FLIGHT OPTIONS (and only Flight Options) related PILOT discussion

[realityman]

PFP, the reason I'm encouraging people not to respond to B19 is because he has nothing new or original or relevant to add to the discussion. He claims I don't want an opposing view, but that's just twisting things.

You see, what you talk about in your post has been told to him over and over and over ad nauseum. How many times and by how many people does he have to be told how we aren't the same product as an airline, nor do we cater to the same clientele?

A valid opposing viewpoint would take this argument and attempt to disprove it, or at least invalidate the supporting pillars of the argument (our type of client, our business model, SOMETHING), but instead he just regurgitates the same thing again and again, always ignoring when someone points out the flaws in his logic.

I just had company recurrent. The economy is down. Our profits are good. Will be in RECORD profits? Maybe not, but we're continuing to make good money, even while the economy tanks. WE AREN'T AN AIRLINE! B19 just doesn't get it and never will. Well, maybe if I put it in bold blue lettering it'll sink in.

He's only here to stir the pot. Whether it's for entertainment or as anti-union FUD, he still hasn't contributed anything relevant. Ignore him and he'll go away.

 

[dime line]

All of this was said during the "Industry Leading Contracts" signed by major airlines in the late '90s.

None of those contracts exist today,

and the industry was shredded by them when things got tight.

NJ profits are peanuts by comparison to what the industry was like in those days, and none of us could have envisioned the speed of the downfall.

All of us could envision how bad it would get if unions chose inaction, which is what they did.

Times are very simular to how they were in '99. The economy is slowing down after a long period of growth, but the burdon of fuel right now can be crippling.

Let's see if this same conversation with NJ profits exists 18 months from now. It will be curious.

hey Dumba.. Do you think old Glenn knew things were getting tight? This moron (like you) made more than the company did in 06. I really love the last paragraph

United Airlines CEO Glenn Tilton received $39.7 million in 2006, including salary, bonus, incentives,
perks, above-market returns on deferred compensation and the estimated value of stock options and
awards granted during the year. At the same time, United Flight Attendants continue to experience lifechanging
wage, healthcare and work rule concessions, along with termination of their pension plan.
Incredibly, Tilton’s 2006 compensation exceeded the airline’s entire annual profit of $25 million reported​

by United’s parent company UAL, Inc (UAL

 

[realityman]

hey Dumba.. Do you think old Glenn knew things were getting tight? This moron (like you) made more than the company did in 06. I really love the last paragraph

United Airlines CEO Glenn Tilton received $39.7 million in 2006, including salary, bonus, incentives,
perks, above-market returns on deferred compensation and the estimated value of stock options and
awards granted during the year. At the same time, United Flight Attendants continue to experience lifechanging
wage, healthcare and work rule concessions, along with termination of their pension plan.
Incredibly, Tilton’s 2006 compensation exceeded the airline’s entire annual profit of $25 million reported​

by United’s parent company UAL, Inc (UAL

Awww, you know better than that Dime. You'll only confuse him with the facts. :laugh:

 

[dime line]

Company Focus
While pensions fall short, CEOs fly high

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Ford, GM, United Airlines, Continental. They're just four of the companies struggling with falling profits and pension problems as their executives get huge payouts.[/FONT]

By Michael Brush

At companies across the country, workers are watching their pensions dwindle.

At UALs (UALAQ, news, msgs) United Airlines, workers stand to lose more than $3 billion in promised benefits as the airline passes its pension obligations on to the government.

Unfunded pension obligations at Ford (F, news, msgs) have risen to a whopping $12.3 billion, and General Motors (GM, news, msgs) is looking at shortfalls of $7.5 billion.

In the executive suites of these companies, however, there's no pain to be found. United Airlines chief executive Glenn Tilton collected $3.4 million in compensation in the year leading up to the airlines 2002 bankruptcy. He received another $4.5 million of his pre-bankruptcy pay package in 2003-2005.

And while the pension pit grows at Ford, chief executive William Clay Ford Jr. has collected $53 million over the past three years. At GM, G. Richard Wagoner Jr. got $40.7 million over that period. Start investing with $100.

It's no secret that corporate bigwigs have paid themselves handsomely while stiffing their workers and sending jobs overseas. It's particularly galling, though, to see these same executives locking in their own lifetime of luxury while rolling the dice with their workers' retirement years.

Separate and unequal pensions
Consider the case of Continental Airlines (CAL, news, msgs). Last year, with Continental and other major airlines facing massive losses and the threat of bankruptcy, outgoing Continental chief Gordon Bethune took a $22 million lump-sum payment from his retirement plan. At the same time, Continental's pension plan is underfunded by $1.58 billion.

That situation with Bethune just crystallizes the whole unfairness of it all, says Paul Hodgson, a senior research associate with The Corporate Library, a Portland, Me. company that examines executive pay and corporate governance issues for investors. The amount that (executives) have earned over the years would seem to be enough to provide for their retirement, and the idea that you have to provide retirement benefits worth 50% of their annual compensation is absurd.

Pensions don't actually shrink unless a company files for bankruptcy and passes pension obligations on to the government. Pfizer (PFE, news, msgs) has a $2.98 billion pension plan shortfall, but $19.8 billion in cash. But seemingly healthy companies can be felled by unexpected events, as United discovered after Sept. 11, 2001. GM has $35.9 billion in cash on its books (much of it tied up in its financial arm), but earlier this spring analysts speculated openly about the likelihood of the automaker filing for bankruptcy protection.

With help from Standard & Poors, we took a look at the 20 companies currently running the most underfunded pension funds. We found that the top brass at some of those firms have rewarded themselves with retirement plans that promise millions of dollars in annual income for the rest of their lives.

Heres a look at some of the most glaring examples from a Standard & Poors ranking of the 20 S&P 1500 companies whose pension plans are most deeply in the red. (See the results in the table below).

 

[dime line]

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/P119362.asp

Check out the chart at the end of the article. Showes CEO salary vs the percentage of underfunding of the respected company's pension

 

[B19 Flyer]

PFP, the reason I'm encouraging people not to respond to B19 is because he has nothing new or original or relevant to add to the discussion. He claims I don't want an opposing view, but that's just twisting things.

You see, what you talk about in your post has been told to him over and over and over ad nauseum. How many times and by how many people does he have to be told how we aren't the same product as an airline, nor do we cater to the same clientele?

A valid opposing viewpoint would take this argument and attempt to disprove it, or at least invalidate the supporting pillars of the argument (our type of client, our business model, SOMETHING), but instead he just regurgitates the same thing again and again, always ignoring when someone points out the flaws in his logic.

I just had company recurrent. The economy is down. Our profits are good. Will be in RECORD profits? Maybe not, but we're continuing to make good money, even while the economy tanks. WE AREN'T AN AIRLINE! B19 just doesn't get it and never will. Well, maybe if I put it in bold blue lettering it'll sink in.

He's only here to stir the pot. Whether it's for entertainment or as anti-union FUD, he still hasn't contributed anything relevant. Ignore him and he'll go away.

Oh, but you are an airline.

The costs are identical in regards to certification, training and the adminstration of the schedule. Fracs are impacted by the exact same market forces. If airplanes are not sold, the model doesn't work because there is no growth. All it takes is a change in how corporate jets are written off and expensed in congress, and the whole model vanishes overnight. NJ was famously unprofitable for years, and a few quarters of success doesn't mean anything in the big picture.

If what you say is true, that NJ and fracs are not airlines, you have a lot of explaining to do to explain the massive losses NJ sustained and why it can't happen again.

If what you say is true, than the fractional model should never have been unprofitable under any circumstance.

Fracs are like any business and are affected by the ecomomy just like any other entity. The only ones that are fooling themselves are those that think it can't happen, and when it does, how the union is going to not react to save jobs.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Company Focus
While pensions fall short, CEOs fly high

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Ford, GM, United Airlines, Continental. They're just four of the companies struggling with falling profits and pension problems as their executives get huge payouts.[/FONT]

By Michael Brush

At companies across the country, workers are watching their pensions dwindle.

At UALs (UALAQ, news, msgs) United Airlines, workers stand to lose more than $3 billion in promised benefits as the airline passes its pension obligations on to the government.

Unfunded pension obligations at Ford (F, news, msgs) have risen to a whopping $12.3 billion, and General Motors (GM, news, msgs) is looking at shortfalls of $7.5 billion.

In the executive suites of these companies, however, there's no pain to be found. United Airlines chief executive Glenn Tilton collected $3.4 million in compensation in the year leading up to the airlines 2002 bankruptcy. He received another $4.5 million of his pre-bankruptcy pay package in 2003-2005.

And while the pension pit grows at Ford, chief executive William Clay Ford Jr. has collected $53 million over the past three years. At GM, G. Richard Wagoner Jr. got $40.7 million over that period. Start investing with $100.

It's no secret that corporate bigwigs have paid themselves handsomely while stiffing their workers and sending jobs overseas. It's particularly galling, though, to see these same executives locking in their own lifetime of luxury while rolling the dice with their workers' retirement years.

Separate and unequal pensions
Consider the case of Continental Airlines (CAL, news, msgs). Last year, with Continental and other major airlines facing massive losses and the threat of bankruptcy, outgoing Continental chief Gordon Bethune took a $22 million lump-sum payment from his retirement plan. At the same time, Continental's pension plan is underfunded by $1.58 billion.

That situation with Bethune just crystallizes the whole unfairness of it all, says Paul Hodgson, a senior research associate with The Corporate Library, a Portland, Me. company that examines executive pay and corporate governance issues for investors. The amount that (executives) have earned over the years would seem to be enough to provide for their retirement, and the idea that you have to provide retirement benefits worth 50% of their annual compensation is absurd.

Pensions don't actually shrink unless a company files for bankruptcy and passes pension obligations on to the government. Pfizer (PFE, news, msgs) has a $2.98 billion pension plan shortfall, but $19.8 billion in cash. But seemingly healthy companies can be felled by unexpected events, as United discovered after Sept. 11, 2001. GM has $35.9 billion in cash on its books (much of it tied up in its financial arm), but earlier this spring analysts speculated openly about the likelihood of the automaker filing for bankruptcy protection.

With help from Standard & Poors, we took a look at the 20 companies currently running the most underfunded pension funds. We found that the top brass at some of those firms have rewarded themselves with retirement plans that promise millions of dollars in annual income for the rest of their lives.

Heres a look at some of the most glaring examples from a Standard & Poors ranking of the 20 S&P 1500 companies whose pension plans are most deeply in the red. (See the results in the table below).

You need to go back to school and get a degree in finance. You fall into the same category as what NJW has said. You had the opportunity to invest in your career as NJW continues to say, and invest properly to get the skills necessary for you to run a large company.

Perhaps then you could earn the payday you desire by taking the responsibility of running a large multimillion dollar company.

Since you chose not to invest properly in your finance degree and only became a pilot, you are going to have to suffer with CEOs that did invest in their careers by getting their finance degree that make multi-million dollar salaries, and then buying airplanes to give you something to fly while you dream of their multi-million dollar paydays.

 

[Fozzy]

If what you say is true, than the fractional model should never have been unprofitable under any circumstance.

Who says NJA was unprofitable?
Bill Boisture?

 

[Guitar Guy]

Who says NJA was unprofitable?
Bill Boisture?

Especially with all of the money that went from NJA to keep NJE afloat until it caught traction.

 

[realityman]

Who says NJA was unprofitable?
Bill Boisture?

Bingo.