Flexjet Union

[DirtyBeech]

Or you could not be a day late and a dollar short on the latest with the program, and Crewmember selection. I expect that of the Flops guys. They don't have access to the information we do. All you have to do is pick up a phone. Maybe you could directly ask under what condition the groups, yes, plural, told the DO that they wouldn't volunteer for the program. Ask him first.

If you want to threaten my livelihood while calling out my manhood, pick up the phone or do it in person.

 

[V1 Rotate]

Dirty Beech, V1 and the third stooge, make no mistake you guys are selling out your fellow pilots. You are bypassing the seniority system, a system that pilots live, breathe and sleep by. By going dedicated crew, you are isolating yourselves in more ways than one. You are going against The other at least 97% of pilots at Flex. Think your careers have been bumpy so far? Well you are about to make a bunch of enemies in a small world where friends are imperative. You guys keep trying to justify this but you just really can't other than what's in it for me me me.
Or you could check yourselves in the mirror and be men that your children can be proud of. Help us draw a line in the sand and stop this unpopular divisive policy before perpetuating it. If not, then live with the consequences.

Instead of questioning my manhood on this anonymous board, why don't you man up and just call me with your concerns like others have done. If you know me personally then you know I'm easy to talk to and if you don't know me, then just ask someone who does. It's really not that difficult. As far as the consequences for my actions, are we talking slashed tires? Firebombing my front door? Stalking my family? But seriously, contact me personally and since I and a few others are doing all the ground work trying to stay informed I'll be happy to bring you up to date. Or just contact the office. I'm pretty sure you're off on your 97% number.

 

[CL-350]

Flops guys, yes there is grumbling going on at Flexjet. We are trying to navigate this new world we are in where everybody seems to want something from us when we would like to be just left alone. We are facing a choice of the lesser of 2 evils. And every time I start drifting to your way of thinking, I get on this site and I am reset to factory settings. There are many on this board that are approaching this in a diplomatic way and others that hardly post that should post more often. But from where I sit, it looks like the lunatics are running the asylum. Some of you need to either walk away from your keyboards or just stop posting stupid $hit and let KR do your work for you. If there is strength in numbers, then you want us on your side , correct?
Also stop attacking certain fellow pilots. If you have to stoop to that level then your argument is weak. Don't know ASA very well but to my knowledge he is a respected hard working fellow pilot. Although I may not agree with all his views, I respect them nonetheless based on his experiences with unions just like I respect Flops pilots views based on their experiences with management. An attack on him or others is an attack on all of us.
I have not made the time to go to the Google school of IBT. What exactly are you offering other than protection from the bogeyman. Be specific. What would an integrated list look like? Are you guys after "our" seats? Are 7 to 10 year fences even possible? Can the combining of list be delayed so "our" FOs can get a chance to upgrade? Is in house a viable alternative with 700 pilots? Educate us with your intentions instead of constantly throwing bombs. Until you guys look like the better option than KR, then don't expect us to join you.
Also I hope you guys kick butt on your negotiations. But many of you seem obsessed with our side of the house when your own side is burning. You might want to tell your new leaders to hold off on that filing. Although there is some migration towards organization, the numbers are no where close for support of IBT. File now, and there is a good chance you will lose IBT. But a couple of years from now, who knows. The longer you wait the better your chances. And just winning an election by 1% is not enough. I think the goal would be to have a unified pilot group working together towards a common goal. Correct me if I am wrong. If you are thinking otherwise, then you are missing the forest through the trees.
Everybody try and have a good holiday season. Even you dedicated crew doooshbags. I'll go heat up some popcorn.

 

[doh]

V1 and DirtyBeech, since you volunteered to be contacted, I have some questions. Will you be accruing and bidding for vacations with the rest of us? Will you accrue the same amount of pto as the rest of us? Will you be paid daily rate plus overtime above twelve hours? What year captain's pay will you accrue? Seniority minus one year? Are you still covered by the agreement (that will not change without a vote), or are you giving up all of the rules we currently have for some undefined job? I'd call you, but I have no idea who you are...

 

[CL-350]

V1, your response was a little dramatic. Your decisions probably won't affect me one way or the other. I know you are tired of hearing this but there is a good chance you will upgrade in the near future through seniority instead of falling on a sword. Call you? Never met you. But what you should do is call all the FOs and Lear Captains that are senior to you and explain your actions to them. I can see there is no changing your mind. I will leave you alone. You get to live with your decisions, not me.

 

[DirtyBeech]

V1 and DirtyBeech, since you volunteered to be contacted, I have some questions. Will you be accruing and bidding for vacations with the rest of us? Yes, and no. Will you accrue the same amount of pto as the rest of us? Yes. Will you be paid daily rate plus overtime above twelve hours? Hourly OT above 12 yes. Otherwise it's a salaried position. What year captain's pay will you accrue? See above. Seniority minus one year? See above. Are you still covered by the agreement (that will not change without a vote), or are you giving up all of the rules we currently have for some undefined job? Don't know. I'd call you, but I have no idea who you are...

Given that the program hasn't been announced, or even publicly outlined, these are the answers to my understanding.

Honestly, as mgt.

 

[V1 Rotate]

V1 and DirtyBeech, since you volunteered to be contacted, I have some questions. Will you be accruing and bidding for vacations with the rest of us?

As far as we know, yes.

Will you accrue the same amount of pto as the rest of us?

As far as we know, yes.

Will you be paid daily rate plus overtime above twelve hours?

Been told yes.

What year captain's pay will you accrue? Seniority minus one year?

Its a straight salary position. The pay was compared recently on Yammer.

Are you still covered by the agreement (that will not change without a vote), or are you giving up all of the rules we currently have for some undefined job?

Giving it up to work under other conditions. And besides, I didn't think our Agreement was worth the paper it's written on?

I'd call you, but I have no idea who you are...

V1, your response was a little dramatic. Your decisions probably won't affect me one way or the other. I know you are tired of hearing this but there is a good chance you will upgrade in the near future through seniority instead of falling on a sword. Call you? Never met you. But what you should do is call all the FOs and Lear Captains that are senior to you and explain your actions to them. I can see there is no changing your mind. I will leave you alone. You get to live with your decisions, not me.

I have spoken with a number of more senior guys than I. Their biggest concerns tend to be worrying if they'll be required to fly a dedicated tail if a dedicated crewmember is sick, in training, or in vacation (which I've been told they won't) or if we'll be flying undedicated tails if the dedicated plane breaks.

 

[Bill_Lumbergh]

Flops guys, yes there is grumbling going on at Flexjet. We are trying to navigate this new world we are in where everybody seems to want something from us when we would like to be just left alone. We are facing a choice of the lesser of 2 evils. And every time I start drifting to your way of thinking, I get on this site and I am reset to factory settings. There are many on this board that are approaching this in a diplomatic way and others that hardly post that should post more often. But from where I sit, it looks like the lunatics are running the asylum. Some of you need to either walk away from your keyboards or just stop posting stupid $hit and let KR do your work for you. If there is strength in numbers, then you want us on your side , correct?
Also stop attacking certain fellow pilots. If you have to stoop to that level then your argument is weak. Don't know ASA very well but to my knowledge he is a respected hard working fellow pilot. Although I may not agree with all his views, I respect them nonetheless based on his experiences with unions just like I respect Flops pilots views based on their experiences with management. An attack on him or others is an attack on all of us.
I have not made the time to go to the Google school of IBT. What exactly are you offering other than protection from the bogeyman. Be specific. What would an integrated list look like? Are you guys after "our" seats? Are 7 to 10 year fences even possible? Can the combining of list be delayed so "our" FOs can get a chance to upgrade? Is in house a viable alternative with 700 pilots? Educate us with your intentions instead of constantly throwing bombs. Until you guys look like the better option than KR, then don't expect us to join you.
Also I hope you guys kick butt on your negotiations. But many of you seem obsessed with our side of the house when your own side is burning. You might want to tell your new leaders to hold off on that filing. Although there is some migration towards organization, the numbers are no where close for support of IBT. File now, and there is a good chance you will lose IBT. But a couple of years from now, who knows. The longer you wait the better your chances. And just winning an election by 1% is not enough. I think the goal would be to have a unified pilot group working together towards a common goal. Correct me if I am wrong. If you are thinking otherwise, then you are missing the forest through the trees.
Everybody try and have a good holiday season. Even you dedicated crew doooshbags. I'll go heat up some popcorn.

350, you seem like a voice of reason and a thoughtful person. That being said, I don't know all the answers about the RLA, but a 7 to 10 year fence, in this case, seems pretty unrealistic. I do know that Federal law requires a "fair and equitable" integration of the seniority lists, i.e., one group cannot simply be stapled to the bottom of the other. How that will look will have to be decided by all of us (or Uncle Kenn if the 1108 is voted out).

I can assure you that no true union member "wants " anything from you guys. What they want is the same thing that you want. A good, long term job. I, for one, only "want" one thing...ok... a couple of things: $365,000.00/year ($1000.00/calendar day) and work the third Wednesday of each month. If the company wants me to fly a 152 and wear a pink uniform with purple polka dots, I will do it. And, dammit, they had better not ask me to work more than 14 hours!

I have worked both with and without a contract. I can assure you, there are many things that the Flex pilots are going to want that the Options pilots have.

And I'm with you. I wish you all to have a great holiday season! Even the dedicated crew and Options crossover ******************************bags!
:beer:

 

[Bill_Lumbergh]

Flops guys, yes there is grumbling going on at Flexjet. We are trying to navigate this new world we are in where everybody seems to want something from us when we would like to be just left alone. We are facing a choice of the lesser of 2 evils. And every time I start drifting to your way of thinking, I get on this site and I am reset to factory settings. There are many on this board that are approaching this in a diplomatic way and others that hardly post that should post more often. But from where I sit, it looks like the lunatics are running the asylum. Some of you need to either walk away from your keyboards or just stop posting stupid $hit and let KR do your work for you. If there is strength in numbers, then you want us on your side , correct?
Also stop attacking certain fellow pilots. If you have to stoop to that level then your argument is weak. Don't know ASA very well but to my knowledge he is a respected hard working fellow pilot. Although I may not agree with all his views, I respect them nonetheless based on his experiences with unions just like I respect Flops pilots views based on their experiences with management. An attack on him or others is an attack on all of us.
I have not made the time to go to the Google school of IBT. What exactly are you offering other than protection from the bogeyman. Be specific. What would an integrated list look like? Are you guys after "our" seats? Are 7 to 10 year fences even possible? Can the combining of list be delayed so "our" FOs can get a chance to upgrade? Is in house a viable alternative with 700 pilots? Educate us with your intentions instead of constantly throwing bombs. Until you guys look like the better option than KR, then don't expect us to join you.
Also I hope you guys kick butt on your negotiations. But many of you seem obsessed with our side of the house when your own side is burning. You might want to tell your new leaders to hold off on that filing. Although there is some migration towards organization, the numbers are no where close for support of IBT. File now, and there is a good chance you will lose IBT. But a couple of years from now, who knows. The longer you wait the better your chances. And just winning an election by 1% is not enough. I think the goal would be to have a unified pilot group working together towards a common goal. Correct me if I am wrong. If you are thinking otherwise, then you are missing the forest through the trees.
Everybody try and have a good holiday season. Even you dedicated crew doooshbags. I'll go heat up some popcorn.

350, you seem like a voice of reason and a thoughtful person. That being said, I don't know all the answers about the RLA, but a 7 to 10 year fence, in this case, seems pretty unrealistic. I do know that Federal law requires a "fair and equitable" integration of the seniority lists, i.e., one group cannot simply be stapled to the bottom of the other. How that will look will have to be decided by all of us (or Uncle Kenn if the 1108 is voted out).

I can assure you that no true union member "wants " anything from you guys. What they want is the same thing that you want. A good, long term job. I, for one, only "want" one thing...ok... a couple of things: $365,000.00/year ($1000.00/calendar day) and work the third Wednesday of each month. If the company wants me to fly a 152 and wear a pink uniform with purple polka dots, I will do it. And, dammit, they had better not ask me to work more than 14 hours!

I have worked both with and without a contract. I can assure you, there are many things that the Flex pilots are going to want that the Options pilots have.

And I'm with you. I wish you all to have a great holiday season! Even the dedicated crew and Options crossover ******************************bags!
:beer:

 

[Ludicrous Speed]

That's because he's the Chief Safety Officer for OneSky Flight, LLC, the new parent for both. Will be interesting to see what else gets consolidated, and what else gets moved around in the never ending shell game that is KR's business empire. - BlueNose

Agreed. As an employee, I have to regularly look at this chart I keep of DAC & OneSky companies in order to keep it all straight. If I have to do it, can you imagine what the customers think? Dedicated crewing, FO pilots flying FJ painted a/c? FJ Pilots have had a year. What do they think of uncle's world? Is it good business or gaming?

Is in house a viable alternative with 700 pilots? CL350

UPS has 2516, NJ has 2926, & Southwest has 6830 pilots. Each has an in-house union. They can be a popular initial idea, however, you need a large population of employees for an in-house. Even then, without a "National" to provide council, support, & guidance, the risks multiply.

It comes down to numbers, meaning membership & money. You absolutely need an incredible amount of money for council. And when you do attain a contract, you'll need even more to defend the contract through arbitrations and grievances, as well as negotiate the next amendment.

Generally, in house movements are used as a distraction - i.e. FO's recent in-housers earlier this year. It's mgt that endorses an in-house union because they recognize and will routinely exploit their weaknesses.

 

[doh]

Given that the program hasn't been announced, or even publicly outlined, these are the answers to my understanding.

Honestly, as mgt.

"Yes and no" is not an answer. In fact, without an explanation, most of those are non answers.

 

[doh]

I have spoken with a number of more senior guys than I. Their biggest concerns tend to be worrying if they'll be required to fly a dedicated tail if a dedicated crewmember is sick, in training, or in vacation (which I've been told they won't) or if we'll be flying undedicated tails if the dedicated plane breaks.

My biggest concern is I'll be working harder than the midget and getting half, or less, compensation.

 

[Propilot77]

My biggest concern is I'll be working harder than the midget and getting half, or less, compensation.

That's the plan and the goal it seems but wait a couple of days something might change! Indecision and delays are the parents of failure. The only constant we now have is change.

 

[DirtyBeech]

"Yes and no" is not an answer. In fact, without an explanation, most of those are non answers.

It actually is an answer if you take it as two answers to your two part question. Yes, you will accrue vacation time like a line pilot. No, you will not bid against other line pilots for it. This is why I'd prefer you did your own legwork and ask mgt. Or ask someone in person. Reading comprehension is not generally a strong point in our field. Or you could continue to ask for second hand information about an unannounced program on a third party forum.

 

[shanes123]

Gonna get off topic here.I wish the FJ guys and a minority of the FLOPS guys would step back for a moment and ask yourselves why is KR so determined to bust the Union? If hes such a stand up guy that wants the best for his crews and have them be " The highest paid in the industry" (LOL) Whats the difference if he sits down with a pilot that has the IBT behind him, a inhouse union behind him or no one behind him? The guy he will be negotiating with, could possibly be the same exact guy. But if its not it still would be a line pilot from either FJ or FLOPS? so why does it matter to KR? The answer to me is clear. With a inhouse or no representation from a deep pocket national, KR can change rules, conditions, pay. anything he wants and theres not a damn thing anyone of us pilots could do about it. This isn't about the IBT or FJ pilots or Flops pilots. Its about all the crews having a decent fair pay scale coupled with quality of life and work rules that cant be changed with a email from KR. I look at it that us pilots are using the IBT for there deep pockets. We get a lot more from them then they get from us. But at the end of the day its our pilots that are fighting for us. Not the IBT not KR. The same exact guys that we share a cockpit with and talk about our families with have dinner with. Think about it everyone we should all be in this together.