FlexJet / Flight Options / SkyJet

[Rupert.]

CL300

This is above my pay grade. But IMHO the IBT would ask DAC via LOA to maintain your pay and negotiate fence agreements. No loss of pay or seat.

This is BS and you know it. The IBT wouldnt agree to let us Hawker and X guys keep our pay when the company wanted to pay protect us. There is no way they are going to allow you to stay at your current salary.

You Flex guys need to ask yourself, if KR's end goal is to get rid of this union, then why would he screw you over after it is voted out? You also need to realize that he wasn't the one that made this place become unionized, that was MS.

 

[GooseHZ]

Flex is not shedding aircraft and the Flex pilots didn't vote for the contract Phil. The Union and the company where following the contract...until the company tried to pull the pay protection move that was pure Union busting 101. No contract that I know of protects pay after a fleet type is removed from service. The Union didn't sell your Hawker Phil the company did. How can you represent a pilot group when you don't even want to follow the contract as it's written?

 

[chainring]

Flex is not shedding aircraft and the Flex pilots didn't vote for the contract Phil. The Union and the company where following the contract...until the company tried to pull the pay protection move that was pure Union busting 101. No contract that I know of protects pay after a fleet type is removed from service. The Union didn't sell your Hawker Phil the company did. How can you represent a pilot group when you don't even want to follow the contract as it's written?

Hahaha. Phil and his management stooges are a joke. God help us all if the Flexjet group buys into any of his crap. Oh yeah please let Ed May the biggest back stabber around represent me when I get called in for not going over 14 hours .

 

[Necromonger]

So, let me get this straight... You guys are asking the Flex guys to vote in your 1108? Then, they too can tag along to the worst contract in the industry.
Wow... That sound wonderful. Where do I sign up for that huge paycut and A$$ reaming?

 

[chief9404]

So, let me get this straight... You guys are asking the Flex guys to vote in your 1108? Then, they too can tag along to the worst contract in the industry.
Wow... That sound wonderful. Where do I sign up for that huge paycut and A$$ reaming?

The contract is more than just pay. Just look at how bad NJA's pay was until the 1108 renegotiated the second contract. Flops contract was signed at a time when the economy was in a downturn. There is only 1 year left and it can only get better.

DAC owns many companies. They give 401k matches to all of them except Flops. Flops consists of union and non union employees. To punish the entire company including non union employees do to his dislike of the 1108 is deplorable. I will never trust them. I've never cared for unions but here it's a necessary evil.

 

[chief9404]

This is BS and you know it. The IBT wouldnt agree to let us Hawker and X guys keep our pay when the company wanted to pay protect us. There is no way they are going to allow you to stay at your current salary.

You Flex guys need to ask yourself, if KR's end goal is to get rid of this union, then why would he screw you over after it is voted out? You also need to realize that he wasn't the one that made this place become unionized, that was MS.

You sir are either dumb or clueless. Let me explain this to you.

In order to deviate from a contract a LOA must be signed. Any deviation without a LOA can be detrimental to the contract. If a deviation precedent has been allowed the company would continue to violate the contract and the union would have no recourse.

Why don't you go read a arbitration ruling. I bet one of the first things the arbitrator will ask the union. Has there ever been a deviation allowed?

I would bet your one of the naive pilots trying to start an in-house union. If you are, just be aware your leading them off a cliff.

 

[Necromonger]

Interesting...
Is there a good reason why the 1108 didn't fight to get this LOA? Why wasn't the initial contract worded to protect folks from fleet retirement? This is aviation. Did your 1108 leadership think that you would operate those particular aircraft forever?

Instead, the 1108 leadership buried their heads in the sand, and asked those guys to take one for the team. No matter what, a bad deal all around for the pilot group.

Leadership can make or break a union.... Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

 

[GooseHZ]

NO contract has pay protection for retiring fleet types. That's why the COMPANY puts the language in and the Union signed off on it. Standard language....ask anyone who knows more than you about negotiating new contacts.

 

[GooseHZ]

Nec

Let's me ask you this.

After 5yrs the globals being retired. Just didn't work out. Your a CL300 pic making 165k.....The global pic was making 210k....he is now a CL300 pilot making 210k on a airframe that doesn't produce the same revenue for the company and he's doing the same job you are.

Are you ok with this?

Next

I challenge you to find ANY management team ANYWHERE that would put that language in a contract.

You can't. It's a dead issue brought up by folks who don't understand or who are anti-union.

 

[GooseHZ]

Did management think they would have Hawkers forever? Why did management hide their heads in the sand and screw those pilots? They should have known about that years in advance! Why did management sign the contract with that in there!!?

(That was sarcasm in case you missed it)

 

[Necromonger]

Ok.
I see what you are saying here. That's probably why the globals are being structured the way they are. If the Global goes away, leave or go back in the mix. Makes sense.

I guess these folks are just SOL when their fleet gets retired.

 

[JokerFuel]

Way too many "If's" in this scenario. Perhaps we will know more tomorrow and perhaps not. My question is, " How the hell does an SLI benefit a flex pilot with ten years or less seniority?" In my opinion and SLI only benefits current FLOPS pilots per pay and seniority. Nothing against you guys...everyone I've met on the FLOPS side have been really great, but from where I sit in the big scheme of things.....looks like a ******************** job. Guess we will find out tomorrow, but I have reservations about the truth really being told then.

 

[GooseHZ]

The guys working without a CBA are SOL. The pilots operating under a CBA with an effective Union as a steward of the contract aren't. They have language that allows them to move fleets and get paid for what they can hold. Better than being on the street.

Thanks for your well thought out courteous reply. We need more civil discussion and less name calling.

 

[GooseHZ]

KR said it himself yesterday. More questions than answers. We will have to wait and see ect ect. The only thing any of us can count on is what is written down in a legally binding CBA for the entire pilot group.

The fence agreements if the company signs off should keep you in your seat and the LOA should keep your pay until the new contract is done. But that's a whole different animal and will come later and from folks that know fence agreements much better than I.

 

[Praetorian]

So, let me get this straight... You guys are asking the Flex guys to vote in your 1108? Then, they too can tag along to the worst contract in the industry.
Wow... That sound wonderful. Where do I sign up for that huge paycut and A$$ reaming?

Have you read the agreement? It's 300 pages and covers a lot of ground, work rules, schedules, scope protections .



But I think the most important part of it is the just cause provision. It says that in order for the company to discipline or discharge a pilot they must prove they have just cause to do so in front of an arbitrator. You, on the other hand as an at-will employee, can be fired for a good reason, a bad reason, or no reason at all. Just ask the dozens of Flight Options pilots who have been protected by the union since the CBA was ratified if they'd rather be at-will.

I just don't understand why some guys get this twisted around. Choice #1, at-will employment, where nothing is in writing and can be changed with an email to the pilot group v/s Choice #2, everything is in writing and can only be changed at the negotiating table. Really seems like a no-brainier to me and I don't get why this is controversial.

The A$$ reaming your worried about is scheduled for the day the union is voted out at Options/Flex.

Kenn told a whopper on his conference call. He said the 401k was negotiated away by the union. The truth is, it was taken away unilaterally by the company while we were at-will, over a year before the CBA was ratified.

 

[JokerFuel]

Again I ask...where do the junior g

 

[JokerFuel]

Guys fall in...******************** job

 

[Club ORD FO]

Just a prediction, KR will tell the flex folks we can keep what we have if we don't vote yes for the union, or vote for the union and lose pay/benefits/schedule under the union contract.

Whats this about one crew per plane or something? is that for new airplanes coming on property or is that going to be implemented across the board?

One last question, from your point of view, was there any good news form the meeting yesterday?

 

[johnsonrod]

Just a prediction, KR will tell the flex folks we can keep what we have if we don't vote yes for the union, or vote for the union and lose pay/benefits/schedule under the union contract.

Whats this about one crew per plane or something? is that for new airplanes coming on property or is that going to be implemented across the board?

One last question, from your point of view, was there any good news form the meeting yesterday?

I imagine the Legacies being replaced by GIVSPs will be viewed positively... I can speak from personal experience on the ERJ. Other than that....

 

[Dingo221]

KR is doing a good job making us think and worried about our sad situation,
I am worried so thank you Boss

 

[Dingo221]

Also, Nobody in Cleveland could get more than 1 question to KR!
May be this means that they are worried about their job if they speak their mind.
Am I worried? yes, are you?

 

[Rupert.]

You sir are either dumb or clueless. Let me explain this to you.

In order to deviate from a contract a LOA must be signed. Any deviation without a LOA can be detrimental to the contract. If a deviation precedent has been allowed the company would continue to violate the contract and the union would have no recourse.

Had the union agreed to pay protect us like the company wanted to, an LOA would have been created. Matt and company never let it get to that. This is a fact!

 

[GooseHZ]

A contract is based on Seniority not Equality. Your fleet was retired. You where surplused and you get paid for what you can hold. You seem to care only about youself. How would the other Phenom pilots feel about you making Hawker pay doing the same job they where doing? What other parts of the contract would you like to let the company ignore?

The company had multiple options to maintain your pay if they had chosen to. They refused and that sir is a FACT.

Your singularly state of mind refuses to let you see the facts and you will forever be a hindrance to your fellow pilots future.

 

[slowtation capt]

Had the union agreed to pay protect us like the company wanted to, an LOA would have been created. Matt and company never let it get to that. This is a fact!

That's just straight up bullsh*t. Matt and company came up with 3 different LOA's for the company for those pilots to keep their pay and others benefit as well. But the company wouldn't sign off on that. Like everything they wanted certain people to have their cake and eat it too.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Kenn told a whopper on his conference call. He said the 401k was negotiated away by the union. The truth is, it was taken away unilaterally by the company while we were at-will, over a year before the CBA was ratified.

Another half truth. You may not have had a ratified CBA, but you were represented by a union. If memory serves me correctly it took almost 4 years from voting in union representation until the first CBA was ratified.

I have worked under several unions in the 121 world. They were great at promoting safety and helping with aeromedical issues. The rest of the stuff was mainly a bunch of pilots who wanted to get paid to constantly find ways to screw the company. They also dud a great job at using MY dues money to promote a lot of political agendas that I was totally against.

Unions are a business. They make money by scaring pilots into believing that the union can protect them no matter what happens. When things do happen you find out the union is willing to let its union members get fired as long as it doesn't hurt the bigger union.

The Teamsters could give 2 craps about 400 pilots in a part of an industry they don't understand or care about. Look at which pilot groups they represent. I don't see many that pilots aspire to retire from.



My hope us that after the dust settles that we (Flex and Flight Options) will be stronger financially and our careers will gave benefited. Thus doesn't have to come at the expense of the company we work for. It us actually possible for employees and the company to win.

I am sure the 5-10 super union Flight Options pilots will bash he and tell me that I just don't know what we are in for. Instead if lobbing fear grenades why don't we try to better thus whole place.

Let the bashing begin in 3.....2......1

 

[jetwash]

The letter that KR had you sign when he bought Flex that guarenteed your wages for 1 year.

What happens after 1 year to your pay?

 

[dime line]

Another half truth. You may not have had a ratified CBA, but you were represented by a union. If memory serves me correctly it took almost 4 years from voting in union representation until the first CBA was ratified.

I have worked under several unions in the 121 world. They were great at promoting safety and helping with aeromedical issues. The rest of the stuff was mainly a bunch of pilots who wanted to get paid to constantly find ways to screw the company. They also dud a great job at using MY dues money to promote a lot of political agendas that I was totally against.

Unions are a business. They make money by scaring pilots into believing that the union can protect them no matter what happens. When things do happen you find out the union is willing to let its union members get fired as long as it doesn't hurt the bigger union.

The Teamsters could give 2 craps about 400 pilots in a part of an industry they don't understand or care about. Look at which pilot groups they represent. I don't see many that pilots aspire to retire from.



My hope us that after the dust settles that we (Flex and Flight Options) will be stronger financially and our careers will gave benefited. Thus doesn't have to come at the expense of the company we work for. It us actually possible for employees and the company to win.

I am sure the 5-10 super union Flight Options pilots will bash he and tell me that I just don't know what we are in for. Instead if lobbing fear grenades why don't we try to better thus whole place.

Let the bashing begin in 3.....2......1

When are you gonna figure out your a number on an expense report, a matrix report. Ricci doesn't make one decision based on your career interests.Your career isn't Riccis problem

 

[luckydog]

As a Flex pilot I'm sure tomorrow's meeting will have a few carrots but each will come at the end of a very painful stick.

The fantasy of the pilot groups staying separate will be broken and everyone that held out hope that we were being told the truth will be disappointed.

In matters of seniority, FLOPs outnumbers Flex and I can't see the furloughed pilots voting to stay separate and remain on the street. Any integration plan will be unfavorable to those with later than a 1999/2000 hire date and fences don't last.

I miss the Canadians more and more.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Furloughed pilots don't get to vote. They are not active members. We at Flex outnumber the Flight Options group that gets to vote.

Don't let the few union leaders on here scare you. The Flight Options pilot group us very divided. If KR offers something close to our pay to get rid of 1108 I think the union would be very suprised how many if their members jump ship.

 

[jetwash]

Furloughed pilots don't get to vote. They are not active members. We at Flex outnumber the Flight Options group that gets to vote.

Don't let the few union leaders on here scare you. The Flight Options pilot group us very divided. If KR offers something close to our pay to get rid of 1108 I think the union would be very suprised how many if their members jump ship.

His offer one day can be take away the next week.

But you can trust him, he wouldn't lie and tell you one thing then a few weeks later change his mind. Or would he?