FlexJet Pay/Workrules/Benefits???

[John MClain]

The new B19 has played his cards....

You're comparing me to B19 based on my last few posts? Now that's laughable. It's also reminds me why I stopped viewing and posting to this forum. Don't know why I expected it to be different this time around. You and fr8dog and shane123 and Dime just can't seem to stand the fact that there is a fractional company out there with pilots who are actually pretty happy. You won't be happy til we are all one big miserable, unhappy family. You know what I fear most about this recent acquisition / merger / whatever you want to call it? It ain't Ricci. It's knowing that I'm going to have work with arrogant, self centered, condescending Pr@&ks like you guys. Nothing and I mean nothing will ever make you happy. You'll always find something to bitch about. Blame someone or something for your rotten lot in life. Pathetic really.

You and all the others who feel that Flexjet has flourished and somehow wrongly reaped the rewards from all your pain and suffering under the task masters whip can respond to this in any manner you choose. I will not know anything about it because I have logged onto this site for the last time. It is an absolute waste of time trying to communicate with such close minded and miserable human beings. Sometimes I find it hard to believe and even sad we are in the same profession.

Yippie ki yah.

 

[Propilot77]

Have you read the same posts I have? May I suggest reviewing the thread titled Flexjet Read File. It would seem to me that there are in fact some at Options who do appear to have issues with those of us at Flexjet.

Having said that, what's your point? 15 years of misery makes you experts on what's going to happen to Flexjet? Truth is, nobody knows what's going to happen, not even Mr. Ricci himself. Trust me, we here at Flex are very aware of him and his past and are not as naive as some here like to insinuate to think that there are not significant changes coming. Hopefully some good and most definitely some bad. It hasn't been all roses and tulips here at Flexjet the past 15 years either. We've had our share of lies, pitches and emails as well. But posts like some of the ones in this thread and others do not help convince the non-union ranks that having a union is the end to beat all. The argument you are going to see and hear from them is " Gee look what the union has done for the the Options guys, they appear to be some of the most unhappy, angry and abused people in the fractional aviation business, where do I sign?"

As far as the email and firing out of seniority I have no idea what you're referring to. Again you all seem to know more about Flexjet than those who actually work there. Have people been fired? Absolutely. Out of seniority? How are you fired out of seniority? There are always 2 sides to every story but from what I actually know to be fact about some who have been terminated, having a union would not nor should not have made a difference due to what those individuals did to cause them to be fired. Period.

Not exactly sure, but he may be referring to the Sept 11th furloughs I think those were done out of seniority.

 

[hammer2]

Not exactly sure, but he may be referring to the Sept 11th furloughs I think those were done out of seniority.

Are you talking about Flexjet's furloughs in 2001?

 

[shanes123]

John McCain is on his way to be the first SFO in Riccis new SFO program he will do well with that attitude. And as long as he stays under his desk...

 

[GooseHZ]

Classic hired gun.....read my posts Bob.....I have and always will preach open and constructive dialog about the potential Flex/Options merger. You see one side and one side only. That's fine....take your ball and go home and let the adults have a conversation.

It's all for naught since your never coming back....Under this name anyway or you will be a proven LIAR.

 

[FR8DOG777]

There's an easy solution to this whole problem John, but you and I both know that's not the course of action Ricci is going to take. Instead of rewarding the flight options pilots for resuscitating his name and brand from the darkest recesses of hell he will create strife and angst between the two groups. Instead of operating above the table and taking the high road he will continue to operate in the "grey" areas and wait for the IBT to file a national lawsuit against him for scope clause violations. Meanwhile he will be taxing the Flex group flying secret little owner missions for sentient and spinnaker and flex owners and positioning himself once again to run away with a bag of money. I love how you made it sound so much better for the time and dedication you have spent there. Here's to the next decade and half of fractional flying.

 

[shanes123]

That was easy..if we could get rid of the rest of the butt lickers options would be a good job. Good riddance McCain how about a resignation next? Maybe the secret squirrel club guys will follow...

 

[flex*wife]

Wow - am I the only one who's gotten lost in the past few pages?

It would seem to me that the worst thing for both pilot groups is to ramp up the tension, unease and bitterness.

So you have to ask yourself, why is it being done?

 

[BlueNose]

Flex pilots should be very thankful that everyone is so concerned about their welfare and eager to give such sage advice.

What it is hard to figure out is what they want you to do with it at the moment?

I don't think you can expect a reasonable conversation with the cheerleaders for 1108's leadership on this board, since many of them are 1108 MEC guys anyway. They're only here to scare the Flex pilots into voluntarily joining up by a unionization vote, because they know they've been outmaneuvered yet again by Ricci. They know their threats of a single-carrier suit are empty because of the crappy scope clause they signed. They're angry about the sub-par wage scale and work rules they signed up for (but remember the profit-sharing section? which has less chance of happening than an asteroid strike). They take no responsibility for the adversarial relations they helped foster between management and labor. The Flex guys are somehow supposed to look at all this and rush to embrace 1108 to protect themselves from Ricci, who has a special hatred for unions and has repeatedly shown that he can make this labor leadership his b1tches at will.

Not sure why you even attempt a dialogue, unless you're just a normal joe who wants to feel like the smartest guy in the world...

Normal Joe: "Now, I'm no botanist, but I do know that if you put water on plants, they grow."

1108 MEC member 1: "But Brawndo's got what plants crave."

1108 MEC member 2: "Yeah, it's got electrolytes."

Good luck.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

BlueNose
"because they know they've been outmaneuvered yet again by Ricci."?
Have you heard "you can keep your plan if you like it. Period"?

 

[Pacific]

Anything but The Teamsters! This awesome union represents GOJETS, the ultimate whipsaw, scope circumnavigating airline around. Established for the sole purpose of circumnavigating the Trans States contract. That's what a real whipsaw looks like. No thanks.

 

[flex*wife]

Just heard today from a pretty reliable source the hold up on the PTO hangup. Here's the nitty gritty:

Outstanding sick bank balances represent an over $20 Million liability to DAM under the current set up should they acquire them. Lawyers are hashing it all out given Texas employment rules require an equitable transference of the liability - i.e. they just can't disappear.

DAM has a use or lose it policy regarding all PTO, so they do not wish to acquire the liability, instead negotiating a possible buyout of the banks from Bombardier. If such can't be negotiated, it changes the structure of what DAM would like to offer in terms of PTO and rules. Hence the wait.

Personally, we're middle of the fence on this. A buyout of close to 100 days would be nice for our family. But requiring DAM to continue with the current PTO arrangement might be nicer. Really, really not liking the lumped PTO structure.

edit to add:

TX LAB 61.001 includes this: (7) "Wages" means compensation owed by an employer for: (A) labor or services rendered by an employee, whether computed on a time, task, piece, commission, or other basis; and (B) vacation pay, holiday pay, sick leave pay, parental leave pay, or severance pay owed to an employee under a written agreement with the employer or under a written policy of the employer.

and TX LAB 61.014 says at termination of employment, employer has 6 days to compensate all wages owed.

 

[jetwash]

FYI.

Flops had a similar issue with pilots having large banks of PTO which was also considered debt on the books when HiG was selling us back to Ricci.

They did not want to buy out the hours from the pilots so they just started forced vacations.
You would usually receive an e mail telling you that you are on vacation next tour and would not be needed. The other pilots would then pick up the slack.

They were able to reduce this bank of hours rather quickly. Pilots were not given any say in the matter just told you are on vacation.

It was nice to get the extra time off but with short notice you couldn't plan anything.

 

[BlueNose]

BlueNose
"because they know they've been outmaneuvered yet again by Ricci."?
Have you heard "you can keep your plan if you like it. Period"?

Yep, and I trust Ricci about as much as I trust that one, which is to say not at all. But that doesn't mean I should think the 1108 leadership is out there working selflessly for my best interests. The company leadership is out for their own pocketbooks (as Ricci's investors have learned over the years, and I predict will learn again), but from what I've seen I wonder if it's any different with the 1108 leadership.

On gov't healthcare, I have to admit that Obama played the Republicrat leaders in congress over this issue, first in getting it passed, and then again during the recent shutdown. And I think anyone can reasonably see how Ricci played the 1108 in negotiations - in low payscale, but especially in scope. Not only is the Flex deal outside the scope clause in the contract, but the 'brand partner' rules are going to let Flex pilots fly FO trips with agency agreements. Wait and see. So what if that all counts as sell-off, there's no limit or penalty in the contract to cap sell-off. The template to limit that already existed in the NJ contract, this was just stupid.

This is going to be bad for the FO group, and the so-called protectors have been anything but. So what did we pay for, where did all those hundreds of thousands in dues go? I hope they at least asked for a refund from the so-called IBT scope expert that consulted on the contract.

Ricci is the shrewdest negotiator any of us is ever likely to meet, and without scruples when it comes to taking money in business. But he'll treat the Flex group better than the FO group, enough to show the obvious difference on how he feels about union shop vs non-union. When the money starts to get tight, the take aways will begin, but he's a master at keeping people not quite mad enough to act. Unlike what Shanes said in another thread, he does use lube - it's called snake oil. But the Options pilots are pretty much hosed from what I can see. The need is obvious for the protection of a contract, but this contract sucks, and the 1108 leadership is responsible for the contract and their decisions since. The pilots look to be pretty much on their own. I can't see any reason for the Flex pilots to act as long as they're treated well. Wish I knew what the answer was for the FO group.

 

[Praetorian]

BlueNose,

Although I can clearly see you've thought carefully about this matter and have drawn upon your knowledge and experience with regard to the law, as it relates to RLA pilot scope provisions to form your opinions, I'd like to ask you to consider several things you may have missed.

First, transaction involving DAC's purchase of Flex is not complete and may not be complete for several months. The union does not have the ability to enforce the scope provision contained within our contact unless it has been violated. DAC's actions, post transaction, will determine if there is a violation.

Second, since the transaction is not complete, it would be foolish of our union's leadership to speak prematurely about their plans to enforce our scope provision, should that become necessary.

Third, because of the union's silence on this topic, you really have no idea if our scope provision will stand up to this transaction. Unless I'm wrong and you're a scope attorney, or have consulted with one?

I find it interesting that you seem to believe the Flight Options pilots will somehow be at a disadvantage because of this transaction. We are going into this situation with a CBA and an experienced group of representatives to protect our interests. The Flex pilots have neither of these things and will be at the mercy of management.

In one respect I agree with you. There is no doubt KR will attempt to whipsaw the two pilot groups against one another. Those who profess to want to educate the Flex pilots about the evils of employment under KR are largely wasting their breath. The Flex pilots will have to learn about that for themselves. I think we can best help by answering their questions, when asked.

Aviation history has well established that the issues created by these types of transactions often take months and even years to work out. If the Flight Options and Flex pilots can stick together, resist the temptation to buy into all the FUD management has been and will inevitably throw our way and keep our eyes on the long game, we will all be OK.

 

[albatros101]

I don't think that the scope provision will stand up to this transaction as Flexjet LLC is not a air carrier.

 

[BlueNose]

BlueNose,

Although I can clearly see you've thought carefully about this matter and have drawn upon your knowledge and experience with regard to the law, as it relates to RLA pilot scope provisions to form your opinions, I'd like to ask you to consider several things you may have missed.

First, transaction involving DAC's purchase of Flex is not complete and may not be complete for several months. The union does not have the ability to enforce the scope provision contained within our contact unless it has been violated. DAC's actions, post transaction, will determine if there is a violation.

Second, since the transaction is not complete, it would be foolish of our union's leadership to speak prematurely about their plans to enforce our scope provision, should that become necessary.

Third, because of the union's silence on this topic, you really have no idea if our scope provision will stand up to this transaction. Unless I'm wrong and you're a scope attorney, or have consulted with one?

I find it interesting that you seem to believe the Flight Options pilots will somehow be at a disadvantage because of this transaction. We are going into this situation with a CBA and an experienced group of representatives to protect our interests. The Flex pilots have neither of these things and will be at the mercy of management.

In one respect I agree with you. There is no doubt KR will attempt to whipsaw the two pilot groups against one another. Those who profess to want to educate the Flex pilots about the evils of employment under KR are largely wasting their breath. The Flex pilots will have to learn about that for themselves. I think we can best help by answering their questions, when asked.

Aviation history has well established that the issues created by these types of transactions often take months and even years to work out. If the Flight Options and Flex pilots can stick together, resist the temptation to buy into all the FUD management has been and will inevitably throw our way and keep our eyes on the long game, we will all be OK.

I hope that you're right and I'm wrong, for the sake of the Options pilots. I don't see it that way, but I'll gladly be proved wrong in this case. I'm not a lawyer, just a pilot, but I think I can see the intended end game here, and it's a gloomy picture.

The scope exception that Kenn will try to exploit with Flex will let them become brand partners and fly our trips. Options becomes the 135 carrier to their company, replacing Jet Solutions. Following that, the Options pilot group is allowed to dwindle (or furloughed) to the 4.0 manning model in the contract - a level so low that they could never operate there independently (and which should never have been agreed to, by the way). We see it starting with the Hawker fleet already.

Flex will pick up the extra flying. Options will save money by having fewer pilots and no core fleet to pay for (the biggest capital requirement for most fractionals). Flex will pick up trips to help pay for their core fleet. It'll all look great for a while, the money will flow back and forth and a good portion will find its way into Kenn's pockets.

Meanwhile, the 'bad' children at FO who voted union will see no new planes or advancement, while the 'good' children at Flex will get the new toys. Of course it's not sustainable, the high rate of use and cheap maintenance will kill residual value for the Flex owners just like it did for the early Options owners, but the cash flow will look great long enough for Kenn and his gang to cash out. Whoever buys will be left with deferred maintenance, a tired fleet, and promises that can't be kept.

Maybe you can stop him, and make his arrogance his achilles heel. Or maybe I'm just too much of an Eeyore and none of this is in really in the cards. My hat's off to you if you can keep this from being a loss for the FO pilots. Please do so and prove me wrong. Good luck.

 

[SkyCat45]

Saw this on a website and thought I would share:

"A professional pilot sets the example: How you act both inside and outside the cockpit is a sign of a professional. On or off duty you still represent the company and of course yourself. Inappropraite behavor is simply not acceptable and you will quickly find yourself on the street. Many times young crewmembers may want to imitate the way you act. You want to make sure that you ALWAYS act in an appropriate and respectful way. I have heard stories of experienced pilots with profanity laced tirades in the FBO against their crew or staff. Your clients and crew are watching. What kind of example does that send? Is that someone you want to fly with? Another important point, with the myriad of chat rooms, blogs and message boards these days, what you say or upload can stay with you for a VERY long time. What you post on the web is pretty much there forever and the lack of civility I see these days is disturbing. Personal attacks against crewmembers on a web page or message board can have a detrimental effect to your future career. Remember that your online reputation can be as important as your offline one and employers do look for your online activities when they are considering hiring you. Having an opinion is fine, but be please respectful to others."

I know we have people that are very passionate about their ideas and experiences. Just thought I would share this and throw it out. I believe both Flight Options and FlexJet have great people working at their respective companies. Lets keep encouraging each other.

 

[Nolife]

I hear LXJ is offering interviews to furloughed FO guys. Nice move management, bypassing laid-off Flex folks who want to go back. Would have been nice to have some sort of requirement or contract saying they need to recall laid-off employees before going to the street.

 

[V1 Rotate]

I hear LXJ is offering interviews to furloughed FO guys. Nice move management, bypassing laid-off Flex folks who want to go back. Would have been nice to have some sort of requirement or contract saying they need to recall laid-off employees before going to the street.

They did.