Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

FlexJet / Flight Options / SkyJet

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
Register   Log in
I wonder if Kenn will tell you the same things tomorrow that he told us yesterday, or if the ever moving cheese has moved in the day between. Good luck anyway, I hope things work out well for all of us.
 
TWA 2 ASA FO said:
Furloughed pilots don't get to vote. They are not active members. We at Flex outnumber the Flight Options group that gets to vote.

Don't let the few union leaders on here scare you. The Flight Options pilot group us very divided. If KR offers something close to our pay to get rid of 1108 I think the union would be very suprised how many if their members jump ship.
Click to expand...

Finally there is someone on this site that gets it. You are spot on.

As I have said before, voting in a union is like choosing to have a scorching case of herpes. Once you have it, you cant get rid of it. I know you Flex guys are nervous, but do you really want to make a choice that you are stuck with until retirement? Give the man a chance, he wasnt the one that caused the horrible conditions we faced years ago.
 
TWA 2 ASA FO said:
Furloughed pilots don't get to vote. They are not active members. We at Flex outnumber the Flight Options group that gets to vote.

Don't let the few union leaders on here scare you. The Flight Options pilot group us very divided. If KR offers something close to our pay to get rid of 1108 I think the union would be very suprised how many if their members jump ship.
Click to expand...

You are wrong. They get to vote. Look it up.
 
You are wrong. They get to vote. Look it up.


Really can't as we don't have a copy of you're contract.

Instead of just telling him that he is wrong, you could prove it to him by posting that section of your CBA.
 
When I hear Rupert pleading to "give the man a chance", my first reply is: we already have. That's the point ladies and gentlemen: We already have.

We also gave Nahill & Scheeringa chances & were sorely disappointed. That's my second point: We've given every leader a chance. We've been there & done that. Thank you, but no, I'll work with the company under the terms of a written contract. It's just business. (BTW: each of the ceo's have had contracts: why shouldn't we?)

We learned the hard way that policies and work rules can be changed with the proverbial stroke of a pen. Ask any Options pilot: a contract does not guarantee or protect you against everything.

But the things it does protect against our incredibly valuable.

Here's something I'll re-post prior to the vote, and no, I have no inside info on exactly when that'll be. I only know this will take several months to play out.

We learned several painful lessons giving our leaders "a chance". We also learned several hard lessons during the Travel Air "merger". One of those lessons is that both work groups are gonna need each other. Period. There is a great deal of potential for all us & our employers in terms of work rules, quality of life, and yes pay. We'll achieve none of that by remaining divided.

Can I point to a single part of the contract that I dislike? Just one? I can give you two or three parts I believe needing serious adjusting. So what? Overall, it's an excellent document & I'm proud of it.

Our contract is not perfect, but it's built to be improved.

I can also pick apart a couple things I like & dislike about the company & the individuals I fly with. And they can certainly do the same about me. That's not a reason to disqualify the union. It's an excuse not to participate and a tactic to bust the union.

Uncle learned some lessons, as well. But most importantly, we did learn those lessons and we remember them well. However crudely we may convey our message now, it's only because of the intensity of the lessons we learned.
 
Last edited:
Don't let the few union leaders on here scare you. The Flight Options pilot group us very divided. If KR offers something close to our pay to get rid of 1108 I think the union would be very suprised how many if their members jump ship.[/QUOTE]

Yep your absolutely right. Something to get rid of the Union. And then what. You really think your going to just keep that pay. Without a contract you have nothing but a temporary raise that will slowly be taken away with time. And absolutely "zero" work rules. Ask the Options guys how many times before the CBA did you wake up in the morning and a new email explaining a new policy that just took away a bennie. And you might as well as get used to the 20 hour duty day because that was probably one of the best changes we got with the contract. If the contract is so bad then why does he want to get rid of the Union so badly. Cause he knows he will be negotiating in better times for the pilots and if the Flex guys are now part of it then theres the fact of there pay. He doesn't want to have to be bound to pay higher salaries and benefits. So if he can get the Union off the property he can do as he pleases.

Everyone always talks about good jobs in Aviation: FedEx , Delta, Southwest, Netjets, Ups , United. Funny there all Union shops. I don't think those companies just gave those pay rates, work rules and QOL improvements just out of the goodness of there little hearts. No they were fought for by pilot groups.
 
Rupert. said:
Finally there is someone on this site that gets it. .
Click to expand...

Phil you and TWA need to get your Facts Straight before you lash out.

TWA wants no Union and you are a In house union leader.......what a pair.


This will be fun to watch over the next year....
 
chainring said:
Everyone always talks about good jobs in Aviation: FedEx , Delta, Southwest, Netjets, Ups , United. Funny there all Union shops. I don't think those companies just gave those pay rates, work rules and QOL improvements just out of the goodness of there little hearts. No they were fought for by pilot groups.
Click to expand...


This is the problem you face. No one at Flex has worked for one of the premier outfits. They only know how a sh**ty union operated at a sh**ty job. And none will have a reply to the above statement.

No one, and I mean nobody, got on yammer and sang KR's praises when we were bought. There's not a soul who's was thrilled to be involved with him. He's still an unknown entity at Flex, but he doesn't have a sterling rep in our industry. And now those same folks, after being threatened about the use of sick days or shamed and lied to about driving into work in icy conditions, are ready to take another leap of faith. Scary indeed.

I'd like to think that good men and women ran good companies using the best of intentions. The problem is that little thing called reality. Many ask why would KR an DAC seek to screw up a good thing and interfere with their revenue stream? Like it's never occurred to them that maybe the flighty SOB doesn't know any better, and that the top levels of management are wagging it just like the rest of us.
 
Rupert
The LOCAL 1108 has heard from many of us and its going to take some work to get a contract that will pass this time around. As for you and your in-house union-you can keep it along with your scorching case of herpes.
 
Pretty sure if the furloughs don't have a negotiated right to vote, they don't get to vote.
 
I'd like to hear from the prognosticators at Options. What percentage of your guys will vote to keep 1108? I'm guessing about 25% of our guys will vote for representation.
 
doh said:
I'd like to hear from the prognosticators at Options. What percentage of your guys will vote to keep 1108? I'm guessing about 25% of our guys will vote for representation.
Click to expand...

The number of flex pilots who will vote for the union depends on what happens to our pay, and jobs, if we vote yes and join. Would we lose pay, schedules, benefits, and our work rules (sure you have some rules that are better, but ours are pretty good. no early AM wake up calls here either)? It'll be hard to convince any of us to vote yes if we lose pay in the end.
 
Really, no updates

Thank you guys at Flex,
Please can you tell us a few things KR told you.

Besides that you are .......................... because DAC loves you.
You guys and girls are nice people so let us know about the free bees you will get when we will just have to change our rotating beacons to a blue light.
 
ProFracPilot said:
Thanks. That wasn't so hard, was it?
Click to expand...

Nobody likes a smartass :) Let me make it even easier for you.

See page 11.

Furloughed Employees
Furloughed employees are eligible to vote in the craft or class in which they last worked if they retain an employee-employer relationship and have a reasonable expectation of returning to work. Furloughed employees regularly working in another craft or class are ineligible to vote in the craft or class from which the employees are furloughed.

I hope you Flex guys make the connection. This is why he ran the CitationAir ruse. He wants to trick the FO furlowed pilots into being pissed at the union. He wants their help voting it out.
 
My opinion doesn't really matter but I'm gonna say something that no one is gonna like but has to be considered (from the flex side...)

No matter what your opinions are on KR, unions etc... Would the prudent thing to do is vote for decertification so the currently furloughed (180 plus) FO guys don't factor into seats, assignments, integration etc... I know that's a rather selfish and crappy attitude but I'm worried about my family, not yours...

If the situation warrants then a new union could be decided on (yes I know it takes time etc...) in the future...

FYI, I am fairly pro union - and the half truths and smoke and mirror show thus far in 2014 have put me more comfortably in that camp - but in the end, have we all to do what's best for us personally bad for where one falls on the seniority list the best option might be no union...

It's like someone said to my husband - it's a great time to be an investor in KR, a horrible time to be his employee... Lots of unknowns for the latter amongst a group of people not known to be free spirits (nor would you want them to be)
 
Praetorian said:
Nobody likes a smartass :) Let me make it even easier for you.

See page 11.

Furloughed Employees
Furloughed employees are eligible to vote in the craft or class in which they last worked if they retain an employee-employer relationship and have a reasonable expectation of returning to work. Furloughed employees regularly working in another craft or class are ineligible to vote in the craft or class from which the employees are furloughed.

I hope you Flex guys make the connection. This is why he ran the CitationAir ruse. He wants to trick the FO furlowed pilots into being pissed at the union. He wants their help voting it out.
Click to expand...

But have they retained "an employee-employer relationship and have a reasonable expectation of returning to work. Furloughed employees regularly working in another craft or class are ineligible to vote in the craft or class from which the employees are furloughed." ? Doubtful

See NMB Case No. R-6933 United Airlines, Inc. where the company was trying to include furloughed former employees as eligible voters and the NMB, and the unions, said not so fast buckaroo!
 
flex*wife said:
No matter what your opinions are on KR, unions etc... Would the prudent thing to do is vote for decertification so the currently furloughed (180 plus) FO guys don't factor into seats, assignments, integration etc... I know that's a rather selfish and crappy attitude but I'm worried about my family, not yours...

If the situation warrants then a new union could be decided on (yes I know it takes time etc...) in the future...
Click to expand...

You seem to be under the impression that senority will still matter if there is no union. It will not matter how long you were at Flex or Fo, what will matter is how close you are to the middle managers.

Aircraft seats, schedules, vacations will first be given to the " good old boys" at the company. Unless you are a friend of TM, BR, Jk, JS you will get what is left over vacations and time off during the holidays will be divided by L$. If you don't like it you can complain to TM,Br,JK,JS and see how that goes.

. I am sure that there is nothing in that one page agreement that states how bidding will be done and how complaints will be handled.

As for later voting in a union, it would take a minimum of 1 year to go through all the procedureres then another 4 years to negotiate a first contract. Plus who would help with the start up funds if you already votedout one union that was already on property. If 6 months after voting the union out your spouses pay was cut or his work schedule increased without any extra pay. Would you be happy to wait 5 years to be in a position to try to get it back.
 
flex*wife said:
My opinion doesn't really matter but I'm gonna say something that no one is gonna like but has to be considered (from the flex side...)

No matter what your opinions are on KR, unions etc... Would the prudent thing to do is vote for decertification so the currently furloughed (180 plus) FO guys don't factor into seats, assignments, integration etc... I know that's a rather selfish and crappy attitude but I'm worried about my family, not yours...

If the situation warrants then a new union could be decided on (yes I know it takes time etc...) in the future...

FYI, I am fairly pro union - and the half truths and smoke and mirror show thus far in 2014 have put me more comfortably in that camp - but in the end, have we all to do what's best for us personally bad for where one falls on the seniority list the best option might be no union...

It's like someone said to my husband - it's a great time to be an investor in KR, a horrible time to be his employee... Lots of unknowns for the latter amongst a group of people not known to be free spirits (nor would you want them to be)
Click to expand...

Decertification is the worst possible outcome. The only way to protect ourselves from Ricci, and, more importantly, from the realities of the market place which views pilots as nothing more than overpaid taxi drivers, is to band together across the two companies and use our collective bargaining power to protect what we have and improve upon it. For people who are actually pro-union, that is about as basic as it gets. Decertification and putting individual self interests ahead of all other considerations, including the well being of co-workers and our profession, it's the logic of those who have destroyed the pilot profession.
 
Praetorian said:
See subsection 9.204 of the NMB?s Representation Manual
http://www.nmb.gov/representation/representation-manual.pdf
Click to expand...

Furloughed employees are eligible to vote in the craft or class in which they last worked if they retain an employee-employer relationship and have a reasonable expectation of returning to work. Furloughed employees regularly working in another craft or class are ineligible to vote in the craft or class from which the employees are furloughed.

So if you are flying somewhere else, you don't have a right to vote?
 
doh said:
Furloughed employees are eligible to vote in the craft or class in which they last worked if they retain an employee-employer relationship and have a reasonable expectation of returning to work. Furloughed employees regularly working in another craft or class are ineligible to vote in the craft or class from which the employees are furloughed.

So if you are flying somewhere else, you don't have a right to vote?
Click to expand...

No they get to vote. The NMB has historically been very generous on this. They don't want to disenfranchise anyone.
 
flex*wife said:
My opinion doesn't really matter but I'm gonna say something that no one is gonna like but has to be considered (from the flex side...)

No matter what your opinions are on KR, unions etc... Would the prudent thing to do is vote for decertification so the currently furloughed (180 plus) FO guys don't factor into seats, assignments, integration etc... I know that's a rather selfish and crappy attitude but I'm worried about my family, not yours...

If the situation warrants then a new union could be decided on (yes I know it takes time etc...) in the future...

FYI, I am fairly pro union - and the half truths and smoke and mirror show thus far in 2014 have put me more comfortably in that camp - but in the end, have we all to do what's best for us personally bad for where one falls on the seniority list the best option might be no union...

It's like someone said to my husband - it's a great time to be an investor in KR, a horrible time to be his employee... Lots of unknowns for the latter amongst a group of people not known to be free spirits (nor would you want them to be)
Click to expand...

Wow talk about F...your buddy!! and F... the pilot next to you
 
Praetorian said:
Decertification is the worst possible outcome. The only way to protect ourselves from Ricci, and, more importantly, from the realities of the market place which views pilots as nothing more than overpaid taxi drivers, is to band together across the two companies and use our collective bargaining power to protect what we have and improve upon it. For people who are actually pro-union, that is about as basic as it gets. Decertification and putting individual self interests ahead of all other considerations, including the well being of co-workers and our profession, it's the logic of those who have destroyed the pilot profession.
Click to expand...

+1, Never been a been union fan until I met Ricci. Working for Ricci without a CBA is more dangerous than unprotected sex. Flex wifey is worried about herself and all those vacation days that were lost.
 
For the record:

I would not support, nor vote for, any solution to this integration issue that would result in any pay or benefit cut for you Flex crews. The objective should be a solution which results in the integrated group achieving the best of both worlds: Flex crews getting the protection from abuse that a CBA offers, and the Options crews pay and benefits being increased to the level that the Flex crews enjoy. There are contract tools, such as LOA's and fences that can be used to make this a reality.

We can expect DAC management to fight this tooth and nail, because their goal as a business will be maximum cost savings and control. They will push hard for no contract, which gives them license to change everything else with an email.
 

Share this page

Latest posts

Latest resources

Latest media

Carbon Cub FX-3 Shenandoah Valley
Carbon Cub at Kittyhawk
FX-3 in the backcountry
IFR Panel in a Carbon Cub FX-3
Cub-Provo-UT-c.jpg
Back
Top Bottom