Flexjet Union

[DirtyBeech]

Or they'll be given to new hires off the street. Pretty easy to sit there and tell guys to watch transfers or new hires take 350 slots while they work on year 8-10 in the right seat.

 

[Pacific]

Unless we FJ pilots unanimously reject this program it will probably happen. By you so eagerly facilitating this program you have chosen to step on a lot of toes and made it much more difficult for the correct message to be sent. Everyone has done their time, you are not special.

 

[luckydog]

Or they'll be given to new hires off the street. Pretty easy to sit there and tell guys to watch transfers or new hires take 350 slots while they work on year 8-10 in the right seat.

WHAT the F makes you think any of this is EASY?

And don't try to use your right seat time for sympathy, no one cares. Everyone has a hard luck story, you're not special. This is a tough industry that is very unforgiving. It's a shame that everyone isn't #1 on the seniority list but it doesn't work that way.

And since you don't seem to be able to see past the shiny new jet, let me remind you that just as soon as you knife someone in the back to get your seat, you better start looking over you shoulder because sure as s**t some new hire off the street will be there to do it to you. Once this gets started, there's no going back.

 

[Bill_Lumbergh]

The IBT worked out badly for NJA. Same will happen at FLEX/FO, in my opinion. If you want a union, go in house.

This is absolutely not true.

A little history:
The Netjets pilot group belonged to a Teamsters local that represented many different types of work forces in the Columbus area. The leadership of this local was not familiar with pilot operations and did not service the Netjets group well. Their contract was not great. Netjets union leadership petitioned the Teamsters Airline Division to form their own local; Local 1108. The 1108 leadership, with the help and full support of the Airline Division and National, negotiated the best contract in the fractional business. Eventually, Bill O., decided that it was not beneficial for the Netjets pilots to be part of the Teamsters, formed NJASAP and left the 1108. Shortly thereafter, Bill O. got a nice, cushy management position with Netjets (....things that make you go ".....hmmmm?")

Since then, the Local 1108 leadership made up of all Flight Options pilots negotiated a very good first contract for that pilot group with the help and full support of the Airline Division and National. While it is not perfect, it is very good.

Currently, the Local 1108 is negotiating for an improved amendment to that first contract with the help and full support of the Airline Division and National. In addition to providing behind the scenes support, the Teamsters Airline division is devoting Airline Division Representative Rick Dubinsky to the bargaining table at their own expense.

I think the Flight Options pilots are very lucky to be part of such a large, powerful organization as the Teamsters and, when the Flex pilots become part of Local 1108, they will, too. To go it alone would be disaster for all of us.

I think we have to stop thinking so selfishly and look at what is going to be best for the whole combined pilot force. There is no question that the pilot force(s) will be combined. The question is: Do you want to do it Kenn's (A dictator's) way? Or do you want to do it our (the democratic way; the combined pilot force working together as a unified force) way? I've seen Kenn's way of doing things. It's not pretty and he certainly doesn't have your best interest in mind.

 

[rsm]

Vomit!!!!!

 

[DirtyBeech]

You know, this program is happening. The only question is who flies the planes. Groups are putting their names in. Some are dropping out. Others are in fluid membership situations. And we still don't know a lot of detail about this. We probably won't know much more when the initial announcement is made. There'll be an open enrollment period so we may find out there are several teams ready for pull the trigger or just 2 or three. There's a lot I don't know.

What I do know is that it's hard to take anyone seriously who's most cogent thought is " so you think you at special", or " blah, blah, blah, shiny jet, blah". Better run before someone knifes me in the back.

It's like dealing with children.

 

[Pacific]

As far as the SNJ syndrome. I know it hits a nerve with you, but if the shoe fits... C'mon Yammer man...the worst part is you know what you're doing is wrong but yet you continue to stay on the same path. I'm sorry, but it says a lot about you.

 

[DirtyBeech]

No Mr. Checkairman showing his backside on FI, I'm learning tons about you. If you want to talk like a man then you have my number. I'm done with this little public/ private discussion we're having.

 

[luckydog]

You know, this program is happening. The only question is who flies the planes. Groups are putting their names in. Some are dropping out. Others are in fluid membership situations. And we still don't know a lot of detail about this. We probably won't know much more when the initial announcement is made. There'll be an open enrollment period so we may find out there are several teams ready for pull the trigger or just 2 or three. There's a lot I don't know.

What I do know is that it's hard to take anyone seriously who's most cogent thought is " so you think you at special", or " blah, blah, blah, shiny jet, blah". Better run before someone knifes me in the back.

It's like dealing with children.

First off, none of us KNOWS anything about it. This is a half baked idea that hasn't been thought out and explained to the group that will be tasked to execute the plan.

Second, using 'everyone else is doing it' as a rationalization for your own bad behavior is just sad.

Lastly, you're right, it is like trying to talk to a child. I want what I want when I want it.

Your clever banter has worn me down, good luck.

 

[Pacific]

I thought public banter was your forte?

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

You know, this program is happening. The only question is who flies the planes. Grroups are putting their names in. Some are dropping out. Others are in fluid membership situations. And we still don't know a lot of detail about this. We probably won't know much more when the initial announcement is made. There'll be an open enrollment period so we may find out there are several teams ready for pull the trigger or just 2 or three. There's a lot I don't know.

What I do know is that it's hard to take anyone seriously who's most cogent thought is " so you think you at special", or " blah, blah, blah, shiny jet, blah". Better run before someone knifes me in the back.

It's like dealing with children.

Like it did with the 75?

No one put in for it and BAM, it is flown as a regular airplane.

There is no way that this program will last. For it to work EVERY 350 would have to be a dedicated crew. Do you foresee that happening?

When it falls apart do you want to be remembered for this?

I have always enjoyed flying with you, but as it has already been said, you are on the wrong side this time. I know you have always been a big Union promoter here. Hey, you are entitled to your opinion. This goes so against everything you have ever stood for.

 

[dime line]

For it to work EVERY 350 would have to be a dedicated crew. Do you foresee that happening?

Yes, Ricci loves his dedicated crewing. We know this from history, and he will tell you.

 

[jetwash]

So KR is making up all of these small dedicated aircraft crews who will be running there own aircraft.

I can see how it is a plus for him since he will be able to see which crews are operating their aircraft most efficiently and which crew might need some encouragement to work overtime, maybe longer duty days doing part 91 repo's after 14 hours of part 135 flying etc....

He will be able to look at all 20 aircraft and rank them from best to worst.

What happens to the crews if their aircraft comes up last on the list? Are they allowed to return back to the Lear's or are they sent packing?

It might just become the "Hunger Games" pilot edition.....

 

[V1 Rotate]

I never thought I would say this, but here goes...

The stock nazis in the 45 have taken their positions as dedicated crews on the 350s.They will bend over backwards to make this new program work. In the end they will be successful and we'll all be forced into dedicated crews. KR will love them because they brought his vision of dedicated crews to fruition. He'll look at them as People who can carry out his plans and call them his innovators. In reality they're your typical suck up! theyvhave screwed us!


The days of seniority based pay, upgrades, and schedules will be destroyed because of them. Instead, you will be judged soley on your performance and willingness to go above and beyond anything we do now. In aviation that can be dangerous.

I guess it's time to make a decision. Either you join the dedicated crew, suck it up and say goodbye to a nice job. Flexjet

Next,
anybody have any ideas?

Since you don't consider yourself a stock nazi then I assume you're probably one of the guys that we have go behind and fix stuff, is that a fair assessment? None of us are bending over backwards for anyone except for our own selves. We're the ones taking the heat. Do you even realize that there are FLOPs groups forming as we speak to come over and do the dedicated crew? If anything, we should band together 8-9 crews to prevent this. Btw, nine aircraft are slated to be dedicated. Would you rather Flexjet pilots do it or FLOPs guys? Either way, it's happening. Instead of running here and calling us names how about picking up the phone and calling. You obviously know me and know that I'm approachable.

WHAT the F makes you think any of this is EASY?

And don't try to use your right seat time for sympathy, no one cares. Everyone has a hard luck story, you're not special. This is a tough industry that is very unforgiving. It's a shame that everyone isn't #1 on the seniority list but it doesn't work that way.

And since you don't seem to be able to see past the shiny new jet, let me remind you that just as soon as you knife someone in the back to get your seat, you better start looking over you shoulder because sure as s**t some new hire off the street will be there to do it to you. Once this gets started, there's no going back.

This post is a good one, too. Not only do you label us a backstabber and assign a disease to us (Shiny Jet Syndrome), there's a threat in there also.

As far as the SNJ syndrome. I know it hits a nerve with you, but if the shoe fits... C'mon Yammer man...the worst part is you know what you're doing is wrong but yet you continue to stay on the same path. I'm sorry, but it says a lot about you.

Shiny Jet Syndrome was a tactic used by the regionals to get guys to fly bigger airplanes for less money. I know you know that based on where you came from. All us regional guys were offered up that bait. That simply isn't the case here as the pay was pointed out on Yammer.

Like it did with the 75?

No one put in for it and BAM, it is flown as a regular airplane.

There is no way that this program will last. For it to work EVERY 350 would have to be a dedicated crew. Do you foresee that happening?

When it falls apart do you want to be remembered for this?

I have always enjoyed flying with you, but as it has already been said, you are on the wrong side this time. I know you have always been a big Union promoter here. Hey, you are entitled to your opinion. This goes so against everything you have ever stood for.

The dedicated 75's went away because there wasn't any projected profit in them. Straight from Rick.

 

[SDCFI]

May the odds be ever in your favor!

I recently heard the dedicated 350s will not be on the 135 cert and will be operated 91k only. The "red label" airplanes will be shares only, no cards, to make them more exclusive and maybe keep the resale value higher.

The hybrid aircraft were different in that the planes were exclusive to one owner who purchased a whole aircraft and FJ essentially managed it. These 350s will have multiple owners even if it's a special premium product and as such should be operated as regular fleet aircraft. If they decide to put FO pilots or even new hires in these planes they will practically be begging for a union vote that will most likely pass. If KR hates unions as much as we think he does he will have to see this and back off.

 

[Pacific]

V1, justify all you want but you know what you are doing is wrong. You state that resistance is futile; do you really believe that or does it just conveniently fit into your agenda and argument? Your true motives are crystal clear.

 

[V1 Rotate]

V1, justify all you want but you know what you are doing is wrong. You state that resistance is futile; do you really believe that or does it just conveniently fit into your agenda and argument? Your true motives and self-centerdness are crystal clear.

I never stated that that I'm aware and I have no agenda. I play by the rules set forth, do my job and go home. Maybe I'm not who you think I am on here but either way we'll just have to disagree, I suppose. I'm not getting into a pissing match over it any more. If I could prevent the FLOPs guys from coming over and retaining their pay, I would. I/we can try and stop them from doing the dedicated crew by forming our own groups to prevent them from doing it because it's going to happen one way or another. The debate is over.

 

[Bird brain]

This is clearly going to be another successful attempt to divide and conquer another pilot group. It's obviously every man for himself!

 

[Pacific]

I have a feeling you hope this dedicated crew thing makes it, as it allows you to justify your actions. Otherwise you would be onboard with showing, that as a group, we reject this program.

 

[993_Pilot]

That wasn't the word as of yesterday.

Yesterdays word can (and will) change at the whim of management when you don't have a legally binding contract. The FLOPs pilots have seen it happen and you are only beginning to experience it at Flex. You can think whatever you want, but there is only one way to stop that kind of BS, and that is to organize and have a collective bargaining agreement that prevents it.

 

[slowtation capt]

I/we can try and stop them from doing the dedicated crew by forming our own groups to prevent them from doing it because it's going to happen one way or another. The debate is over.

So you want to destroy your own seniority list then?

 

[V1 Rotate]

So you want to destroy your own seniority list then?

It's not destroying the seniority list when it's a separate program like the hybrids were. The four most junior pilots at the time could've interviewed and received those positions. I've never once heard anyone complain about that. Here, we're looking at outside pilots coming in and going straight to Challenger CA pay. And lets be real, just because they transfer over doesn't make them Flexjet pilots. They're FLOPs pilots whether they retain their seniority number there or not. Part of me would love to just sit back and watch the FLOPs guys come over and do the dedicated crew and then I could say "I told you so" as we stand on the ramp and watch them taxi out in a 350 while I climb back into my cold, non APU Lear.

 

[doh]

As of today, every team except one, has withdrawn from this program. Great job those of you who made the right decision. You last five need to get on the right side of this.

 

[doh]

And we also need you Flight Options pilots to show us what it means to be union. You want us to join you, show us that you aren't just a bunch of backstabbing opportunists.

 

[slowtation capt]

It's not destroying the seniority list when it's a separate program like the hybrids were. The four most junior pilots at the time could've interviewed and received those positions. I've never once heard anyone complain about that. Here, we're looking at outside pilots coming in and going straight to Challenger CA pay. And lets be real, just because they transfer over doesn't make them Flexjet pilots. They're FLOPs pilots whether they retain their seniority number there or not. Part of me would love to just sit back and watch the FLOPs guys come over and do the dedicated crew and then I could say "I told you so" as we stand on the ramp and watch them taxi out in a 350 while I climb back into my cold, non APU Lear.

A separate program, really? It's as separate as KR can make it in order to divide this group. If it is separate then why be an employee of flex, why have a flex seniority #.
It can be run like a "hybrid" using the seniority list from the top down. It wouldn't run any different if the first 5 guys on the list are assigned to "X"N# as opposed to a select group of 5 different seniority #'s being assigned to that tail.

 

[slowtation capt]

And we also need you Flight Options pilots to show us what it means to be union. You want us to join you, show us that you aren't just a bunch of backstabbing opportunists.

We are all ready showing you, just look at the amount of people and who those people are that have come to flex as of now. The list of people grouping together for a team is also surprisingly expected based off of who they are.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

And we also need you Flight Options pilots to show us what it means to be union. You want us to join you, show us that you aren't just a bunch of backstabbing opportunists.

doh, that is a very high standard. In case you haven't figured it out, there are members IN the union that are backstabbers. They do not represent the vast majority OF the union members at FO. Most members just want to make the best of the situation for everybody.

 

[V1 Rotate]

A separate program, really? It's as separate as KR can make it in order to divide this group. If it is separate then why be an employee of flex, why have a flex seniority #.
It can be run like a "hybrid" using the seniority list from the top down. It wouldn't run any different if the first 5 guys on the list are assigned to "X"N# as opposed to a select group of 5 different seniority #'s being assigned to that tail.

That was mentioned. But what if the top five don't want to fly together? Then what? It all may dismantle anyway and then we can get back to fighting over the 1108.

 

[notapilot]

The hybrid program was different. Don't use that program as another justification for your decision. The hybrid program was wholly owned aircraft that required crews to move so it couldn't be forced on people. Two completely different situations. We are still waiting on the dedicated program info. If it ends up paying less will you still voluntarily do the same job for less money than a fleet captain?

 

[jetwash]

And we also need you Flight Options pilots to show us what it means to be union. You want us to join you, show us that you aren't just a bunch of backstabbing opportunists.

Seeing Flex has a group of pilots who are only out for themselves those FO pilots that went over to your side of the house are no different, they too are only out for themselves.

They do not represent the FO pilots or the 1108. As a matter of fact they were discouraged from going over by both the 1108 and other FO pilots.

The question should be are those Flex and FO pilots who are going to take the dedicated crew positions just opportunists out for themselves or are they tools being used by KR to divide both pilot groups.