FLIGHT OPTIONS (and only Flight Options) related PILOT discussion

[SilverSurfer]

So let me get this straight...
Now that our company has been run into the ground, we are going to be left high & dry by those who "wanted nothing more than to help us unionize with them"?
Well, the competition is taken care of, time to move on...I called that one WAY back. Still have the utmost faith in OUR OWN union leaders, but I saw the writing on the wall from the others early on.
Really, did anyone think they were "helping" out of the goodness of their hearts?
Keep your friends close, your enemies closer, destroy them, then move on with your segment of the industry now secured.
Priceless.

Sport you really need to get your head out of that dark smelly place.

These people that you are accusing of all kinds of dastardly intentions are leaving us millions in the bank to complete our negotiations. Instead of running you mouth about something you know nothing about you should be thanking these pilots.

Pull your head out dude.

 

[PigPile]

There are two points of view for everything, some more credible than others. I'll take the NY Times over a book written by a union advocate to quote.

Ah, yea, the NY Times has quite the reputation these days doesn't it??

 

[B19 Flyer]

Ah, yea, the NY Times has quite the reputation these days doesn't it??

The quote came from a judge appointed by the DOT and the NY times simply printed it.

I know, next you are going to say that the judge wasn't reputable.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Huh I flew with a man at Flops that started his career at eastern in the Connie, and stayed til the strike. He had a much different outlook than you on what happened there. All I can say he was a great man (JJ not Lorenzo), and would call you a liar.

Back to Eastern again. What about the guys from CAL? You never hear them complain about the airline being saved.

 

[B19 Flyer]

And yet, that's exactly the opposite of what's happened with Netjets and 1108. The most junior on the list got the biggest gains in the most recent contract.



And you need to look at the entire picture, not just what happens with ALPA.

I do look at the big picture. 1108 hasn't been faced with cutbacks yet. When that happens, and it will, that will be the true face of the union.

When they need to make the decision, cut back pay for all and save jobs or keep the upper pay high and let the furloughs happen, where to YOU think they will stand?

Bottom third? Put your walking shoes on...

 

[Diesel]

I do look at the big picture. 1108 hasn't been faced with cutbacks yet. When that happens, and it will, that will be the true face of the union.

When they need to make the decision, cut back pay for all and save jobs or keep the upper pay high and let the furloughs happen, where to YOU think they will stand?

Bottom third? Put your walking shoes on...

I'd like to point out to those that read B19's rambling that the same was said when we got our industry leading contract. Even by friends of mine that work upstairs at CMH said we would bankrupt the company. I knew as those of us that work the line that the contract would bring better efficiency, a happier workforce, and more productivity.

NJ then moved into record profits within the first year after the contract was signed. The company and the pilots union were so happy with the progress they moved forward with the IBB which also passed.

What bothers me is that someone will see B19's ramblings and take it to heart. Not realizing his hidden agenda or his goal. I don't have a goal other than to be throughly annoyed that B19 tries to shoehorn airline history into the fractional model. That he uses quotes, and an agenda to scare or intimidate for his own goals.

You can read his ramblings but take it with a grain of salt.

 

[realityman]

Diesel, from what I've read here, no one believes one word he utters.

If people would quit responding to him, he'd go away. If folks haven't figured out by now that he really doesn't know ONE SINGLE FACT about 1108, Netjets, FLOPS, or the fractional industry in general, then nothing you or I or anyone else can say will convince them.

But it seems like everyone gets it. Folks, ignore him. He really gets off on hijacking these threads.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Diesel, from what I've read here, no one believes one word he utters.

If people would quit responding to him, he'd go away. If folks haven't figured out by now that he really doesn't know ONE SINGLE FACT about 1108, Netjets, FLOPS, or the fractional industry in general, then nothing you or I or anyone else can say will convince them.

But it seems like everyone gets it. Folks, ignore him. He really gets off on hijacking these threads.

So, what you are saying is that you don't want an opposing point of view.

Have another glass of union koolaide and continue to keep the turmoil going..

 

[B19 Flyer]

I'd like to point out to those that read B19's rambling that the same was said when we got our industry leading contract. Even by friends of mine that work upstairs at CMH said we would bankrupt the company. I knew as those of us that work the line that the contract would bring better efficiency, a happier workforce, and more productivity.

NJ then moved into record profits within the first year after the contract was signed. The company and the pilots union were so happy with the progress they moved forward with the IBB which also passed.

What bothers me is that someone will see B19's ramblings and take it to heart. Not realizing his hidden agenda or his goal. I don't have a goal other than to be throughly annoyed that B19 tries to shoehorn airline history into the fractional model. That he uses quotes, and an agenda to scare or intimidate for his own goals.

You can read his ramblings but take it with a grain of salt.

All of this was said during the "Industry Leading Contracts" signed by major airlines in the late '90s.

None of those contracts exist today, and the industry was shredded by them when things got tight.

NJ profits are peanuts by comparison to what the industry was like in those days, and none of us could have envisioned the speed of the downfall.

All of us could envision how bad it would get if unions chose inaction, which is what they did.

Times are very simular to how they were in '99. The economy is slowing down after a long period of growth, but the burdon of fuel right now can be crippling.

Let's see if this same conversation with NJ profits exists 18 months from now. It will be curious.

 

[ProFracPilot]

All of us could envision how bad it would get if unions chose inaction, which is what they did.

Times are very simular to how they were in '99. The economy is slowing down after a long period of growth, but the burdon of fuel right now can be crippling.

Let's see if this same conversation with NJ profits exists 18 months from now. It will be curious.

At the risk of feeding the troll, I'll offer an opinion.

B19, you're attempting to compare apples to oranges. The airlines sell seats as a commodity. We sell a service product. The only comparison between the business models is that both utilize aircraft to provide one aspect of the product. Your arguments are not germaine to this debate, therefore serve only one purpose: to spread disinformation and FUD in an attempt to disrupt the negotiations and divide the workforce at FlOps. Speaking as someone who was vehemently anti-union pre MS, I can assure you, you will not succeed.

 

[realityman]

PFP, the reason I'm encouraging people not to respond to B19 is because he has nothing new or original or relevant to add to the discussion. He claims I don't want an opposing view, but that's just twisting things.

You see, what you talk about in your post has been told to him over and over and over ad nauseum. How many times and by how many people does he have to be told how we aren't the same product as an airline, nor do we cater to the same clientele?

A valid opposing viewpoint would take this argument and attempt to disprove it, or at least invalidate the supporting pillars of the argument (our type of client, our business model, SOMETHING), but instead he just regurgitates the same thing again and again, always ignoring when someone points out the flaws in his logic.

I just had company recurrent. The economy is down. Our profits are good. Will be in RECORD profits? Maybe not, but we're continuing to make good money, even while the economy tanks. WE AREN'T AN AIRLINE! B19 just doesn't get it and never will. Well, maybe if I put it in bold blue lettering it'll sink in.

He's only here to stir the pot. Whether it's for entertainment or as anti-union FUD, he still hasn't contributed anything relevant. Ignore him and he'll go away.

 

[dime line]

All of this was said during the "Industry Leading Contracts" signed by major airlines in the late '90s.

None of those contracts exist today,

and the industry was shredded by them when things got tight.

NJ profits are peanuts by comparison to what the industry was like in those days, and none of us could have envisioned the speed of the downfall.

All of us could envision how bad it would get if unions chose inaction, which is what they did.

Times are very simular to how they were in '99. The economy is slowing down after a long period of growth, but the burdon of fuel right now can be crippling.

Let's see if this same conversation with NJ profits exists 18 months from now. It will be curious.

hey Dumba.. Do you think old Glenn knew things were getting tight? This moron (like you) made more than the company did in 06. I really love the last paragraph

United Airlines CEO Glenn Tilton received $39.7 million in 2006, including salary, bonus, incentives,
perks, above-market returns on deferred compensation and the estimated value of stock options and
awards granted during the year. At the same time, United Flight Attendants continue to experience lifechanging
wage, healthcare and work rule concessions, along with termination of their pension plan.
Incredibly, Tilton’s 2006 compensation exceeded the airline’s entire annual profit of $25 million reported​

by United’s parent company UAL, Inc (UAL

 

[realityman]

hey Dumba.. Do you think old Glenn knew things were getting tight? This moron (like you) made more than the company did in 06. I really love the last paragraph

United Airlines CEO Glenn Tilton received $39.7 million in 2006, including salary, bonus, incentives,
perks, above-market returns on deferred compensation and the estimated value of stock options and
awards granted during the year. At the same time, United Flight Attendants continue to experience lifechanging
wage, healthcare and work rule concessions, along with termination of their pension plan.
Incredibly, Tilton’s 2006 compensation exceeded the airline’s entire annual profit of $25 million reported​

by United’s parent company UAL, Inc (UAL

Awww, you know better than that Dime. You'll only confuse him with the facts. :laugh:

 

[dime line]

Company Focus
While pensions fall short, CEOs fly high

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Ford, GM, United Airlines, Continental. They're just four of the companies struggling with falling profits and pension problems as their executives get huge payouts.[/FONT]

By Michael Brush

At companies across the country, workers are watching their pensions dwindle.

At UALs (UALAQ, news, msgs) United Airlines, workers stand to lose more than $3 billion in promised benefits as the airline passes its pension obligations on to the government.

Unfunded pension obligations at Ford (F, news, msgs) have risen to a whopping $12.3 billion, and General Motors (GM, news, msgs) is looking at shortfalls of $7.5 billion.

In the executive suites of these companies, however, there's no pain to be found. United Airlines chief executive Glenn Tilton collected $3.4 million in compensation in the year leading up to the airlines 2002 bankruptcy. He received another $4.5 million of his pre-bankruptcy pay package in 2003-2005.

And while the pension pit grows at Ford, chief executive William Clay Ford Jr. has collected $53 million over the past three years. At GM, G. Richard Wagoner Jr. got $40.7 million over that period. Start investing with $100.

It's no secret that corporate bigwigs have paid themselves handsomely while stiffing their workers and sending jobs overseas. It's particularly galling, though, to see these same executives locking in their own lifetime of luxury while rolling the dice with their workers' retirement years.

Separate and unequal pensions
Consider the case of Continental Airlines (CAL, news, msgs). Last year, with Continental and other major airlines facing massive losses and the threat of bankruptcy, outgoing Continental chief Gordon Bethune took a $22 million lump-sum payment from his retirement plan. At the same time, Continental's pension plan is underfunded by $1.58 billion.

That situation with Bethune just crystallizes the whole unfairness of it all, says Paul Hodgson, a senior research associate with The Corporate Library, a Portland, Me. company that examines executive pay and corporate governance issues for investors. The amount that (executives) have earned over the years would seem to be enough to provide for their retirement, and the idea that you have to provide retirement benefits worth 50% of their annual compensation is absurd.

Pensions don't actually shrink unless a company files for bankruptcy and passes pension obligations on to the government. Pfizer (PFE, news, msgs) has a $2.98 billion pension plan shortfall, but $19.8 billion in cash. But seemingly healthy companies can be felled by unexpected events, as United discovered after Sept. 11, 2001. GM has $35.9 billion in cash on its books (much of it tied up in its financial arm), but earlier this spring analysts speculated openly about the likelihood of the automaker filing for bankruptcy protection.

With help from Standard & Poors, we took a look at the 20 companies currently running the most underfunded pension funds. We found that the top brass at some of those firms have rewarded themselves with retirement plans that promise millions of dollars in annual income for the rest of their lives.

Heres a look at some of the most glaring examples from a Standard & Poors ranking of the 20 S&P 1500 companies whose pension plans are most deeply in the red. (See the results in the table below).

 

[dime line]

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/P119362.asp

Check out the chart at the end of the article. Showes CEO salary vs the percentage of underfunding of the respected company's pension

 

[B19 Flyer]

PFP, the reason I'm encouraging people not to respond to B19 is because he has nothing new or original or relevant to add to the discussion. He claims I don't want an opposing view, but that's just twisting things.

You see, what you talk about in your post has been told to him over and over and over ad nauseum. How many times and by how many people does he have to be told how we aren't the same product as an airline, nor do we cater to the same clientele?

A valid opposing viewpoint would take this argument and attempt to disprove it, or at least invalidate the supporting pillars of the argument (our type of client, our business model, SOMETHING), but instead he just regurgitates the same thing again and again, always ignoring when someone points out the flaws in his logic.

I just had company recurrent. The economy is down. Our profits are good. Will be in RECORD profits? Maybe not, but we're continuing to make good money, even while the economy tanks. WE AREN'T AN AIRLINE! B19 just doesn't get it and never will. Well, maybe if I put it in bold blue lettering it'll sink in.

He's only here to stir the pot. Whether it's for entertainment or as anti-union FUD, he still hasn't contributed anything relevant. Ignore him and he'll go away.

Oh, but you are an airline.

The costs are identical in regards to certification, training and the adminstration of the schedule. Fracs are impacted by the exact same market forces. If airplanes are not sold, the model doesn't work because there is no growth. All it takes is a change in how corporate jets are written off and expensed in congress, and the whole model vanishes overnight. NJ was famously unprofitable for years, and a few quarters of success doesn't mean anything in the big picture.

If what you say is true, that NJ and fracs are not airlines, you have a lot of explaining to do to explain the massive losses NJ sustained and why it can't happen again.

If what you say is true, than the fractional model should never have been unprofitable under any circumstance.

Fracs are like any business and are affected by the ecomomy just like any other entity. The only ones that are fooling themselves are those that think it can't happen, and when it does, how the union is going to not react to save jobs.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Company Focus
While pensions fall short, CEOs fly high

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Ford, GM, United Airlines, Continental. They're just four of the companies struggling with falling profits and pension problems as their executives get huge payouts.[/FONT]

By Michael Brush

At companies across the country, workers are watching their pensions dwindle.

At UALs (UALAQ, news, msgs) United Airlines, workers stand to lose more than $3 billion in promised benefits as the airline passes its pension obligations on to the government.

Unfunded pension obligations at Ford (F, news, msgs) have risen to a whopping $12.3 billion, and General Motors (GM, news, msgs) is looking at shortfalls of $7.5 billion.

In the executive suites of these companies, however, there's no pain to be found. United Airlines chief executive Glenn Tilton collected $3.4 million in compensation in the year leading up to the airlines 2002 bankruptcy. He received another $4.5 million of his pre-bankruptcy pay package in 2003-2005.

And while the pension pit grows at Ford, chief executive William Clay Ford Jr. has collected $53 million over the past three years. At GM, G. Richard Wagoner Jr. got $40.7 million over that period. Start investing with $100.

It's no secret that corporate bigwigs have paid themselves handsomely while stiffing their workers and sending jobs overseas. It's particularly galling, though, to see these same executives locking in their own lifetime of luxury while rolling the dice with their workers' retirement years.

Separate and unequal pensions
Consider the case of Continental Airlines (CAL, news, msgs). Last year, with Continental and other major airlines facing massive losses and the threat of bankruptcy, outgoing Continental chief Gordon Bethune took a $22 million lump-sum payment from his retirement plan. At the same time, Continental's pension plan is underfunded by $1.58 billion.

That situation with Bethune just crystallizes the whole unfairness of it all, says Paul Hodgson, a senior research associate with The Corporate Library, a Portland, Me. company that examines executive pay and corporate governance issues for investors. The amount that (executives) have earned over the years would seem to be enough to provide for their retirement, and the idea that you have to provide retirement benefits worth 50% of their annual compensation is absurd.

Pensions don't actually shrink unless a company files for bankruptcy and passes pension obligations on to the government. Pfizer (PFE, news, msgs) has a $2.98 billion pension plan shortfall, but $19.8 billion in cash. But seemingly healthy companies can be felled by unexpected events, as United discovered after Sept. 11, 2001. GM has $35.9 billion in cash on its books (much of it tied up in its financial arm), but earlier this spring analysts speculated openly about the likelihood of the automaker filing for bankruptcy protection.

With help from Standard & Poors, we took a look at the 20 companies currently running the most underfunded pension funds. We found that the top brass at some of those firms have rewarded themselves with retirement plans that promise millions of dollars in annual income for the rest of their lives.

Heres a look at some of the most glaring examples from a Standard & Poors ranking of the 20 S&P 1500 companies whose pension plans are most deeply in the red. (See the results in the table below).

You need to go back to school and get a degree in finance. You fall into the same category as what NJW has said. You had the opportunity to invest in your career as NJW continues to say, and invest properly to get the skills necessary for you to run a large company.

Perhaps then you could earn the payday you desire by taking the responsibility of running a large multimillion dollar company.

Since you chose not to invest properly in your finance degree and only became a pilot, you are going to have to suffer with CEOs that did invest in their careers by getting their finance degree that make multi-million dollar salaries, and then buying airplanes to give you something to fly while you dream of their multi-million dollar paydays.

 

[Fozzy]

If what you say is true, than the fractional model should never have been unprofitable under any circumstance.

Who says NJA was unprofitable?
Bill Boisture?

 

[Guitar Guy]

Who says NJA was unprofitable?
Bill Boisture?

Especially with all of the money that went from NJA to keep NJE afloat until it caught traction.

 

[realityman]

Who says NJA was unprofitable?
Bill Boisture?

Bingo.

 

[realityman]

Especially with all of the money that went from NJA to keep NJE afloat until it caught traction.

Bingo again. Once again folks, B19 has NO FACTS about anything at NJA, including our union.

Don't respond. He's just stirring the pot.

 

[netjetwife]

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/P119362.asp

Check out the chart at the end of the article. Showes CEO salary vs the percentage of underfunding of the respected company's pension

Excellent research/post, DL!! It's a dose of fresh-air reality amidst the reeking FUD. No wonder the phrase "corporate greed" is so well-known... My family experienced firsthand (at AA) the executive hypocrisy of slashing workers and their funds while rewarding and protecting themselves. No reasonable person out there with a shred of feeling for workers can view that list and not be thoroughly disgusted. Anyone who defends those CEOs and their immoral behavior should be given the black boot.

Lockheed's on the list--interesting. I just came from dropping my neighbor/good friend (and 2 kids) off at the airport. She works for LM supposedly part-time (20hrs) but she's been lucky lately to keep it at 40 hrs because of the company's do more w/less attitude. (Something many frac pilots know all too well.) Her husband (also at LM) couldn't make the trip to see family because of work, 50-60 hrs a week routinely and sometimes even 70hrs. LM doesn't pay overtime, either.... She asked about my husband coming home today. When I explained about extended days and the extra pay I watched her face turn green... Reality-check: You guys think she stood there telling me how awful unions/contracts are.... We've been friends for years; she's happy for the NJ pilots and pulling for the Options pilots. As a fed-up, burned-out worker she thinks the Options pilots are lucky to have a chance to negotiate their pay and work rules.

I wonder how much MS has been paid to drag down the company, lie in news interviews and deny the Options pilots a professional, industry standard salary? I bet its enough to make the pilots and their families want to ....uke: Anyone suggesting that frac pilots are greedy, selfish workers out to screw the other employees and the company are full of FUD....and other equally disgusting matter. Outrageous! Reality-check: We have frac families who qualify for govt assistance...:angryfire Frac pilots are seeking nothing more than fair work rules and wages in line with their skill and responsibilities. Not to mention the difficult lifestyle of being gone from home so much. Options pilots just want the going rate that the majority of their industry peers are making. In a climate of documented corporate/executive greed what sane person could expect the Options pilots to take the word of their proven-liar CEO when it comes to pilot wages?!

 

[B19 Flyer]

Who says NJA was unprofitable?
Bill Boisture?

It was Richard Santulli that publically stated the losses in this very well publicized article.

I'm certain that somebody will question this document too.

(Edited to fit the space.)
______________________________
Buffett's Baby Is Taking a Bumpy Ride


"Although NetJets is by far the leader in its industry, the company lost $80 million last year, after scratching out a profit of $10 million in 2004. (It also lost money in 2001, 2002 and 2003, according to the company.) ".

 

[B19 Flyer]

Options pilots just want the going rate that the majority of their industry peers are making.

Considering your husband works for NJ, how do YOU know that all they want is the going rate.

NO union wants the going rate, and that is why negotiations get dragged out for years and the company gets torn to shreds. But then again, you ARE the self proclaimed expert on pilot wages because they have invested properly in the careers.

 

[theskyking]

How do YOU know what they want, B19? Unless you are part of the management bargaining team, you have less credibility in this argument than NJW. At least she is married to someone with his finger on the pulse of what's going on. Where's your finger? What are your ties to the fractional industry?

 

[fischman]

Considering your husband works for NJ, how do YOU know that all they want is the going rate.

NO union wants the going rate, and that is why negotiations get dragged out for years and the company gets torn to shreds. But then again, you ARE the self proclaimed expert on pilot wages because they have invested properly in the careers.

That is the stupidest things I have EVER read. Do you ever think about what you post? As Americans, EVERYBODY wants more. It is called captialism.

 

[Fozzy]

NO union wants the going rate, and that is why negotiations get dragged out for years and the company gets torn to shreds.

So from your logic NJA should be doing worse now than before the 05 CBA?!?
"torn to shreds", your words.

You are really bad at your job troll.

I hear Hoffa may need some message board help. Why don't you go apply. :laugh:

 

[B19 Flyer]

How do YOU know what they want, B19? Unless you are part of the management bargaining team, you have less credibility in this argument than NJW. At least she is married to someone with his finger on the pulse of what's going on. Where's your finger? What are your ties to the fractional industry?

Every union wants "Industry Leading Contract" plus $1.00. It doesn't make any difference what the company can afford, what they fly, or the business model. That's the union mantra, always has been always will be. It's an easy formula. The question that I have to ask you is, "Why didn't you know that?"

 

[50Pesos]

Oh, but you are an airline.

The costs are identical in regards to certification, training and the adminstration of the schedule. Fracs are impacted by the exact same market forces. If airplanes are not sold, the model doesn't work because there is no growth. All it takes is a change in how corporate jets are written off and expensed in congress, and the whole model vanishes overnight. NJ was famously unprofitable for years, and a few quarters of success doesn't mean anything in the big picture.

If what you say is true, that NJ and fracs are not airlines, you have a lot of explaining to do to explain the massive losses NJ sustained and why it can't happen again.

If what you say is true, than the fractional model should never have been unprofitable under any circumstance.

Fracs are like any business and are affected by the ecomomy just like any other entity. The only ones that are fooling themselves are those that think it can't happen, and when it does, how the union is going to not react to save jobs.

It all has to do with your sales force. If your face to face people could care less about covering your mistakes then customer satifaction goes down. They tell all their rich friends that they suck and go elsewhere.

As opposed to when we all were VERY prideful of who we were and worked for. We would all go above and beyond for company and passengers alike. It was a win-win.

MS needs to figure out where the picture meets the frame. The salemen might sell them a Monet but we keep it contained and happy.

 

[B19 Flyer]

So from your logic NJA should be doing worse now than before the 05 CBA?!?
"torn to shreds", your words.

You are really bad at your job troll.

I hear Hoffa may need some message board help. Why don't you go apply. :laugh:

The fact is, that NJ lost money during negotiations and hemorrhaged money for the best part of five years.

It's clear that RS blamed the union for a large chunk of that publically. The fact that NJ has made money for a couple of quarters does not mean that the contract is successful. The true measure will be when the going gets tough.

1108 can't even get a basic TA going with FLOPS. It will be a joke if they get one and money gets tight. 1108 won't get it done then either and they will fail just as miserably as they are now.