FLIGHT OPTIONS (and only Flight Options) related PILOT discussion

[FRLWD]

B19's Hero

The following is from page 447 of Thomas Petzinger JR's book "Hard Landing".

"Lorenzo made plans to launch a new low-fare airline at Baltimore-Washington International Airport. Friendship Airlines, he called it. Fifty-seven members of Congress wrote letters to Transportation Secretary Frederico Pena demanding denial of an operating permit. Lorenzo appealed the order, but at last count Lorenzo's newly formed company had been deemed at every level of the process to be unfit to operate even a small airline."

 

[Frac Cap]

I'm sure by now everyone has read the AIN interview with M.S. Other than the ridiculous exaggeration about being a pilot, one other thing gets me burned up is his hobbies. Playing golf and managing his investments. Now what kind of hobby is managing your investments? Just who is he trying to snow? I just wish I had the money to do either.

Hey Michael, do you want to know what one of your pilots hobbies are? Mine are WATCHING golf, and managing my BILLS!

 

[B19 Flyer]

The following is from page 447 of Thomas Petzinger JR's book "Hard Landing".

"Lorenzo made plans to launch a new low-fare airline at Baltimore-Washington International Airport. Friendship Airlines, he called it. Fifty-seven members of Congress wrote letters to Transportation Secretary Frederico Pena demanding denial of an operating permit. Lorenzo appealed the order, but at last count Lorenzo's newly formed company had been deemed at every level of the process to be unfit to operate even a small airline."

New York Times:

"Capping months of opposition from Washington lawmakers and labor unions, a judge appointed by the Department of Transportation said that although Mr. Lorenzo's company, ATX Inc., had the money and management expertise to run a scheduled carrier, it "lacks the proper compliance disposition."

Huh, go figure. The judge stated that they had the money and the management expertise but lacked compliance.

My guess is that if every single airline had to go through the same compliance scrutiny that the unions forced on this application, there wouldn't be an airline flying today.

It's sad, because nobody talks about the thousands of jobs he saved at CAL as they were going under before he was involved, or Peoples Express or any of the others. I guess those jobs are meaningless.

 

[dime line]

moron

 

[B19 Flyer]

moron

There are two points of view for everything, some more credible than others. I'll take the NY Times over a book written by a union advocate to quote.

Oh, and while you are calling me a moron, please consider that I've been through what you are going through now twice before with layoffs both times. It's not fun, and it's sure as hell not a picnic. I feel your pain, but as a union advocate, you must have been advised by union leadership that it was going to be like this so you really don't have a leg to stand on to whine.

The emotions and anger you have now? That's nothing compared to what will happen if it all goes bad. You can blame anybody you want, but I chose to take my career into my own hands and carve the common denominator of my career changes out of my life. I simply won't venture into the world of a union carrier ever again.

You are getting what you asked for.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Let me simplify all of B19's rants in one quick sentence:

"I'm a scab and Frank Lorenzo is my hero!"

I'm not a scab but would have crossed the line in a heartbeat if faced with what those guys did. I certainly appreciate what Lorenzo did for CAL and the other airlines he merged and saved. The unions destroyed a lot of jobs at Eastern because of the egos. Lorenzo had already proven he could save and restructure airlines successfully.

Lorenzo stood behind the pilots that stepped over the line at CAL. Those pilots were able to have long and healthy careers.

The union historically only protects those at the top of the seniority lists. They have always been willing to sacrifice the botton third of the list.

You need to look at the entire picture, not just what happened at Eastern. He saved a lot of airline jobs that would have gone "poof" after deregulation had he not been there, and CAL would not exist today.

 

[AeroBoy]

I'm not a scab but would have crossed the line in a heartbeat if faced with what those guys did.

B19 -- not a scab, just a wannabe scab. Pathetic. uke:

 

[CA1900]

The union historically only protects those at the top of the seniority lists. They have always been willing to sacrifice the botton third of the list.

And yet, that's exactly the opposite of what's happened with Netjets and 1108. The most junior on the list got the biggest gains in the most recent contract.

You need to look at the entire picture, not just what happened at Eastern.

And you need to look at the entire picture, not just what happens with ALPA.

 

[50Pesos]

You need to look at the entire picture, not just what happened at Eastern. He saved a lot of airline jobs that would have gone "poof" after deregulation had he not been there, and CAL would not exist today.

Huh I flew with a man at Flops that started his career at eastern in the Connie, and stayed til the strike. He had a much different outlook than you on what happened there. All I can say he was a great man (JJ not Lorenzo), and would call you a liar.

 

[Hobbes]

JJ was great. I was privileged to share the flight deck with him on a few legs.

 

[SilverSurfer]

So let me get this straight...
Now that our company has been run into the ground, we are going to be left high & dry by those who "wanted nothing more than to help us unionize with them"?
Well, the competition is taken care of, time to move on...I called that one WAY back. Still have the utmost faith in OUR OWN union leaders, but I saw the writing on the wall from the others early on.
Really, did anyone think they were "helping" out of the goodness of their hearts?
Keep your friends close, your enemies closer, destroy them, then move on with your segment of the industry now secured.
Priceless.

Sport you really need to get your head out of that dark smelly place.

These people that you are accusing of all kinds of dastardly intentions are leaving us millions in the bank to complete our negotiations. Instead of running you mouth about something you know nothing about you should be thanking these pilots.

Pull your head out dude.

 

[PigPile]

There are two points of view for everything, some more credible than others. I'll take the NY Times over a book written by a union advocate to quote.

Ah, yea, the NY Times has quite the reputation these days doesn't it??

 

[B19 Flyer]

Ah, yea, the NY Times has quite the reputation these days doesn't it??

The quote came from a judge appointed by the DOT and the NY times simply printed it.

I know, next you are going to say that the judge wasn't reputable.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Huh I flew with a man at Flops that started his career at eastern in the Connie, and stayed til the strike. He had a much different outlook than you on what happened there. All I can say he was a great man (JJ not Lorenzo), and would call you a liar.

Back to Eastern again. What about the guys from CAL? You never hear them complain about the airline being saved.

 

[B19 Flyer]

And yet, that's exactly the opposite of what's happened with Netjets and 1108. The most junior on the list got the biggest gains in the most recent contract.



And you need to look at the entire picture, not just what happens with ALPA.

I do look at the big picture. 1108 hasn't been faced with cutbacks yet. When that happens, and it will, that will be the true face of the union.

When they need to make the decision, cut back pay for all and save jobs or keep the upper pay high and let the furloughs happen, where to YOU think they will stand?

Bottom third? Put your walking shoes on...

 

[Diesel]

I do look at the big picture. 1108 hasn't been faced with cutbacks yet. When that happens, and it will, that will be the true face of the union.

When they need to make the decision, cut back pay for all and save jobs or keep the upper pay high and let the furloughs happen, where to YOU think they will stand?

Bottom third? Put your walking shoes on...

I'd like to point out to those that read B19's rambling that the same was said when we got our industry leading contract. Even by friends of mine that work upstairs at CMH said we would bankrupt the company. I knew as those of us that work the line that the contract would bring better efficiency, a happier workforce, and more productivity.

NJ then moved into record profits within the first year after the contract was signed. The company and the pilots union were so happy with the progress they moved forward with the IBB which also passed.

What bothers me is that someone will see B19's ramblings and take it to heart. Not realizing his hidden agenda or his goal. I don't have a goal other than to be throughly annoyed that B19 tries to shoehorn airline history into the fractional model. That he uses quotes, and an agenda to scare or intimidate for his own goals.

You can read his ramblings but take it with a grain of salt.

 

[realityman]

Diesel, from what I've read here, no one believes one word he utters.

If people would quit responding to him, he'd go away. If folks haven't figured out by now that he really doesn't know ONE SINGLE FACT about 1108, Netjets, FLOPS, or the fractional industry in general, then nothing you or I or anyone else can say will convince them.

But it seems like everyone gets it. Folks, ignore him. He really gets off on hijacking these threads.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Diesel, from what I've read here, no one believes one word he utters.

If people would quit responding to him, he'd go away. If folks haven't figured out by now that he really doesn't know ONE SINGLE FACT about 1108, Netjets, FLOPS, or the fractional industry in general, then nothing you or I or anyone else can say will convince them.

But it seems like everyone gets it. Folks, ignore him. He really gets off on hijacking these threads.

So, what you are saying is that you don't want an opposing point of view.

Have another glass of union koolaide and continue to keep the turmoil going..

 

[B19 Flyer]

I'd like to point out to those that read B19's rambling that the same was said when we got our industry leading contract. Even by friends of mine that work upstairs at CMH said we would bankrupt the company. I knew as those of us that work the line that the contract would bring better efficiency, a happier workforce, and more productivity.

NJ then moved into record profits within the first year after the contract was signed. The company and the pilots union were so happy with the progress they moved forward with the IBB which also passed.

What bothers me is that someone will see B19's ramblings and take it to heart. Not realizing his hidden agenda or his goal. I don't have a goal other than to be throughly annoyed that B19 tries to shoehorn airline history into the fractional model. That he uses quotes, and an agenda to scare or intimidate for his own goals.

You can read his ramblings but take it with a grain of salt.

All of this was said during the "Industry Leading Contracts" signed by major airlines in the late '90s.

None of those contracts exist today, and the industry was shredded by them when things got tight.

NJ profits are peanuts by comparison to what the industry was like in those days, and none of us could have envisioned the speed of the downfall.

All of us could envision how bad it would get if unions chose inaction, which is what they did.

Times are very simular to how they were in '99. The economy is slowing down after a long period of growth, but the burdon of fuel right now can be crippling.

Let's see if this same conversation with NJ profits exists 18 months from now. It will be curious.

 

[ProFracPilot]

All of us could envision how bad it would get if unions chose inaction, which is what they did.

Times are very simular to how they were in '99. The economy is slowing down after a long period of growth, but the burdon of fuel right now can be crippling.

Let's see if this same conversation with NJ profits exists 18 months from now. It will be curious.

At the risk of feeding the troll, I'll offer an opinion.

B19, you're attempting to compare apples to oranges. The airlines sell seats as a commodity. We sell a service product. The only comparison between the business models is that both utilize aircraft to provide one aspect of the product. Your arguments are not germaine to this debate, therefore serve only one purpose: to spread disinformation and FUD in an attempt to disrupt the negotiations and divide the workforce at FlOps. Speaking as someone who was vehemently anti-union pre MS, I can assure you, you will not succeed.