FlexJet lays off 25 pilots

[realityman]

I could care less what situation THEY are in. They've HAD a LIFETIME. Most of them 35+ years at the airlines or elsewhere. Why should I suffer because they are ignorant with their finances or they just "LOVE FLYING"? They are grandparents for christ sake. I DO know what situation I'll be in at that age which is exactly why we wouldn't be having this conversation if it were me that was 70 because I have ethical values and morals. I know some of these guys and none of them are here because they HAVE to be. The ETHICAL thing to do here is to let someone who is starting their career have the opportunity they did. They have had their chance, step aside and save someone's family that HAS a future, from turmoil. It IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

Funniest post I've seen on here in a long time! LOL!!!

Oh man! So this guy absolutely KNOWS what situation the older folks are in right now? He must be some kind of computer hacker to know all of their financial situations, a great doctor to know what health they're in, and a tremendous historian to be able to tell if they've had the life experience he says they've had and should retire. Wow!!!

Guess what? I'm 39, and was on track to make my financial goals that would allow me to retire around 65 and live very comfortably. As of right now, barring some unforeseen market upswing the likes of which we've never seen before happening in the next 25-30 years, I'm now going to have to work until at least 73 to make my goals, assuming I'm able to maintain my medical.

That's life. It's not ethics. It's not morals. It doesn't matter if I have a family or not. If I'm able to keep working, I will. And if I don't need to work, but want to continue because I enjoy it, that is not indicative of poor ethics or morals. In fact , it's a GOOD work ethic.

Make your own way in life. Don't expect others to get out of your way just because you can't hack it on your own.

 

[realityman]

Oh, I'm also curious where Art thinks "old" is, and when it's time to retire?

I turn 40 this year. Is that old? How about 50? 55? 65? What about 75?

If I can keep my medical and keep passing checkrides, where should the retirement line be drawn?

What about finances? Should I retire when I meet my goals, even if I'm only 52? Who sets the bar at where sufficient finance to retire occurs anyway? So if I would like to have $3 million in my 401K before retiring, will that work for everyone? What if Art thinks $500,000 is plenty, and I should get out then?

The argument that the older folks have lived enough and should retire is so immature I hardly know where to begin. So if the FAA says airline pilots need to retire at 65, that means those guys have lived enough? Life doesn't exist after a certain age, and these oldsters should make way for the folks who have life left to live? Pretty stupid!! Good to know that when I retire Art thinks I've had enough living.

After all, living to me means enjoying all life has to offer, including flying the jets, if that's my passion!!

 

[gunfyter]

Reality,

Soylent Green is People....

Back on thread topic. The disturbing thing about fracs laying people off...

It wouldn't make sense if they saw the possibility of a return to a more normal economy sometime in 2009. The costs of training etc..

What did it cost Flex for 25 Challenger 300 type ratings? In the past they went after people who did not fullfill the training contract.

Training contracts should go both ways ... there should be pay to a person let go without cause during he contract period.

Anyway ... bean counters must see a long term problem.

 

[Flex-ible]

So this will bring up a question.....how is the company gonna save some money if they have to type all these guys that will probably be displaced?

Maybe have some Lear captains who already have 300 type ratings from their FO days move back (at LEar captain pay rate).

 

[Flex-ible]

I could care less what situation THEY are in. They've HAD a LIFETIME. Most of them 35+ years at the airlines or elsewhere. Why should I suffer because they are ignorant with their finances or they just "LOVE FLYING"? They are grandparents for christ sake. I DO know what situation I'll be in at that age which is exactly why we wouldn't be having this conversation if it were me that was 70 because I have ethical values and morals. I know some of these guys and none of them are here because they HAVE to be. The ETHICAL thing to do here is to let someone who is starting their career have the opportunity they did. They have had their chance, step aside and save someone's family that HAS a future, from turmoil. It IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

Ok, no dumping on grandparents. I'm 48, got a 26 year old son and a 2 year old grandson. Does that mean I have to retire?

Next, who says what kind of retirement these guys have? How many pilots do you know went from bankrupt airline to bankrupt airline, getting their pension whacked everytime?

Could some of them go home and live comfortably? Sure. All of them? not likely. And it's not my position to determine which is which.

 

[Flex-ible]

Reality,

It wouldn't make sense if they saw the possibility of a return to a more normal economy sometime in 2009. The costs of training etc..

What did it cost Flex for 25 Challenger 300 type ratings? In the past they went after people who did not fullfill the training contract.

Training contracts should go both ways ... there should be pay to a person let go without cause during he contract period.

Anyway ... bean counters must see a long term problem.

The "two way" of the training contract seems to be the pilots can take their ball and play elsewhere now. When XOJET gets their 300's, they will certainly be interested. So too are a number of operators in the Middle East.

With salary, benefits, recurrent training, etc it costs Flexjet abour $100,000 per year for an FO. They just knocked off expenses of $2.5 million, less severence (which in 2002 was 2-4 WEEKS, not months). If the cutback lasts more than 12 months, they save more than that. Experience says that 60% of these pilots will return, meaning they have only lost ten type ratings, or about $250,000.

The numbers work for them.

 

[CA1900]

Euthanasia for the old...

Suddenly I feel like renting Logan's Run...

 

[JokerFuel]

The bottom line is that there is nothing about this furlough that smells good. If things continue to spiral downward, there is no telling where it will end. Replacing a fifty thousand dollar a year plus income in this economy will be no easy task. This just plain sucks.
As for the older guys, I think it's unfair to demand retirement from them, or anyone for that matter. If you look at your own retirement portfolio you can only imagine how most others have been affected.
Morale will certainly suffer for this circumstance. Good luck to all the soon to be unemployed and their families.

 

[Dooker]

I love hearing all you young punks whine about guys like me hogging all your opportunities.

Back when I was FE on the good ol' 707, and you was still a gleam in your grandpappy's eye, I was out there putting it all on the line to help build this industry.

So I may have lost a step or two in the last fifty years. So what?

So I don't always do what that dang RA thing says I'm supposed to. So what if I have to get up and hit the head three times on a two hour leg? So what if it takes me an hour to send in my actuals on that dang whatchamajig? So what if I doze off over there without warning?

And what if I can't lift anything heavier than ten pounds over my head? What about it, hmm? Like it's my fault these rich punks can't figure out how to pack.

So what if I'm totally useless on the last day of a sixer? So what if I still can't figure out how to work that dang whatchamacallit with all them little buttons on it? So what if I throw a tantrum when the company changes the trip on me?

I earned the right to be here.

Just wish I would've save a little now and then.

 

[realityman]

Yeah, we get your sarcasm Dooker.

Thing is, all the guys over 60 (some over 70) have been excellent at all the things you're making fun of.

In fact last tour, I flew with a guy well north of 60, and he was getting to the bags faster than I did. He also had no problem moving the 65# raft into and out of the cabin and baggage compartment. I've flown with many "oldsters" and they do just fine with the physical side of this job.

Throw a fit when the schedule changes? Ha! I've seen the younger crowd do that far more often than the older crowd. It's always fun to watch a 20-something pilot make plans with an old drinking buddy in some city we're supposed to go to get all upset when the schedule changes at the last minute.

Useless on day 6? Haven't even seen it on day 7. Even with the sometimes extra early showtimes on the last couple days, they usually beat me to the hotel lobby by 5 minutes or so.

Can't adjust to the technology? Again, haven't seen it as a problem. As far as the actual flying and systems goes, these folks have been around the block plenty and know their stuff! Yes, there are a few who should be considering retirement from a skills point if view, but heck, I can say that about some young 'uns too.

Quite frankly, I see more attitudes of entitlement from the younger pilots than I ever do from the older ones. Far more whining from the younger ones.

Gun: That there is some funny stuff!! Soylent Green! Ha!! Now why am I hungry all of a sudden?

 

[realityman]

Uh, back on topic. Best of luck to all the Flex guys, young and old. That really sucks!!
All of you deserve better!

 

[Semore Butts]

Cmon Reality man! Don't you remember

When you were Dookers age and knew everything?

One thing is indesputable.

In my case, I'm 52, I've been every age between where myself and Dooker are.

He has no clue (nor did I, nor you, or anyone else) what will happen to him in the future.

You young guys are alright really.

Someday you will (if you are lucky) pick up the "baton" from us and be old guys.

I hope your man enough to admit what a fool you were in 2009.

Have a good one.

 

[Dooker]

Yeah, we get your sarcasm Dooker.

Thing is, all the guys over 60 (some over 70) have been excellent at all the things you're making fun of.

In fact last tour, I flew with a guy well north of 60, and he was getting to the bags faster than I did. He also had no problem moving the 65# raft into and out of the cabin and baggage compartment. I've flown with many "oldsters" and they do just fine with the physical side of this job.

Throw a fit when the schedule changes? Ha! I've seen the younger crowd do that far more often than the older crowd. It's always fun to watch a 20-something pilot make plans with an old drinking buddy in some city we're supposed to go to get all upset when the schedule changes at the last minute.

Useless on day 6? Haven't even seen it on day 7. Even with the sometimes extra early showtimes on the last couple days, they usually beat me to the hotel lobby by 5 minutes or so.

Can't adjust to the technology? Again, haven't seen it as a problem. As far as the actual flying and systems goes, these folks have been around the block plenty and know their stuff! Yes, there are a few who should be considering retirement from a skills point if view, but heck, I can say that about some young 'uns too.

Quite frankly, I see more attitudes of entitlement from the younger pilots than I ever do from the older ones. Far more whining from the younger ones.

Gun: That there is some funny stuff!! Soylent Green! Ha!! Now why am I hungry all of a sudden?

Mighty big of you to take up for all those old guys out there who still think the internet is a fad.

You're special!

 

[realityman]

Mighty big of you to take up for all those old guys out there who still think the internet is a fad.

You're special!

I know it! And smart and good looking to boot!:beer:

Nice of you to attack them on a medium you claim they don't know how to operate. Very big of you too.

 

[Dooker]

Nice of you to attack them on a medium you claim they don't know how to operate. Very big of you too.

Look, Realityman, I'm sure you mean well, but the simple fact is, old men have no place in the cockpit. There comes a time in life when you just have to declare victory and leave the field, instead of climbing back into the ring time and again like some tired old punch-drunk boxer.

I would encourage all of the Ancient Ones reading this (seriously, though. Who am I kidding?) to find something to fill their days with. Consider becoming a crossing guard. Start a coin collection, or maybe a garden. There's still lots out there for you, if only you look.

It's time to pass the baton on to younger, surer hands.

You've earned it.

 

[can99]

I would much rather fly with a 'older' person beside me than a 30 something dumb******************** ex airline FO who has now got his first captain job.

I hope I never have to fly with you dooker, you sound like a real fun guy to sit beside!

goodluck with your attitude.

 

[ProFracPilot]

old men have no place in the cockpit.

Here's your quandry, Dook: Define "old".

Good luck with that.

 

[TurboHonda]

I could care less what situation THEY are in. They've HAD a LIFETIME. Most of them 35+ years at the airlines or elsewhere. Why should I suffer because they are ignorant with their finances or they just "LOVE FLYING"? They are grandparents for christ sake. I DO know what situation I'll be in at that age which is exactly why we wouldn't be having this conversation if it were me that was 70 because I have ethical values and morals. I know some of these guys and none of them are here because they HAVE to be. The ETHICAL thing to do here is to let someone who is starting their career have the opportunity they did. They have had their chance, step aside and save someone's family that HAS a future, from turmoil. It IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

Thank you for your timely posts of your opinions. You’ve given me a bonus reason to work past the traditional retirement age. Irritating punks has always given me a special pleasure.

I suppose it’s because of all the spiked haired, underwear exposing, valley girl accented, pimple faced me generation kids that I’ve had to put up with in my life. I always felt that their prime motivation for being the way they were was just to upset their parents and anyone over 30.

I never dreamed that I would be in a position of ultimate payback.




Oh, I'm sorry Dookey. Did you say something too?

 

[shanes123]

Realityman you must have been very fortunate in who you have flown with..Any Comedian will tell you the funny part of a joke is the truth and Dookers post was hilarious. What made it so funny was that it is the truth. Its no fun getting stuck with these old guys and you suddenly become single pilot (and I mean in and out of the plane) Have I flown with young guys that do nothing? YES..But thats more laziness. Good Post Dooker
And back on topic for me. Lets hope Flex Jet gets back up on there feet soon so we can all prosper.

 

[Myster79]

Sorry Flex guy's about the furloughs. I feel for all of you, I got furloughed twice from FLOPS. IT DEFINITELY SUCKS!

As for the old pilots retiring.... I am only in my early thirties and I would love to be working right now. However, I do not believe that it is right to ask anyone to give up their job so I can continue flying! You have no idea what their situation is, stop whining and grow up. This is the career you chose and at some point you will be furloughed, just like the old guys were before us! This is nothing new and a lot of them went through it also. I guess it is our turn, so deal with it!

Now obviously if it was a safety issue then regardless of age they should not be in a cockpit.