is his job to say crap that dosent make one ounce of sense. THat is what he is paid to do. He is part of the "machine at FLOPS" that is paying him to see this contract fail. So for the weak minded individual still on the fence, dosent want to "rock the boat" "has no f..in backbone" type, they need to see a rebuttal to B19's post. We all just have to deal with B19 and Skansa and anyother "moron" out there.

Just my opinion.

 

[Galaxy]

Ditto Dime Line..


GAME ON!!!!!

 

[B19 Flyer]

If B19 is the only one talking (posting) then that is the only side a pilot that is reading this message board will see. B19 is doing an excellent job of posting a bunch of BS. It is his job to say crap that dosent make one ounce of sense. THat is what he is paid to do. He is part of the "machine at FLOPS" that is paying him to see this contract fail. So for the weak minded individual still on the fence, dosent want to "rock the boat" "has no f..in backbone" type, they need to see a rebuttal to B19's post. We all just have to deal with B19 and Skansa and anyother "moron" out there.

Just my opinion.

Is that Beavis or Butthead?

 

[Galaxy]

Bb/B19
I have you on ignore--but it is interesting how late you are on the board. Shouldn't you be packing you office up or something?

Don't bother responding-I can't read your babble.

 

[skanza]

*sigh*

If B19 is the only one talking (posting) then that is the only side a pilot that is reading this message board will see. B19 is doing an excellent job of posting a bunch of BS. It is his job to say crap that dosent make one ounce of sense. THat is what he is paid to do. He is part of the "machine at FLOPS" that is paying him to see this contract fail. So for the weak minded individual still on the fence, dosent want to "rock the boat" "has no f..in backbone" type, they need to see a rebuttal to B19's post. We all just have to deal with B19 and Skansa and anyother "moron" out there.

Just my opinion.

So dime bag, do you think that censoring points of view that aren't the same as yours is a balanced way of informing those who may be on the fence? Doesn't sound like it to me. Sound more like totalitarianism.
I don't think B19 is posting BS, and believe it or not, neither are some of the union supporters. Both have some valid opinions, its just the the union folks are more agressive and angry. It just doesn't make sense to try to quiet those who oppose just because they oppose.



-now, I'll wait to be accused of being b19 or some other disrespectful anti-me or anti-management comment-

 

[cjs]

I spent 40K to put myself through college and flight school. so I deserve more for that.

I leave my wife and kids for almost half the year, I deserve more for that.

Heh, 40k. Consider yourself lucky.

If it's that bad, why stick around? There's a line around the block waiting to fill your seat, and you know it. That's why management balks at even paying you what you make now ..

Really, there are plenty of people out there who spend more than you did on education, and earn far less. All that matters to your employer is your market value dictated by the supply of qualified pilots.

Yeah, its a raw deal. Tens of thousands of dollars in education, unpredictable employment prospects, a large amount of responsibility, life on the road, etc etc. But everybody and their brother wants to be a pilot, so what do you expect?

a pilots pay or work rules should never be compared to a scheduler or dispatcher or anyother empoyee group.

That's a slap in the face to every mechanic who's ever touched a plane you've flown. Oh, the arrogance.

 

[Joe Jet Pilot]

What is a B19???????????

 

[netjetwife]

CJS, it's obvious you're not part of the frac industry because your opinions don't match reality. Pilots are avoiding the FLOPS and many of the ones working there got disgusted with the sub-par wages and left. The "line around the block" is actually at NJA where the pilots have the best deal in the frac industry hands down.

Being an outsider you wouldn't realize that the CEOs of NJ and CS were so concerned by the shrinking supply of qualified pilots that they just recently raised wages for the second time in under 3 years. Smart managers know that it's irresponsible to waste training dollars in a revolving door fashion instead of paying a professional salary guaranteed to keep the pilots you already have a significant investment in.

HD wasn't arrogant; he was practical. Everyone knows you don't compare apples to oranges so when it comes to pilot pay only the wages of another pilot group in the same industry matters. BTW, NJ pilots helped the mechanics and the FAs with their contracts. Those workers feel thankful toward 1108 pilots-- not insulted.

It's easy to see why frac pilots and their spouses would want to post here, but what is the motive of those who spread misinformation?

 

[B19 Flyer]

CJS, it's obvious you're not part of the frac industry because your opinions don't match reality. Pilots are avoiding the FLOPS and many of the ones working there got disgusted with the sub-par wages and left. The "line around the block" is actually at NJA where the pilots have the best deal in the frac industry hands down.

Being an outsider you wouldn't realize that the CEOs of NJ and CS were so concerned by the shrinking supply of qualified pilots that they just recently raised wages for the second time in under 3 years. Smart managers know that it's irresponsible to waste training dollars in a revolving door fashion instead of paying a professional salary guaranteed to keep the pilots you already have a significant investment in.

HD wasn't arrogant; he was practical. Everyone knows you don't compare apples to oranges so when it comes to pilot pay only the wages of another pilot group in the same industry matters. BTW, NJ pilots helped the mechanics and the FAs with their contracts. Those workers feel thankful toward 1108 pilots-- not insulted.

It's easy to see why frac pilots and their spouses would want to post here, but what is the motive of those who spread misinformation?

NJW, you are not part of the fractional industry either. You are a pilot's wife that has a right to post here, but you don't get it.

It's not about the money, it's about the industry, what's best for the company and those within it.

Unions have traditionally torn down good companies, and if the economy continues, you will be crying "bad management" when things start to go bad just like all the unions did 7 years ago.

Because somebody doesn't share your opinion, doesn't mean it's misinformation.

The misinformation is when the union doesn't explain all the pitfalls to pilots about the turmoil created to the non-pilot employees that you disrespect so much.

You won't admit that 1108 hasn't gotten it done yet, and won't with the slipping economy.

You just stand there with your husband volunteering for pay spitting out the union propaganda...

 

[cjs]

NJW,

Rather than repeat myself, I've got a simple question for you. Well, not you, but your husband. What is it about flying that justifies forming a union? It's not too often you see guys with four year degrees forming bargaining units anywhere other than aviation ..

Another question: If it's really that bad, why not leave? Hell, there aren't many other professions where instead of leaving for a better job, you try to band everybody together to demand more pay.

 

[netjetwife]

Aviation is very complicated and a pilot's license is on the line with every flight. If something goes wrong a pilot will fare better with a representative on his side to make sure fair rules are followed. The demanding lifestyle allows too much room for management to take advantage of the pilots without written rules to protect their interests. Managers can too easily lose sight of the fact that the workforce is their greatest asset. When that happens the Union can remind them but an individual would still be ignored. Those are just off the top of my head. My husband could add to the list but he's on a busy schedule this week. Working for the pilotgroup in CMH on his days off. Unity and camaraderie are very high in 1108 and NJASAP. My family is proud of our connection with the pilots and their families. In the cockpit pilots must rely on each other as a matter of safety. I think that appreciation for teamwork carries over to the Union work they do together to protect each other career wise.

You continually get it wrong; is that deliberate?! I have repeatedly explained that the pay is good at NJA -- over 100K for a 6 yr Captain like my husband. There are millions of unionized workers in America and even more around the world. Why are you against the Options pilots getting a fair contract?

THE OPTIONS PILOTS ARE STANDING UP AGAINST SUB-PAR WAGES. THEIR INEPT CEO IS A PROVEN LIAR WHO SHOULD GET THE BLACK BOOT.

 

[imacdog]

What is it about flying that justifies forming a union?

Management

 

[BombJet45]

NJW,

Rather than repeat myself, I've got a simple question for you. Well, not you, but your husband. What is it about flying that justifies forming a union? It's not too often you see guys with four year degrees forming bargaining units anywhere other than aviation ..

Another question: If it's really that bad, why not leave? Hell, there aren't many other professions where instead of leaving for a better job, you try to band everybody together to demand more pay.

CJS,
Are you a pilot for FO?

 

[Voice Of Reason]

GA boards 2005

Ok, how the heck do you get into the merchant marines? I've been out of school for 3 months as an electrical engineer and am ready to throw in the towel at a moment's notice .. definitely not my cup of tea.

For those of you who are interested, west coast longshoreman make between $70-100k per year doing manual labor (the crane operators can close in on $200k). The catch? You have to work on "casual" status for several years, basically begging for a day of work here and there until you have accrued a few thousand hours and pass a skills test. But hey, once you're in, you're in.

Anyone know where to get a job as a oil derrick/field worker for an oil company? I've heard the pay is good.

While we're at it, can anyone throw me a few suggestions for jobs which involve outdoor work and decent pay without having to pay for more school?

this thread:

Heh, 40k. Consider yourself lucky.

If it's that bad, why stick around? There's a line around the block waiting to fill your seat, and you know it. That's why management balks at even paying you what you make now ..

Really, there are plenty of people out there who spend more than you did on education, and earn far less. All that matters to your employer is your market value dictated by the supply of qualified pilots.

Yeah, its a raw deal. Tens of thousands of dollars in education, unpredictable employment prospects, a large amount of responsibility, life on the road, etc etc. But everybody and their brother wants to be a pilot, so what do you expect?



That's a slap in the face to every mechanic who's ever touched a plane you've flown. Oh, the arrogance.

For the life of me I can't imagine why you'd be posting on this board, and why little boys feel the need to play here at all. Adding the 11th complete and utter waste of space to the ignore list. Congrats, it has to take an extreme lack of brain cells and obsessive pilot envy to get there. Enjoy your own inner hell all by yourself... :::click::::

 

[GerryG]

Ok, I've decided

Now that your labor rate is being negotiated as a commodity, you have to ask yourself one question: If every pilot at FLOPS were to leave tomorrow, would FLOPS be able to refill those slots at the current pay rate? If not, you indeed are underpaid. If so, you are either paid at the market rate, or overpaid.

I'll leave that one for you to decide.

Ok...I've decided.

News Flash:

Out of 9 new-hires in this months class, one was recommended for a check ride at Simuflite.

So yea Flops management can get applicants, but none of them are making it to the line.

Bottom line, we are paid 50% of the industry standard and as such management can only attract pilots unsuited for the task.

Time to pay up management.

As for you CJS, go turn a wrench or something. At least do your homework before you come on here.

 

[Helmsalee]

HD, please don't quote B19. I have him on ignore for a reason.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

HD, please don't quote B19. I have him on ignore for a reason.

I agree ...MANY of us do! As I have said many times before it is just as trollish to keep RESPONDING to a KNOWN TROLL. Anyone who AT THIS POINT uses the excuse that they do it so bad info isn't out there, is lying, because a simple search when anyone "new" sees he is catching nothing with his bait, will enlighten people MORE THAN ENOUGH as to what he is about, and if they live under a rock, what FLOPS is about. Don;t GIVE him a forum for his BS! Use the IGNORE, and I assure you he will move on when he is only talking to HIMSELF!

So, yes, you ARE a troll if you respond to him, no matter what your pointless reasons.

 

[B19 Flyer]

I agree ...MANY of us do! As I have said many times before it is just as trollish to keep RESPONDING to a KNOWN TROLL. Anyone who AT THIS POINT uses the excuse that they do it so bad info isn't out there, is lying, because a simple search when anyone "new" sees he is catching nothing with his bait, will enlighten people MORE THAN ENOUGH as to what he is about, and if they live under a rock, what FLOPS is about. Don;t GIVE him a forum for his BS! Use the IGNORE, and I assure you he will move on when he is only talking to HIMSELF!

So, yes, you ARE a troll if you respond to him, no matter what your pointless reasons.

Faulty reasoning from the Voice of Reason.

I get way too much support through PMs to ignore the stupid union supporting rhetoric posted on these boards.

If you want to stick your head in the sand and ignore the truth, that's fine with me, that's why I've given instructions on how to place me on ignore.:laugh: