Flops, CS and Flex reaction

[greygoose]

Curious if anyone knows what the other companies are thinking with Netjets proprosed TA going around?

 

[be-400xpdriver]

Before the TA from Flops/CS/Flex managment to the pilots, " Dont worry about NetJets. What ever they make and what ever thier work rules are we will match them trust us. You dont need a union we will take care of all our pilots."

After the the TA from Flops/CS/Flex managment to the pilots, " Sorry we can't afford to pay you what NetJets makes now or match thier work rules or any other part of thier contract. But don't worry we will take care of you some how and no you still don't need a union trust us!"

 

[hawkercpt]

MOST, Options pilots I've spoken with are encouraged by the TA. It seems as if it will help the union drive here.

 

[On Your Six]

Before the TA from Flops/CS/Flex managment to the pilots, " Dont worry about NetJets. What ever they make and what ever thier work rules are we will match them trust us. You dont need a union we will take care of all our pilots."

After the the TA from Flops/CS/Flex managment to the pilots, " Sorry we can't afford to pay you what NetJets makes now or match thier work rules or any other part of thier contract. But don't worry we will take care of you some how and no you still don't need a union trust us!"

I wonder what the FLOPS management will do when their pilots start to leave for NJA or greener pastures elsewhere? I know FLOPS has already lost a lot of pilots. Maybe Swift will get more of the flying...

 

[Frac Daddy]

I wonder what the FLOPS management will do when their pilots start to leave for NJA or greener pastures elsewhere? I know FLOPS has already lost a lot of pilots. Maybe Swift will get more of the flying...

They would be happy if a bunch of us left. That way, they can replace us with pilots at Year 1 pay. Remember, we don't get longevity pay. We get paid for time in seat.

 

[Fedmagnet]

Frac Daddy

Is dead on, everyone over year one pay must upgrade to year one pay (oxymoran) or quit at Flops.

To make us feel better, they will throw us a bone. Maybe a $2.00 bump on that $27.00 quarterly fuel card or something big like that. By the way, whats the latest calculation for how much it cost to distribute and use those fuel cards. This has got to be in the Guiness book for: Most Expense way to give someone $27.00, Also: Most Dificult Way to Spend $27.00. Congratulations to Flops for reaching another milestone in aviation.
:cartman:

 

[RJET]

They would be happy if a bunch of us left. That way, they can replace us with pilots at Year 1 pay. Remember, we don't get longevity pay. We get paid for time in seat.

Just want to make sure I understand this. Once you upgreade you go back to 1st year pay as captain? (Sorry, I am new to the fractional world)
How long are upgrades now in days?
What's this flex schedule 15days max a month?
Typical duty day?
Thanks

 

[greygoose]

From the variety of people I have talked with, you do not go down to first year pay. If your making 6th year FO that will lateral to the same captain pay, but you wont loose your pay.

 

[ProFracPilot]

From the variety of people I have talked with, you do not go down to first year pay. If your making 6th year FO that will lateral to the same captain pay, but you wont loose your pay.

You don't see your paycheck reduced immediately, but real income will be eroded by cost of living. Assume for our demonstration purposes that 6th year FO pay in the equipment you're flying is equivilent to year 2 Capt pay for the aircraft in which your seniority allows you to hold the seat. You successfully bid the new aircraft, but won't see a pay increase until year 3 AS CAPTAIN. You also sign a training agreement and are now seat locked for a year. The current system is penalizes you for the upgrade. The "Slide to Parity" pay scale based on years in seat, not years of service. So the longer you sit as an FO, the worse it gets. It is a regressive pay system.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

hehehehe

I wonder what the FLOPS management will do when their pilots start to leave for NJA or greener pastures elsewhere? I know FLOPS has already lost a lot of pilots. Maybe Swift will get more of the flying...

You seriously don't need to worry about Flops pilots wanting to go to NJA.... That choice would rank just below charter contract work and Wal-Mart greeter.
Enjoy your NJA "riches" :laugh: while they last...Uncle Warren is said to be getting bored with you... Be careful how you act toward your sister/brother Raytheon/Flops pilots...the industry is small, and Raytheon will always be around...one never knows just how the tables will turn, and people have very good memories....
Flops pilots may not be ecstatic right now (for reasons that have NOTHING to do with the narcissistic NetJets IBT posting group)...But then, it is a state of mind that is rampant through the ENTIRE industry right now...It's just the cards the profession is being dealt right now. You can work toward making things better (without having to take on the persona of angry truckers)...but the crazy "peacock" posting is doing more harm to your own futures than you realize at this point. I wouldn't WANT to be associated with such a group. There are a lot of jobs that pay more, but that doesn't mean I'd want to be associated with the classless images of some of them...KWIM?

 

[squonk]

Voice of Reason:

I haven't seen too many rub your face in it posts on here. The couple I have seen were directed at specific posters who were vocal opponents of NJA or the Union. People are excited don't get me wrong. I have received nothing but positive support from fellow frax pilots out on the road. I still say this helps us all.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Just a thought....

Voice of Reason:

I haven't seen too many rub your face in it posts on here. The couple I have seen were directed at specific posters who were vocal opponents of NJA or the Union. People are excited don't get me wrong. I have received nothing but positive support from fellow frax pilots out on the road.

I do hope the positive support continues... I have seen a lot of "rub it in your face" posts...HOWEVER, those are likely not from actual NetJets pilots. I am just hoping that the IBT covert posters can now stop trying to infect the attitudes of other pilot groups in their attempt to save their own drowning union ship that has been losing money and membership for years now.

If their "stirring up" of one group vs another actually starts working, I'd be remiss if I did not remind the instigators that many sayings are around for a reason: "What goes around comes around," "Every dog has its day," "Who's Crying Now," ...cliches that have been around since the beginning af time, because everything is cyclical. I am reminded just a few years back of the fellow co-workers who jumped ship to United and USAir...I was happy for most...but then, there were those who wanted to flaunt their perceived newly enlarged genitals...Yet, now where are they? At the bottom of the barrel with no impending hope of much more... A few years ago, who would have thought that was even possible? Now they are begging to get on with a frac, as hard as it is for some of us in the fracs to understand why.

My point is, support each other...and always remember that the shoe always ends up on the other foot at some point...That's just how it goes.

In the meantime, recognize that certain posters are here ONLY to instigate discontent between the groups...some are long time posters (ie: On Your Six...and MANY more), seemingly obsessed with making seemingly innocuous posts to that end. NetJets ACTUAL pilots, good luck to you...you've suffered through a lot from both mgt and IBT... FLOPS pilots...It's easy to get caught up in "how bad" things are (and they ARE at times), but its not isolated within the company. Raytheon getting almost whole ownership is GOOD thing...they will always want to make more money off their products. Fight professional for what you deserve...I was VERY impressed by the post on the co board (for actual FLOPS pilots with a password, it is under "Co Questions", "tier 3 update" 10-12-05, 4:15:04, poster initials A.T....I will not post it here as I do not have permission from, or know the poster, and it requires a password and people post under REAL names) FINALLY a reasonable person who can get a point across in a professional way, without coming off like a trucker...yet NOT backing down. So for all of those who have tried to label me in a little box, and accuse me of this or that...THAT post is EXACTLY how I think things should be handled, and people like THAT need to organize. People like THAT can change things for the better and elevate the profession, not the IBT paid sludge that lurks around the board day and night. The pen is mighter than the club, and professionals get treated like professionals, not the mafia.

 

[Frac Daddy]

From the variety of people I have talked with, you do not go down to first year pay. If your making 6th year FO that will lateral to the same captain pay, but you wont loose your pay.

That is true. The "slide-to-parity" thing. However, isn't 6th year FO the equivalent of a second year captain? In other words, even though you have been there 6 years, you won't get six year captain pay.

RJET,

I recently had a friend of mine upgrade. He has been here four years exactly.

Flex schedule is a 21on/9off schedule. In those 21 days, you will work 15. You will not know which days you work in advance. Max days on the road straight is 8. There are other rules about days off and callout. PM me for details.

There is no "typical" duty day.

 

[JustInfo]

Relax Voice of Reason, so far every FLOPS crew and FLEX crew have offered congrats on the new contract and are excited for what it will do for the whole industry. Why you so bitter towards NJA anyway?? Just curious.

Personally, I think my 90K for working 168 days a year will suit me quite well...

 

[Stickshaker]

Hey Voice,
You sound a little bitter but I could be reading you wrong.
It sounds like your against unions, is that true?

I have to agree that unions may not have there places, but in aviation it's a no brainer. You see, NetJets and Warren Buffet have always had the money to pay us. It was the outstanding group of unified pilots and the hard work of our MEC that got the money out of them. Do you realize how many more days a year the Flight Option guys work and how much more we make now because of our union.
I'm sorry if I sound like I'm bragging, I just want you to know that we would be in the same boat or probably worse if it wasn't for our union working for us. I'm getting 40 thousand dollars because of my union. Flight Options could have the same if they got together like we did. You guys deserve the same. We want to help you guy's. It's good for the whole industry.
Good luck

 

[Fedmagnet]

Voice of Reason

Voice of Reason is anti- union because he is getting the SFO bennies that would be gone if we vote in the union at Flops. He has everything to loose in a fair system.

Thanks to NJs for raising the bar. I hope we can do the same for you guys one day.

 

[choppengruven]

Voice of Treason

He can say Bye Bye to the free money the rest of us break our backs to make. The drive will be successful this time.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Obviously FedMagnet Not Flops

Voice of Reason is anti- union because he is getting the SFO bennies that would be gone if we vote in the union at Flops. He has everything to loose in a fair system.

Thanks to NJs for raising the bar. I hope we can do the same for you guys one day.

You are on some SERIOUS crack, dude... :nuts:

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Guess you had no access to the Co board post I spoke about...

Hey Voice,
You sound a little bitter but I could be reading you wrong.
It sounds like your against unions, is that true?

Not at all... I just don't want to be associated with an unprofessional one that encourages trucker behavior...

 

[Diesel]

Why is it that the only argument everyone has for the teamsters is that we are unprofessional truckers.

There is nothing wrong with truckers. They make an honest living doing a tough job. No autopilot or anything just a long lonely road.

Look at 1108. We separated from 284 started a whole new union, set up the infrastructure that we can be proud of, started a war chest to fight anything in the future for fellow pilots, and finally got a TA that we can be proud of by raising the bar for everyone.

But keep calling us a union thug. I think we've proved ourselves.

 

[Stickshaker]

Well said Diesel !
These are the most professional group of pilots I have ever worked with. Vioce of Reason is proving his name wrong.

 

[FL450]

I'm very proud to be associated with 1108. Let the trolls and their negative spin simply fade away. The fact is, 1108 has been very steadfast in it's goal and the progress since leaving 284 speaks for itself. We now have a TA that will most certainly be voted in and raise the bar for NJA pilots, and in fact, all Fractional pilots.

I'm not concerned with the TAs shortcomings. Improvements will continue to be worked on long after we have left the flightdecks. What I am concerned with is looking forward and continuing to give credibility to the idea that the Fractional industry can be far more than a stepping stone. It is fast heading in that direction, if not there already! :beer:

"Thank you" to all of you that have worked so hard to get us where we are now!

 

[squonk]

FL450:

Let the trolls and their negative spin simply fade away.

The problem is they faded away so fast! Makes me wonder why.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

YETAGAIN reading into it...

Well said Diesel !
These are the most professional group of pilots I have ever worked with. Vioce of Reason is proving his name wrong.

I'm not being a Vioce? huh?
ANYWAY... I have repeatedly indicated the refernce is directed to the paid THUGS of IBT that troll the board...If you want to consider yourself one of those, than you should rightly take offense. In previous posts I have clarified the fact that REAL netjets pilots are NOT typically like the thug trash promoted by the morons who incite division between the groups, and show up every 5 minutes to shout "management" or "senior pilot" at anyone who expresses an opinion that might take $$$ out of the pockets of IBT. Why to I have to continously reiterate that I AM indeed PRO union...Just not Pro-IBT? If I am a coffee lover, do I have to love BOTH Starbuck's AND Seattle's best? What if (hypothetically) Starbuck's had dubious accounting practices... or unethical hiring practices? Being Pro-Seattle's Best would not make me ANTI-Coffee.... KWIM?

 

[Fedmagnet]

Voice of Reason

I respect your choice.
Vote for the other union.......wait, there are'nt any!
No other union has expressed interest in the last 6 years.
I don't want to hear the "we could form our own in house union", that was propossed years ago. Unless you have about 5 million to pitch in to kick it off.
The IBT 1108 was formed for fractionals and has proven what they are made of. The 1108 is a group of professional fractional pilots flying multi-million dollar rigs around the world with mult-million dollar passengers in the rear.
You have nothing to loose voting in the 1108 at Flops unless you are an SFO getting special sweet heart deals.

Tell us what you will loose.
Don't use the union dues, we have already lost far more than what the dues cost.

You will have much to gain. Someone to call when the company is pressuring you to do illegal ops. Someone that will inforce the manual and the contract that everyone agreed on. Flops won't even follow their own rules whenever it is convenient to break them with no repercussions. The FAA is not inforcing the rules, it will be left to us to self govern.

The 1108 is the only choice and a good choice.

 

[Guitar Guy]

Voice of Reason

I'd also add that the group of people involved with 1108 is far different from the Teamsters group that represented me at my last job. The leadership group of 1108 did a lot to reform the bad practices of the last leadership council, particularly highlighted by the fact we are under our own local instead of the previous 248.

I think it also speaks volume about this union that when the system-wide picket was held in early September, well over 80% of the union membership that had the day off participated. I think that's an incredible turnout and when you know some of those participants traveled significant distances to march, that says something about the nature of the union.

If you get good people in charge and get everyone involved, good things happen and the union is indeed a very important resource for all members.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

From what I hear, NJA pilots affected by Katrina were given a nice chunk of change from NJ, and their IBT "bretheren" told them not to touch it... This true?

 

[Dep676]

The Voice is just scared that soon he will be paying union dues to a union he/she does not like. I can not wait until that day either. Myabe when that happens we will lose some of those that are hooked up to the kool-aid IV.

 

[Diesel]

From what I hear, NJA pilots affected by Katrina were given a nice chunk of change from NJ, and their IBT "bretheren" told them not to touch it... This true?

WRONG

 

[cosmotheassman]

Wasn't the original question here about what other fractionals are saying about this NJA deal?

Another thread stolen by NJA BS...