Flex's new bases

[el raton]

I never said that. I said that KR is a master of the illusion of choice. There is no doubt that he is a very smart and charismatic leader, but you just keep paying attention to his right hand that holds the changes you want like added bases, while his left hand will be changing things like longer / extended tours, or shorter off times. That's the illusion... and it is just the beginning. Before you know it, a lot will have changed, and you will be asking yourself how the hell it all happened.

There you are wrong again. The change in schedules at secondary bases were explained and discussed at length. We were given the chance to accept it or not.

Don't forget that the system still favors seniority. If you're in the top third, you most likely will get a favorable schedule.

Every flex pilot here had a choice whether to accept what was offered or not to. What was offered was more than flex has ever offered in 18 years and most of us are happy with it.

 

[el raton]

Maybe if we had the IBT representing us, they could have negotiated this as well. I wonder what we would have had to give up for bases? 20% of our pay? 401k match? Is job security really worth these kind of sacrifices when you can just go somewhere else?

 

[doh]

I never said that. I said that KR is a master of the illusion of choice. There is no doubt that he is a very smart and charismatic leader, but you just keep paying attention to his right hand that holds the changes you want like added bases, while his left hand will be changing things like longer / extended tours, or shorter off times. That's the illusion... and it is just the beginning. Before you know it, a lot will have changed, and you will be asking yourself how the hell it all happened.

The only unexpected thing was 4 day min off period. I and the people I discussed the possibilities with thought the min would be 5. Since green lines will remain at 14-16 days (you can't be forced to higher yields), it is possible during bid period (BP) to bid period transition to be awarded 8-4-8-4-8-4-8 on two consecutive green lines. In order for that perfect storm to occur, you will have had 8 off prior and you will have 8 off following. Again, the yield hasn't changed, but that is kind of an ugly spud of a schedule. My personal feeling (I bid junior) is that this won't happen very often. We have peak days that need coverage through out the busy season and they are spread out enough to prevent this type award becoming the norm. I'm pretty excited about this. It is a very good change!

 

[slowtation capt]

401k match?

The company took the 401K match away well before we had a contract. The Union had nothing to do with it. KR lied in his meeting saying the Union negotiated it away.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

el raton,
Yes we did give up alot in the first contract, but it still was a big improvement for us. Some of us got a 48% increase over the term of the contract. Yes, having the protections of the 1108 does come with a price. And yes, having job security is not free.
As far as "just go somewhere else", I'll stick around and try to make FO a better place for ALL.

 

[DirtyBeech]

The only unexpected thing was 4 day min off period. I and the people I discussed the possibilities with thought the min would be 5. Since green lines will remain at 14-16 days (you can't be forced to higher yields), it is possible during bid period (BP) to bid period transition to be awarded 8-4-8-4-8-4-8 on two consecutive green lines. In order for that perfect storm to occur, you will have had 8 off prior and you will have 8 off following. Again, the yield hasn't changed, but that is kind of an ugly spud of a schedule. My personal feeling (I bid junior) is that this won't happen very often. We have peak days that need coverage through out the busy season and they are spread out enough to prevent this type award becoming the norm. I'm pretty excited about this. It is a very good change!

Mostly this. Peak will suck. More than normal. You'll have to watch how you end your bid months now as the optimizer tries to front load each month for some reason I have forgotten. And 8-4-8-4 is possible, but keep in mind other things like 5-3-8 will now be a scheduling possibility. Fans of the 5-3-6 can now up their game.

The bases are a good thing. I think that jacking with the bid rules will have unintended consequences that seem minor now, but will create a lot of frustration down the road.

 

[Brit]

I agree the bases are a good thing. Very long overdue.

 

[Praetorian]

Maybe if we had the IBT representing us, they could have negotiated this as well. I wonder what we would have had to give up for bases? 20% of our pay? 401k match? Is job security really worth these kind of sacrifices when you can just go somewhere else?

OK, so I'm really getting tired of you taking pot-shots at my union.

This is what we have in writing in the CBA my union negotiated. Here are the79 crew bases we can move among - two times per year every year at our individual discretion - snow bird clause. All of this is a cut and paste from our CBA:

13.4 Identification of Crew Bases

The 79 Crew Bases are as follows:

Airport Identifier City, State

ABQ Albuquerque, NM
ALB Albany, NY
ATL Atlanta, GA
AUS Austin, TX
BDL Bradley/Windsor Locks, CT
BHM Birmingham, AL
BIL Billings, MT
BNA Nashville, TN
BOI Boise, ID
BOS Boston, MA
BTV Burlington, VT
BUF Buffalo, NY
BWI Baltimore/Washington Airport, MD
CHS Charleston, SC
CLE Cleveland, OH
CLT Charlotte, NC
CMH Columbus, OH
CVG Cincinnati, OH/Covington, KY
DAY Dayton, OH
DCA Washington (Reagan), DC
DEN Denver, CO
DFW Dallas/Ft. Worth, TX
DSM Des Moines, IA
DTW Detroit, MI
ELP El Paso, TX
EWR Newark, NJ
FLL Ft. Lauderdale, FL
GEG Spokane, WA
GRR Grand Rapids, MI
HOU Houston (Hobby), TX
IAD Washington (Dulles)/Sterling, VA
IAH Houston (Intercontinental), TX
ICT Wichita, KS
IND Indianapolis, IN
JAN Jackson, MS
JAX Jacksonville, FL
JFK New York (Kennedy), NY
LAS Las Vegas, NV
LAX Los Angeles, CA
LGA New York (La Guardia), NY
LIT Little Rock, AR
MCI Kansas City, MO
MCO Orlando, FL
MDW Chicago (Midway), IL
MEM Memphis, TN
MHT Manchester, NH
MIA Miami, FL
MKE Milwaukee, WI
MSP Minneapolis/St. Paul, MN
MSY New Orleans, LA
OAK Oakland, CA
OKC Oklahoma City, OK
OMA Omaha, NE
ORD Chicago (O?Hare), IL
ORF Norfolk, VA
PBI West Palm Beach, FL
PDX Portland, OR
PHL Philadelphia, PA
PHX Phoenix, AZ
PIT Pittsburgh, PA
PNS Pensacola, FL
PVD Providence, RI
PWM Portland, ME
RDU Raleigh/Durham, NC
RIC Richmond, VA
RNO Reno, NV
ROC Rochester, NY
RSW Ft. Myers, FL
SAN San Diego, CA
SAT San Antonio, TX
SDF Louisville, KY
SEA Seattle, WA
SLC Salt Lake City, UT
SMF Sacramento, CA
STL St. Louis, MO
SYR Syracuse, NY
TPA Tampa, FL
TUS Tucson, AZ
TYS Knoxville, TN

 

[Praetorian]

Also: Contained in three LOAs, which were negotiated as part of our CBA, are the current, restricted and supplemental crew bases (Grandfathered Domiciles) - which our pilots can maintain or lose if they choose to move. These domiciles are also subject to rules, contained in the CBA, which restrict their use should airline service fall off a benchmark set when the CBA was ratified. To my knowledge know-one has lost (due to a reduction in airline service) a current, restricted or supplemental crew base since the CBA was ratified in 2010.
LOA 13-001 APPENDIX A
Current Domiciles

Airport Identifier City, State

ABE Allentown, PA
ATW Appleton, WI
AVL Ashville, NC
AVP Wilkes-Barre, PA
BGM Binghamton, NY
BLI Bellingham, WA
BMI Bloomington, IL
BTR Baton Rouge, LA
CAK Akron/Canton, OH
CHA Chattanooga, TN
CHO Charlottesville, VA
CID Cedar Rapids, IA
COS Colorado Springs, CO
CRP Corpus Christi, TX
CRW Charleston, WV
CWA Mosinee, WI
DAL Dallas (Love), TX
ELM Elmira, NY
ERI Erie, PA
EUG Eugene, OR
FAR Fargo, ND
FNT Flint, MI
FSD Sioux Falls, SD
GJT Grand Junction, CO
GNV Gainesville, FL
GPI/FCA Kalispell, MT
GPT Gulfport, MS
GSO Greensboro, NC
GSP Greenville/Spartanburg, SC
GTF Great Falls, MT
HLN Helena, MT
HSV Huntsville, AL
ISP Islip, NY
LAN Lansing, MI
LEX Lexington, KY
LFT Lafayette, LA
LNK Lincoln, NE
LYH Lynchburg, VA
MDT Harrisburg/Middleton, PA
MGM Montgomery, AL
MOB Mobile, AL
MYR Myrtle Beach, SC
PFN Panama City, FL
PSP Palm Springs, CA
ROA Roanoke, VA
RST Rochester, MN
SAV Savannah, GA
SBN South Bend, IN
SFO San Francisco, CA
SGF Springfield, MO
SHV Shreveport, LA
SNA Santa Ana/Orange County, CA
SRQ Sarasota, FL
SWF Newburgh (Stewart), NY
TLH Tallahassee, FL
TOL Toledo, OH
TUL Tulsa, OK
UNV/SCE State College, PA
VPS Ft. Walton Beach/Valparaiso, FL
XNA Bentonville, AR

LOA 13-001 APPENDIX B
Restricted Domiciles

Airport Identifier City, State

ABY Albany, GA
BFF Scottsbluff, NE
CYS Cheyenne, WY
DBQ Dubuque, IA
DHN Dothan, AL
DRO Durango, CO
EAU Eau Claire, WI
FWA Ft Wayne, IN
HXD/HHH Hilton Head Island, SC
LSE La Crosse, WI
MBS Midland/Bay City/Saginaw, MI
MCN Macon, GA
MLB Melbourne, FL
MLU Monroe, LA
MOT Minot, ND
MWA Marion, IL
PLN Pellston, MI
RDD Redding, CA
SUX Sioux City, IA
TUP Tupelo, MS
TWF Twin Falls, ID
TYR Tyler, TX

LOA 13-002 APPENDIX A
Supplemental Crew Bases

More Grandfathered Domociles

Airport Identifier City, State

CAE Columbia, SC
CMI Champagne, IL
BUR Burbank, CA
MTJ Montrose, CO

Keep in mind every pilot using these domiciles is on a 8/7, 7/7 or 16/2 ( which is essentially a 8/7 flex schedule).

There are no 8/4 schedules.

And the best part is it's in a collectively bargained CBA subject the the National Mediation Bord's rules, not the whim of management.

 

[slowtation capt]

Keep in mind with the list above that those airports ARE the domicle, not 4 or 5 airports in the surrounding area of a major airport that they can also make you go to.

 

[Propilot77]

Mostly this. Peak will suck. More than normal. You'll have to watch how you end your bid months now as the optimizer tries to front load each month for some reason I have forgotten. And 8-4-8-4 is possible, but keep in mind other things like 5-3-8 will now be a scheduling possibility. Fans of the 5-3-6 can now up their game.

The bases are a good thing. I think that jacking with the bid rules will have unintended consequences that seem minor now, but will create a lot of frustration down the road.

We should not have to give up days off/longer rotations to get more bases! All of these bases are MAJOR CITIES and don't warrant this schedule change! The bases would have happened eventually because when the hiring starts again know one will come work here and move to one of 6 bases! (This has already been proven in the past) so to remain competitive they would have to add them either way. Also no Flops guys are going to come to the Flex side and uproot family and to move to one of our stellar 6 bases. So what they are doing is taking advantage of the situation and getting something for nothing.

 

[dime line]

We should not have to give up days off/longer rotations to get more bases! All of these bases are MAJOR CITIES and don't warrant this schedule change! The bases would have happened eventually because when the hiring starts again know one will come work here and move to one of 6 bases! (This has already been proven in the past) so to remain competitive they would have to add them either way. Also no Flops guys are going to come to the Flex side and uproot family and to move to one of our stellar 6 bases. So what they are doing is taking advantage of the situation and getting something for nothing.

Bingo

 

[el raton]

We should not have to give up days off/longer rotations to get more bases! All of these bases are MAJOR CITIES and don't warrant this schedule change! The bases would have happened eventually because when the hiring starts again know one will come work here and move to one of 6 bases! (This has already been proven in the past) so to remain competitive they would have to add them either way. Also no Flops guys are going to come to the Flex side and uproot family and to move to one of our stellar 6 bases. So what they are doing is taking advantage of the situation and getting something for nothing.

...but our longest rotation is no longer than your average rotation....

You guys help set the bar for our long rotation.

 

[993_Pilot]

...but our longest rotation is no longer than your average rotation....

You guys help set the bar for our long rotation.

This is true. However, In a 31 day month on a standard 8/7 schedule, we can only work a maximum of 17 days. With 8/4/8/4/8/4 you could potentially work up to 23, and your shortest time off is way less than our 7 days. You guys are setting 2 new bars there.

We should not have to give up days off/longer rotations to get more bases! All of these bases are MAJOR CITIES and don't warrant this schedule change! The bases would have happened eventually because when the hiring starts again know one will come work here and move to one of 6 bases! (This has already been proven in the past) so to remain competitive they would have to add them either way. Also no Flops guys are going to come to the Flex side and uproot family and to move to one of our stellar 6 bases. So what they are doing is taking advantage of the situation and getting something for nothing.

Someone who gets it.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

This is true. However, In a 31 day month on a standard 8/7 schedule, we can only work a maximum of 17 days. With 8/4/8/4/8/4 you could potentially work up to 23, and your shortest time off is way less than our 7 days. You guys are setting 2 new bars there.



Someone who gets it.

I am not sure how we could work up to 23 days.

8-4-8-4-8-4-8-4 is not an option.

You can only be forced to work up to 16 days in a 28 day bid period. So during a 31 day month the most they can force you to work would be 19 by my math.

The bar has not been changed, you are just unfamiliar with our bidding rules.

 

[SkyCat45]

What are the new bases for Flexjet?

 

[doh]

I am not sure how we could work up to 23 days.

8-4-8-4-8-4-8-4 is not an option.

You can only be forced to work up to 16 days in a 28 day bid period. So during a 31 day month the most they can force you to work would be 19 by my math.

The bar has not been changed, you are just unfamiliar with our bidding rules.

TWA is right. We have a different bid system and the yield has not changed. If you fly the max every bid period, you will fly 13x16=208. Minus your vacation, so I'll use my three weeks and get 193 days. From a practical standpoint it is lower for me because I don't bid max all the time. That will not change. The mix will change if I bid a secondary. Since pretty much everyone knows who I am (I type the way I talk) my MSP June-September bid is known to most of you. During that time my mix will change and I may get some 8-4 rotations, but my max of 16 days per BP will not change. I'll post my results, if anyone wants them, for the whole of next summer. Also, since those secondary bases are bases, you can voucher in and out for a rotation if you want. So I plan on visiting the parents in PHX this winter once or twice. Got that straight from the horses mouth too. You are not giving up days off for this change.

 

[Praetorian]

TWA is right. We have a different bid system and the yield has not changed. If you fly the max every bid period, you will fly 13x16=208. Minus your vacation, so I'll use my three weeks and get 193 days. From a practical standpoint it is lower for me because I don't bid max all the time. That will not change. The mix will change if I bid a secondary. Since pretty much everyone knows who I am (I type the way I talk) my MSP June-September bid is known to most of you. During that time my mix will change and I may get some 8-4 rotations, but my max of 16 days per BP will not change. I'll post my results, if anyone wants them, for the whole of next summer. Also, since those secondary bases are bases, you can voucher in and out for a rotation if you want. So I plan on visiting the parents in PHX this winter once or twice. Got that straight from the horses mouth too. You are not giving up days off for this change.

First, let me say I hope the see things improve in lots of ways for you guys because I think this will provide leverage for my union's negotiators when they head back to the bargaining table this fall.

So within that context I have a few questions. Yes I'd like to see the results of your upcoming bid, but I'm wondering are you a fairly senior guy? Will a junior guy be disproportionately disadvantaged by this new basing/scheduling system. Have you guys ever worked 8-day rotations in the past? Even if this new system doesn't result in more annual days worked, doesn't a 8/4 seem kinda harsh? Do you expect many pilots will change domiciles given the more onerous schedule?

 

[V1 Rotate]

First, let me say I hope the see things improve in lots of ways for you guys because I think this will provide leverage for my union's negotiators when they head back to the bargaining table this fall.

So within that context I have a few questions. Yes I'd like to see the results of your upcoming bid, but I'm wondering are you a fairly senior guy? Will a junior guy be disproportionately disadvantaged by this new basing/scheduling system. Have you guys ever worked 8-day rotations in the past? Even if this new system doesn't result in more annual days worked, doesn't a 8/4 seem kinda harsh? Do you expect many pilots will change domiciles given the more onerous schedule?

Yes to all (except for the seniority since I don't know who he is).

A junior pilot may be forced into longer rotations than he is used to unless he normally bids 7 or 8 day rotations. As it is now, no one can be forced into anything more than 6. This will only be the case if you opt to be in one of the new secondary bases.

We currently have the option of bidding for lines that have 8 day rotations that have a minimum of 5 off, I believe. I never bid them so I may be inaccurate on the minimum time off.

8/4's would suck, yes.

I believe there will be plenty of takers on the bases. Maybe not immediately since lots of guys have families and homes etc that will take time to make the move. I for one will be making my last drive to Dallas ASAP.

 

[The Architect]

Forced

I am not sure how we could work up to 23 days.

8-4-8-4-8-4-8-4 is not an option.

You can only be forced to work up to 16 days in a 28 day bid period. So during a 31 day month the most they can force you to work would be 19 by my math.

The bar has not been changed, you are just unfamiliar with our bidding rules.

Wow! "FORCED"

Interesting.

Company offers a policy change. Pilots vote. Change occurs or not.

So, no negotiations with regard to the proposed change. Take it or leave it. No direct supervision by pilot representatives (mainly because there aren't any) over the voting process or results.

Sounds real fair.

Especially that part that requires 8 days of work to get 4 days off. Now that's a great schedule that the rest of the pilots in the fractional industry will appreciate.

I wonder how Flight Options pilots negotiators will handle that when they go back to the table. Perhaps the Flight Options pilots will send Flexjet pilots thank you cards for putting them in that bargaining situation.

Get those votes in! You have until the 14th at noon!