FLIGHT OPTIONS (and only Flight Options) related PILOT discussion

[Voice Of Reason]

Guess Mikey's letter was bunk (as figured). Any #s on how many pilots are ACTUALLY still around? Last time I checked the seniority list wasn't updated.
I'm looking toward Plans A, B, C, D, through Z in case MS puts this place under and runs, but hoping it won't be the case (that it goes under, NT that MS runs away).
Feel free to discuss (unless this thread gets moved to oblivion like every other thread not about one company in particular).

 

[Voice Of Reason]

So let me get this straight...
Now that our company has been run into the ground, we are going to be left high & dry by those who "wanted nothing more than to help us unionize with them"?
Well, the competition is taken care of, time to move on...I called that one WAY back. Still have the utmost faith in OUR OWN union leaders, but I saw the writing on the wall from the others early on.
Really, did anyone think they were "helping" out of the goodness of their hearts?
Keep your friends close, your enemies closer, destroy them, then move on with your segment of the industry now secured.
Priceless.

 

[dash_trash]

The one bright spot I see for the FLOPS pilots is that if the decert goes through, they will not have to go with hands out for their finances.

The flip side of that is ... the e-board has been allowing 100% of the FLOPS dues to go toward negotiations. Unless Teamsters National will allow this to continue, it will put the Union in a very precarious position regarding finances, as 25% of all dues received will go to national. PROBABLY (???) not leaving enough $$$ to cover in house councel and staff, and especially monthly negotiations, now that they are scheduled to occur more often.

Hope it works out.

 

[-FlyAuburn-]

Let's talk about NetJets now.

 

[Ultra Grump]

The one bright spot I see for the FLOPS pilots is that if the decert goes through, they will not have to go with hands out for their finances.

The flip side of that is ... the e-board has been allowing 100% of the FLOPS dues to go toward negotiations. Unless Teamsters National will allow this to continue, it will put the Union in a very precarious position regarding finances, as 25% of all dues received will go to national. PROBABLY (???) not leaving enough $$$ to cover in house councel and staff, and especially monthly negotiations, now that they are scheduled to occur more often.

Hope it works out.

We'll be leaving a pretty nice nest egg behind for you folks, primarily out of our dues. You're welcome.

 

[fischman]

If I'm not mistaken a substansial endowment to the FLOPS MEC has already been made.

Now we'll have to see how bad your pilots want a contract. We've given you all the tools.

 

[TurboHonda]

We'll be leaving a pretty nice nest egg behind for you folks, primarily out of our dues. You're welcome.

To all my NetJets brothers: Thank you. I mean that sincerely.

To all the FLOPS pilots that were willing to ride another’s coat tails: Wake up. The coat tails have gone away. It’s time to defecate or dismount.

I’m reserving all other opinions until after tonight’s teleconference.

 

[dash_trash]

We'll be leaving a pretty nice nest egg behind for you folks, primarily out of our dues. You're welcome.

No longer there but, will thank you for all the financial support given while I was. I'd heard about the proposed "nest egg" ... hopefully those who remain will put it to VERY good use!

 

[Ultra Grump]

DT - I probably should have quoted VOR rather than you in my response.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

I’m reserving all other opinions until after tonight’s teleconference.

?????

 

[nerdpilot]

Just heard NetJets has hired Flops Pilots who were anti-union, Non members in good standing????? Is there any truth to this? Very disapointing if it is true. How many members in good standing have they turned away? The guys they hired also have the rep of being hard to get along with.

 

[realityman]

I doubt there's any truth to that rumor. Would be along the lines of NJA turning people away based on their political views. Would be illegal I think.

And it would not be in NJA's best interests to hire people who are hard to get along with. It does happen, same as anywhere, but I doubt it's intentional.

Last I heard, no one is asked anything at any time about being pro or anti-union.

And no, our union has nothing to do with the hiring process. Since people aren't asked, and we don't do exit polls from the hiring process, there's no way to tell how many were turned away that were pro or anti-union.

Sorry VOR. I know it's not directly FLOPS-related, but wanted to stop the rumor before it got out of control, as they tend to do on these boards.

Now back to your regularly scheduled FLOPS discussions..........

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Now back to your regularly scheduled FLOPS discussions..........

lol...
Just waiting for Turbo's big "address" we are supposed to be in great anticipation for.

 

[fischman]

Just heard NetJets has hired Flops Pilots who were anti-union, Non members in good standing????? Is there any truth to this? Very disapointing if it is true. How many members in good standing have they turned away? The guys they hired also have the rep of being hard to get along with.

realityman is correct.

 

[netjetwife]

So let me get this straight... Please do as a serious correction is needed in your thinking. Now that our company has been run into the ground, (implying the NJ pilots are somehow involved is absurd) we are going to be left high & dry (false accusation) by those who "wanted nothing more than to help us unionize with them"? Voice's sarcasm is inappropriate and a slap in the face to those who helped bring the Options pilots to the bargaining table. Well, the competition is taken care of, time to move on...I called that one WAY back. Wrong then and now. Still have the utmost faith in OUR OWN union leaders, (who don't share his opinion) but I saw the writing on the wall from the others early on. Obviously needs glasses... Really, did anyone think they were "helping" out of the goodness of their hearts? Acting out of respect and concern for peers who share common interests in the industry is far from the ugly selfishness implied here. Keep your friends close, your enemies closer, destroy them, then move on with your segment of the industry now secured. Priceless. Hardly. Cheap shot is more like it. Here's a better quote for this post. With friends like that (VOR) who needs enemies. Luckily, VOR speaks only for himself and not the Options pilotgroup/leadership because he's way off target.

Fisch and Grump called it right when pointing out that the Options pilots have been left with far more money than they could raise on their own right now. (NJ folks know that's to be expected given the circumstances). Contract negotiations are a good example of the saying --it takes money to make money. To obtain a contract you have to get specialized help and make your situation known. Not only are NJA pilots providing the money, they're sharing their experience and connections with experts, too. Simply put, NJ pilots have invested in the Options pilotgroup. The goal is job security and a better future for both sets of aviators.

On March 10th a pilot in the position to know posted about the current situation: Cast of Thousands reported: Local 1108 just signed extended agreements with its Washington DC Legal Counsel (Roland and Bill Wilder), Lead Negotiating Counsel (Jon Wentz), and Professional Bargaining Consultant (Rick Dubinsky). In addition, Local 1108 just allocated additional funds to the Flight Options Pilot Negotiating Committee and set aside a large sum of cash for a Public Relations Campaign. (Note: PR efforts were very instrumental is settling the NJA contract in 2005).

Clearly that kind of serious money came from the saved dues of the NJA pilots. It will make a big difference for the Options pilots and cannot in any reasonable way be defined as the NJ pilots leaving the FO pilots "high and dry"... (That idea deserves the black boot). The NJ pilotgroup offered help out of a strong sense of fairness and a desire to see the bar raised across the industry. Actually, there was a lot of goodness involved and much time and effort donated by those from NJ that reached out to their industry peers. NJ folks continue to be concerned about the Options pilots, but they know that stepping out front again is in the best industry of the industry. Think of it like this: The fracs share the same neighborhood. If the NJ families can refinance their loans; they will have more available funds to support causes that will benefit the entire neighborhood. They will be out from under the restrictions of a landlord that doesn't share their concerns. The NJ folks will then be able to attend conferences and promote the interests of the whole subdivision, making it a better place for everyone, while their neighbors are still working on getting their own houses in order-- with lots of free advice and encouragement from those who have gone before them.

Turbo and Dash, I'm glad to see that y'all understand what has taken place in the recent past and can also objectively see what potential job security gains are ahead for all of our frac families as NJASAP continues the StrongUnion tradition of setting the bar higher in professional representation for frac pilots. The StrongUnion innovative, visionary approach to solving problems that beset the industry is still leading the way and is the best option for all of us--Options pilots, included. I'm relieved for their sake that their Union leaders recognize this and are also giving due credit that the Ops pilots have grown strong enough as a unified, determined group to stand up and fight for themselves--as Union peers, not dependents. Your progress is, rightfully so, a source of pride to many. NJA pilots and Options pilots are ready to solo. My respect and congrats to both groups! NJW

 

[ProFracPilot]

Clearly that kind of serious money came from the saved dues of the NJA pilots.

I, for one, am appreciative of the efforts put forth by S.U. and the NJA pilots that have made 1108 and ASAP a reality. Thank you all.

But this seed money(?) could be viewed as ASAP "paying it forward", if you will. As I understand it, it was at a very critical time in NJA negotiations when S.U. received a substantial sum of (much needed) money from a "well heeled" benefactor. Using this analogy, we can view our NJA bretheren as our "well heeled" benefactor.

I look forward to the day when we at FlOps have our opportunity to "pay it forward".

 

[netjetwife]

Pro, I don't disagree with you at all. I hope my post didn't sound condescending or patronizing... as that was definitely not my intention. I just wanted to set the record straight for VOR, or those new to the situation. I firmly believe in giving credit where credit is due. Along that line, while there were a few unusually generous donations, SU was still very much a grass roots movement. It was the camaraderie/unity of the group (pilots and spouses)that made the critical difference and enabled us to stick together (vote down the POSTA) when things got tough. A lot more than money has been paid forward, but then, I think that you do know that and are likewise envisioning your group having a future opportunity to offer guidance, encouragement/camaraderie and money to another frac group clawing their way up out of the pit.
Best Wishes,
NJW

PS It must be noted that the reason you can now "look forward" is because there's light at the end of the tunnel...

 

[fischman]

I, for one, am appreciative of the efforts put forth by S.U. and the NJA pilots that have made 1108 and ASAP a reality. Thank you all.

But this seed money(?) could be viewed as ASAP "paying it forward", if you will. As I understand it, it was at a very critical time in NJA negotiations when S.U. received a substantial sum of (much needed) money from a "well heeled" benefactor. Using this analogy, we can view our NJA brethren as our "well heeled" benefactor.

I look forward to the day when we at FlOps have our opportunity to "pay it forward".

PFP,

Your gratitude is appreciated.

I look forward to you guys "paying it forward" too.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Fisch and Grump called it right when pointing out that the Options pilots have been left with far more money than they could raise on their own right now. (NJ folks know that's to be expected given the circumstances). Contract negotiations are a good example of the saying --it takes money to make money. To obtain a contract you have to get specialized help and make your situation known. Not only are NJA pilots providing the money, they're sharing their experience and connections with experts, too. Simply put, NJ pilots have invested in the Options pilotgroup. The goal is job security and a better future for both sets of aviators.

On March 10th a pilot in the position to know posted about the current situation: Cast of Thousands reported: Local 1108 just signed extended agreements with its Washington DC Legal Counsel (Roland and Bill Wilder), Lead Negotiating Counsel (Jon Wentz), and Professional Bargaining Consultant (Rick Dubinsky). In addition, Local 1108 just allocated additional funds to the Flight Options Pilot Negotiating Committee and set aside a large sum of cash for a Public Relations Campaign. (Note: PR efforts were very instrumental is settling the NJA contract in 2005).

Clearly that kind of serious money came from the saved dues of the NJA pilots. It will make a big difference for the Options pilots and cannot in any reasonable way be defined as the NJ pilots leaving the FO pilots "high and dry"... (That idea deserves the black boot). The NJ pilotgroup offered help out of a strong sense of fairness and a desire to see the bar raised across the industry. Actually, there was a lot of goodness involved and much time and effort donated by those from NJ that reached out to their industry peers. NJ folks continue to be concerned about the Options pilots, but they know that stepping out front again is in the best industry of the industry. Think of it like this: The fracs share the same neighborhood. If the NJ families can refinance their loans; they will have more available funds to support causes that will benefit the entire neighborhood. They will be out from under the restrictions of a landlord that doesn't share their concerns. The NJ folks will then be able to attend conferences and promote the interests of the whole subdivision, making it a better place for everyone, while their neighbors are still working on getting their own houses in order-- with lots of free advice and encouragement from those who have gone before them.

Turbo and Dash, I'm glad to see that y'all understand what has taken place in the recent past and can also objectively see what potential job security gains are ahead for all of our frac families as NJASAP continues the StrongUnion tradition of setting the bar higher in professional representation for frac pilots. The StrongUnion innovative, visionary approach to solving problems that beset the industry is still leading the way and is the best option for all of us--Options pilots, included. I'm relieved for their sake that their Union leaders recognize this and are also giving due credit that the Ops pilots have grown strong enough as a unified, determined group to stand up and fight for themselves--as Union peers, not dependents. Your progress is, rightfully so, a source of pride to many. NJA pilots and Options pilots are ready to solo. My respect and congrats to both groups! NJW

Let me simplify all of NJW rants in one quick sentence:

"Hey Y'all, Watch this!"​

 

[FRLWD]

Let me simplify all of NJW rants in one quick sentence:

"Hey Y'all, Watch this!"​

Let me simplify all of B19's rants in one quick sentence:

"I'm a scab and Frank Lorenzo is my hero!"

 

[FRLWD]

B19's Hero

The following is from page 447 of Thomas Petzinger JR's book "Hard Landing".

"Lorenzo made plans to launch a new low-fare airline at Baltimore-Washington International Airport. Friendship Airlines, he called it. Fifty-seven members of Congress wrote letters to Transportation Secretary Frederico Pena demanding denial of an operating permit. Lorenzo appealed the order, but at last count Lorenzo's newly formed company had been deemed at every level of the process to be unfit to operate even a small airline."

 

[Frac Cap]

I'm sure by now everyone has read the AIN interview with M.S. Other than the ridiculous exaggeration about being a pilot, one other thing gets me burned up is his hobbies. Playing golf and managing his investments. Now what kind of hobby is managing your investments? Just who is he trying to snow? I just wish I had the money to do either.

Hey Michael, do you want to know what one of your pilots hobbies are? Mine are WATCHING golf, and managing my BILLS!

 

[B19 Flyer]

The following is from page 447 of Thomas Petzinger JR's book "Hard Landing".

"Lorenzo made plans to launch a new low-fare airline at Baltimore-Washington International Airport. Friendship Airlines, he called it. Fifty-seven members of Congress wrote letters to Transportation Secretary Frederico Pena demanding denial of an operating permit. Lorenzo appealed the order, but at last count Lorenzo's newly formed company had been deemed at every level of the process to be unfit to operate even a small airline."

New York Times:

"Capping months of opposition from Washington lawmakers and labor unions, a judge appointed by the Department of Transportation said that although Mr. Lorenzo's company, ATX Inc., had the money and management expertise to run a scheduled carrier, it "lacks the proper compliance disposition."

Huh, go figure. The judge stated that they had the money and the management expertise but lacked compliance.

My guess is that if every single airline had to go through the same compliance scrutiny that the unions forced on this application, there wouldn't be an airline flying today.

It's sad, because nobody talks about the thousands of jobs he saved at CAL as they were going under before he was involved, or Peoples Express or any of the others. I guess those jobs are meaningless.

 

[dime line]

moron

 

[B19 Flyer]

moron

There are two points of view for everything, some more credible than others. I'll take the NY Times over a book written by a union advocate to quote.

Oh, and while you are calling me a moron, please consider that I've been through what you are going through now twice before with layoffs both times. It's not fun, and it's sure as hell not a picnic. I feel your pain, but as a union advocate, you must have been advised by union leadership that it was going to be like this so you really don't have a leg to stand on to whine.

The emotions and anger you have now? That's nothing compared to what will happen if it all goes bad. You can blame anybody you want, but I chose to take my career into my own hands and carve the common denominator of my career changes out of my life. I simply won't venture into the world of a union carrier ever again.

You are getting what you asked for.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Let me simplify all of B19's rants in one quick sentence:

"I'm a scab and Frank Lorenzo is my hero!"

I'm not a scab but would have crossed the line in a heartbeat if faced with what those guys did. I certainly appreciate what Lorenzo did for CAL and the other airlines he merged and saved. The unions destroyed a lot of jobs at Eastern because of the egos. Lorenzo had already proven he could save and restructure airlines successfully.

Lorenzo stood behind the pilots that stepped over the line at CAL. Those pilots were able to have long and healthy careers.

The union historically only protects those at the top of the seniority lists. They have always been willing to sacrifice the botton third of the list.

You need to look at the entire picture, not just what happened at Eastern. He saved a lot of airline jobs that would have gone "poof" after deregulation had he not been there, and CAL would not exist today.

 

[AeroBoy]

I'm not a scab but would have crossed the line in a heartbeat if faced with what those guys did.

B19 -- not a scab, just a wannabe scab. Pathetic. uke:

 

[CA1900]

The union historically only protects those at the top of the seniority lists. They have always been willing to sacrifice the botton third of the list.

And yet, that's exactly the opposite of what's happened with Netjets and 1108. The most junior on the list got the biggest gains in the most recent contract.

You need to look at the entire picture, not just what happened at Eastern.

And you need to look at the entire picture, not just what happens with ALPA.

 

[50Pesos]

You need to look at the entire picture, not just what happened at Eastern. He saved a lot of airline jobs that would have gone "poof" after deregulation had he not been there, and CAL would not exist today.

Huh I flew with a man at Flops that started his career at eastern in the Connie, and stayed til the strike. He had a much different outlook than you on what happened there. All I can say he was a great man (JJ not Lorenzo), and would call you a liar.

 

[Hobbes]

JJ was great. I was privileged to share the flight deck with him on a few legs.