FlexJet / Flight Options / SkyJet

[BE40Driver]

The 1108 forced my paycut when I was pushed out of the Hawker! Forced me to bid lines I don't want twice a year to work extra days during seam months. Force my vacation when I don't want it. There is NO protection from the union thugs! Be careful what you ask for!!

 

[Rupert.]

The 1108 forced my paycut when I was pushed out of the Hawker! Forced me to bid lines I don't want twice a year to work extra days during seam months. Force my vacation when I don't want it. There is NO protection from the union thugs! Be careful what you ask for!!

Spot on!

Hey Flex guys, if this truckers union is as great as they claim it to be, why did the largest fractional company out there drop them?

 

[Fresh Air]

The 1108 forced my paycut when I was pushed out of the Hawker! Forced me to bid lines I don't want twice a year to work extra days during seam months. Force my vacation when I don't want it. There is NO protection from the union thugs! Be careful what you ask for!!

All been gone over many times before. The 1108 gave mgt 3 different options to save your Hawker pay when your fleet was retired, but mgt dismissed them as being too expensive. As for the bid cycle, many of us like bidding twice a year, sorry you don't. As for the seam days and forced vacation, management managed to find loopholes in the CBA in order to screw the pilots. It's a first contract, and there are a few of those loopholes that will have to be fixed next year at the bargaining table.

Your inclination to hate the union is causing you to assign blame to the 1108, who are not thugs, but your fellow pilots, who only want the best for the whole pilot group, instead of FO management, who are the ones using every possible trick and loophole to screw you and the rest of us.

BTW, love the avatar, Grandpa Simpson!

 

[Fresh Air]

Spot on!

Hey Flex guys, if this truckers union is as great as they claim it to be, why did the largest fractional company out there drop them?

Hi Phil! It's a shame that nobody posts on your lame UPFO website so you have to come here and try to spread your scorching herpes.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Didn't the company take the position of "trust us" on the seam period?

 

[Club ORD FO]

Can somebody lay out a road map of how things are going to provide and what options flex pilots will have? Some people think that there will be a vote on keeping the groups separate, some think that will will get to vote on keeping the union or note. Is a merger a sure thing or can it only happen when the NMB gets involved? I'm not to sure on any of this. What are some possible outcomes? We obviously want to keep our pay, schedules, and benefits. I think if we had the choice, most of us would prefer to stay separate lists. Is that not at all ann option through an LOA? Is it in everyones best interest if we just stay in our own sandbox?

Lets say a merger is on the horizon, if the choices are vote yes to union and lose pay/benefits/schedules, then its going to be a really hard sell.

I dunno. This sounds like a mess and we at flex are very confused about the process, timeline, and possible outcomes.

 

[warlord19]

Club Ord FO et al
I don’t find our situation that confusing. Flexjet was bought by DAC in order to remain competitive in the marketplace. Our now brother company FLOPS, having unionized in the past for whatever reasons, now demands that we join their ranks in order to defend ourselves from the evil and diabolical KR, the destroyer of all things good and just. I find their posts a little overboard ie bullsh**t(having talked to quite a few of their pilots on the road), and will take a wait and see position. I can live with the changes made so far, but if our work rules and benefits start going south, will hold my nose and vote in the IBT (or, hopefully, an alternative). The union goons postings on this board on how evil everything is at FLOPS tells me as much about them as about FLOPS.
Cheers,
WL19

 

[BE40Driver]

Fresh air, You say WE are the 1108 and I have flown with and next to the Horse Head. I have seen them work harder at trying NOT to work than doing there job! I had one tell me " He works for the 1108 and NOT Flightoptions". A real Bone Head! It is a breath of FRESH AIR wen I don't have to fly with the Horse Rear. BTW, the Horse Heads on the ID Badges are getting less and less seen on the road.

 

[chainring]

Think about it guys. Why do you think Kenn wants the Union gone. Because then he can do whatever he wants. There's your answer. Bombardier is gone.

You may not have needed a Union then but assure me you need it here. And if you vote it away it only took us 5 years to get our first contract. So vote it away and we won't have protection here until probably 2019.

I wish the Flex pilots could see past the pay issue. There is so much more to a CBA. Right now you guys are sitting at a cushy plane to pilot ratio. That will change. You haven't been exposed to the 10/24 warning world yet. That will change. How many times to Options guys here "realistically scheduled". And without a contract you can't say no to anything. At Will employment.

I got into a huge argument with 3 of these middle managers recently about exceeding the demonstrated crosswind component of the plane. They told me they were giving me approval to exceed the limitation. When I said no it got bumped to 3 different managers each one getting more forceful. It wasn't until when I said okay let's get a Steward involved that for some reason they just dropped it.

This middle management team here at Options are some real scumbags. They will throw you under the bus in a heartbeat. Reinhold, Kalic, Ridgeway, Anguish, Montie, Scott, Salata. And if you vote away the protection of the Union imagine the fun of the CGF1 arrival with no one to represent you.

I would love to make more money and with our contract coming up let's see what we can do. But here is something to ponder. With what I know from having worked here for 15 years would I give up the contract we have to make more money?
HELL NO!!! With this management team I want the contract. Period.

Ask Katai how many pilots are called to Cleveland each year for investigatory meetings. Without a contract we are f#%ked with this group.

Remember this ain't Bombardier any more. This is Ricci world.

 

[hammer2]

Rumor is that the FO pilots would get bumped up to Flex pay if the 1108 is decertified.

 

[DirtyBeech]

Rumor is that the FO pilots would get bumped up to Flex pay if the 1108 is decertified.

Like you couldn't see that coming from a mile away.

 

[notapilot]

The best shot at Flight Options keeping their 1108 and having a shot at a next CBA is not to petition for single system. There is enough fracture within your ranks that a majority of 325 Flexjet pilots voting for no representation would likely result as the winner. It makes no sense to want us to vote with you and risk your goal of a next contract.

 

[DirtyBeech]

It may be the flex side that calls for the vote.

 

[dime line]

Rumor is that the FO pilots would get bumped up to Flex pay if the 1108 is decertified.

So you have personally talked to Kenn Ricci and he told you this? What did he tell you would happen the day after the 1108 was booted?

 

[Club ORD FO]

Club Ord FO et al
I don?t find our situation that confusing. Flexjet was bought by DAC in order to remain competitive in the marketplace. Our now brother company FLOPS, having unionized in the past for whatever reasons, now demands that we join their ranks in order to defend ourselves from the evil and diabolical KR, the destroyer of all things good and just. I find their posts a little overboard ie bullsh**t(having talked to quite a few of their pilots on the road), and will take a wait and see position. I can live with the changes made so far, but if our work rules and benefits start going south, will hold my nose and vote in the IBT (or, hopefully, an alternative). The union goons postings on this board on how evil everything is at FLOPS tells me as much about them as about FLOPS.
Cheers,
WL19

Warlord, I agree that if DAC messes with out pay and benefits we will all vote for the IBT, but the problem is, DAC knows that and so they won't make any changes until after the union is decertified.

The IBT needs to come up with a plan for the flex folks. If you want us to play in the same sandbox, what's gonna happen to our seats/pay/schedule/benefits/QOL? From what I gather, if single carrier status is stated by the NMB, then a new contract is written up? The concern obviously is that flex will go backwards.

I dunno, I'm just rambling now. So many paths with outcomes that can't be determined without more info.

 

[GooseHZ]

BE400

I have flown with anti-union guys who knowingly try and break rules....fly sick...fly tired....never write a/c up when they need to...they get the job done and hand the jet off. This puts us all in jeopardy of losing our jobs. Just look at the Phenom overrun. The pic was a company man. They where( imho by looking at their week )suffering from cumulative fatigued. But the pic never called it. They ended up 1000ft off the runway on a road. You want to talk about bone heads....leaving engine plugs in on start up then lying about it for days....letting the psm push them even tho they aren't comfortable.....come on Brother these company boys are far more dangerous to the future of the company than any Union pilot.

 

[Brit]

Union/No Union, life will go on. What ever is going to happen in the future is going to happen and life will go on. Go home and hug your wife, kids, girlfriend, mistress etc.. and don't obsess over all this. None of what is going on right now is worth fighting with each other and creating a toxic work environment.

 

[chainring]

The best shot at Flight Options keeping their 1108 and having a shot at a next CBA is not to petition for single system. There is enough fracture within your ranks that a majority of 325 Flexjet pilots voting for no representation would likely result as the winner. It makes no sense to want us to vote with you and risk your goal of a next contract.

The problem with this I think if the Options pilots try to keep it separate then Ricci will just slowly dissolve us. He doesn't really care he wins. He has another company. If the lists merge and the Union is voted out he wins. What he doesn't want is the lists to merge and the Union voted in. That's the only win for the pilots.

 

[Praetorian]

Warlord, I agree that if DAC messes with out pay and benefits we will all vote for the IBT, but the problem is, DAC knows that and so they won't make any changes until after the union is decertified.

The IBT needs to come up with a plan for the flex folks. If you want us to play in the same sandbox, what's gonna happen to our seats/pay/schedule/benefits/QOL? From what I gather, if single carrier status is stated by the NMB, then a new contract is written up? The concern obviously is that flex will go backwards.

I dunno, I'm just rambling now. So many paths with outcomes that can't be determined without more info.

The way I understand it, if a single carrier is filed and the entire transportation system (F.O. Flex and furloughed) votes to be represented by the IBT the combined group would work under the current CBA. Of course fence agreements, as provided for in the CBA, would be negotiated to protect current fleet and seat positions, schedules etc. Fence agreements could also cover wages. I doubt the IBT, or any union for that matter, is going to be on-board for anyone taking pay cuts.

Also our current CBA becomes amendable (does not expire as KR said during his meeting) in late October, I think, so this would provide an opportunity to make improvements. During the negotiation period status quo would be in effect so nothing changes until a new contract is ratified by the pilots.

The union announced a while ago that they are meeting with the company on February 28th to discuss all of this. I think a lot more will be clear after that. Could probably go in a number of different directions.

One thing is for sure, there are people in management who must love the infighting they are witnessing on here. If we can find a way to all stick together we are all going to be fine.

 

[dime line]

Union/No Union, life will go on. What ever is going to happen in the future is going to happen and life will go on. Go home and hug your wife, kids, girlfriend, mistress etc.. and don't obsess over all this. None of what is going on right now is worth fighting with each other and creating a toxic work environment.

you don't get it Ricci has a long list at FLOPS and FLEX of guys that will be gotten rid of if the union is voted out, good people too! We have worked under Ricci, and we have endured his management style. We have all put a lot of time in this company to just give up what we have.

Also at FLOPS its not that Toxic because we don't get pushed (mostly from Middle Management) and its in writing so they cant mess with it, they have found loopholes (to be expected from a 1st contract), but for the most part not Toxic

 

[Club ORD FO]

The problem with this I think if the Options pilots try to keep it separate then Ricci will just slowly dissolve us. He doesn't really care he wins. He has another company. If the lists merge and the Union is voted out he wins. What he doesn't want is the lists to merge and the Union voted in. That's the only win for the pilots.

not sure i agree. Flex is actually shrinking, while options is the one growing. Flex is going to have 4 year and new airplanes, and evidently our old ones are coming your way. So he can't just transfer flying to flex, he has to buy new planes to grow flex. easier to grow options. Of course that plan could change anytime


So let me ask this, why not just have two separate lists? Perhaps after your next contract would be a better time to petition for single carrier. It's just going to be a tough sell currently to flex pilots.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

From a strong ANTI-UNION guy prior to options.
Fresh Air+1 and
Fr8+2

 

[DirtyBeech]

So let me ask this, why not just have two separate lists? Perhaps after your next contract would be a better time to petition for single carrier. It's just going to be a tough sell currently to flex pilots.

They have plenty of time. If they are right about KR then he will surely piss off the Flex pilot group while they negotiate for an industry standard pay scale and 401k match. There's no rush.

 

[luckydog]

The way I understand it, if a single carrier is filed and the entire transportation system (F.O. Flex and furloughed) votes to be represented by the IBT the combined group would work under the current CBA. Of course fence agreements, as provided for in the CBA, would be negotiated to protect current fleet and seat positions, schedules etc. Fence agreements could also cover wages. I doubt the IBT, or any union for that matter, is going to be on-board for anyone taking pay cuts.

That's close to what I was told. If/when a single carrier petition is filed and found to be true (as it will be), then there will be another vote to determine how the entire group is operated. It could be under the IBT, it could be a different union, or it could be as direct employees.

Until the determination vote, each group continues working under their current arrangement.

I'm still trying to finish reading the NMB stuff to verify this information. But to assume the Flex pilots are automatically covered by the Options CBA after a single carrier determination might not be accurate.

 

[jetwash]

With the 3 voting options.
IBT
Other union
No union

Is it majority wins or does one have to have over 50%?

 

[Club ORD FO]

majority of those who cast votes. for the single carrier petition, that one has to be 50% of the total eligible voters

 

[V1 Rotate]

50% + 1

 

[chainring]

not sure i agree. Flex is actually shrinking, while options is the one growing. Flex is going to have 4 year and new airplanes, and evidently our old ones are coming your way. So he can't just transfer flying to flex, he has to buy new planes to grow flex. easier to grow options. Of course that plan could change anytime


All that was, was a slide show. The problem with Ricci is he's a liar. And will smile at you while he's doing it. Ricci comes up with great ideas, problem is he rarely follows thru with them. We've had more 4 to 6 airplane fleets then any company out there. We're going to start this program and grow it to 15+. Well maybe not now. That costs money. I really don't know what you guys had before but do you really believe from what you've heard and seen so far since the first announcement that he is just going to pay you guys a ton of money and keep your nice schedule intact. His philosophy since the Corporate Wings days has always been, minimum crews, maximum duty. I would just really think hard about do you really want to be a "at will employee".

 

[Praetorian]

I'm still trying to finish reading the NMB stuff to verify this information. But to assume the Flex pilots are automatically covered by the Options CBA after a single carrier determination might not be accurate.

My understanding is this happens after a single carrier determination and a yes vote for representation. A no vote means a return to at-will for Flex pilots and a downgrade to at-will for Options pilots. The latter is difficult to contemplate.

 

[Propilot77]

Stop the Madness

Look....No one at Flex wants to say this so I guess I will. Everything that has been told to us has been all LIES!!!! From upgrades, to "Guys wait and see it's going to be like being shot out of a cannon" to Insurance coverage and now shrinkage with no furloughs HAHAHA what a joke!!! Now you have all these Flex coolaid drinkers thinking and saying on yammer that "Flexjet will take care of me they always have!" While yes, they have taken care us in the past what you guys fail to realize is that this isn't BOMBARDIER ANYMORE you fools! Keep numbing yourselves from the truth and one day you will all wake up and say "Well Dagnamit it boys, shucks where'd Ya'll go!" I for one have faith in the FLOPS guys telling the truth more about the future and not management! You called it my friends yes you did!