FlexJet / Flight Options / SkyJet

[GlorifiedCabbie]

V1
Its all about the $.

 

[V1 Rotate]

V1
Its all about the $.

I know that. We all know that. We all just have different perspectives on how to get the biggest piece of that pie as we can. There's any number of ways of going about it and no one knows for sure which way is best and history isn't always the most accurate indicator of things to come. I'm not anti-union but I am anti-Hoffa for my own personal reasons that transcends some silly feud between Options and Flexjet. So far, since September 5th, our pay hasn't changed and our benefits (as a whole) have gotten better. I pray that you guys aren't correct in predicting Kenn's dictatorial hammer comes slamming down on us some day. And if it does, then we'll all admit that you guys were correct and we'll adjust from there. But the preferred alternative is that one day you guys are brought up to our levels and we can all sing around the campfire. There is strength in numbers. And with Teamsters in the picture, we're all divided and unable to effectively negotiate terms with Kenn. But if we all stood together with Flexjet guys pushing for Options guys to get some pay and benefits increases, I believe there could be strength in that tactic.

All right, flame away...

 

[slowtation capt]

So far he hasn't bent us over. Not saying he won't, but so far so good.

Really, what about the "contract" that u guys had to sign. The one that basically threatens your job with every sentence that is written in it.

 

[V1 Rotate]

Really, what about the "contract" that u guys had to sign. The one that basically threatens your job with every sentence that is written in it.

When you have an industry leading contract then call us crazy. Let's not forget who has it best right now, even by your (and by "your," I mean Options) own admission.

 

[V1 Rotate]

Also, I'm not sure which contract you read??? Out of the 12 pages, there are only a few paragraphs, much less "every sentence that is written in it," that deal with why you could be terminated. Things such as showing up to work drunk, on drugs, besmirching the company in public, unethical conduct, fraud, dishonesty, repeated failure to do your job, etc. If someone worked for me that acted in these manners, I'd fire'em, too! However, I do take issue with one section that deals with what happens to your employment if you're out of work for personal or medical reasons beyond your control after 90 days. I'm not sure if that was ever properly addressed when brought up to management?

 

[DirtyBeech]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that it says the company can terminate your services for any reason at all. At will is at will so long as it's not a civil rights type of thing.

 

[slowtation capt]

When you have an industry leading contract then call us crazy. Let's not forget who has it best right now, even by your (and by "your," I mean Options) own admission.

I don't need an industry leading contract. I have a contract that makes me not an "at will" employee. A contract that can not get me fired if I say something to someone at an airport, hotel, etc... that they take the wrong way and run to management and say that I was bad mouthing the company. Being that the contract Ricci gave you guys says exactly that. What about Ricci saying they won't touch your pay for 1 year. That would really instill confidence in me as to what is going to happen to your pay in 1 year.

Here is the thing, Flops might not make the most money out there. But a contract is much more than that. I have no fear of telling them I will not be going over 14 hrs, on day 1 or even day 8 on my way home. If they can't get me home in 14 hrs, they need to change the schedule, or if I get home the next day, I get my comp time. I don't need to fear telling them that I will not fly over 10/24, that I am fatigued, etc......

And the biggest of them all. I know exactly where I stand when Ricci gets a big fat check from someone to buy the company, or he decides that he wants to stay forever in his Cabo house and never think about Options again. Because when Ricci is gone, my contract says these are my working conditions and rules. Whoever can not come in and change it on a whim, like your vacation and sick time that Ricci made into an all for one PTO.

 

[dime line]

Actually look what happened to our head cheerleader of HR (Hr Vice President) at Options, (Anguish wife )she has been here so long and was thought to be untouchable, apparently she said something Ricci didn't like and she now is out of a job. Just like that gone!

But hey you Flex pilots know better about Ricci, he hasn't messed with you yet..right?

Oh yea, FLOPS tracks (FLOPS lingo...Matrix) how many maintenance write ups a pilot makes.

 

[V1 Rotate]

I don't need an industry leading contract. I have a contract that makes me not an "at will" employee. A contract that can not get me fired if I say something to someone at an airport, hotel, etc... that they take the wrong way and run to management and say that I was bad mouthing the company. Being that the contract Ricci gave you guys says exactly that. What about Ricci saying they won't touch your pay for 1 year. That would really instill confidence in me as to what is going to happen to your pay in 1 year.

Here is the thing, Flops might not make the most money out there. But a contract is much more than that. I have no fear of telling them I will not be going over 14 hrs, on day 1 or even day 8 on my way home. If they can't get me home in 14 hrs, they need to change the schedule, or if I get home the next day, I get my comp time. I don't need to fear telling them that I will not fly over 10/24, that I am fatigued, etc......

And the biggest of them all. I know exactly where I stand when Ricci gets a big fat check from someone to buy the company, or he decides that he wants to stay forever in his Cabo house and never think about Options again. Because when Ricci is gone, my contract says these are my working conditions and rules. Whoever can not come in and change it on a whim, like your vacation and sick time that Ricci made into an all for one PTO.

Being an at-will employee isn't the worst thing in the world. I've been treated better in this career as an at-will employee than I ever was at my two ALPA airlines. I'm not toting water for Kenn by any means, but having a union contract between he and us sure doesn't look too appetizing when you read the comments on here. That being said, if he screws us, I'll be right there to hold him accountable with whatever pressure we can bring.

We have many of the same provisions as well, including go-home day rules. And have since many years ago. They're not the greatest rules in the world, but no one is ever held in contempt for holding scheduling to them. And if circumstances prevent certain rules from being followed, such as getting home on time on the last day, then we are compensated for that as well. No questions asked. In the number of years that I've been here, you wouldn't believe how hard people have had to try and get fired from this place. In some guys' cases, we all finally breathed a sigh of relief when they finally couldn't justify giving them more chances.

Under Bombardier, we obviously had no contract, either. Someone, Kenn, came in and bought us. Fortunately, rumor has it anyway, our leadership stood up for us played a role in the pay and benefits that we were able to retain. Our vacation and sick time policies are actually for the better, almost, except that we did lose three days. But the system is better than what we had previously.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that it says the company can terminate your services for any reason at all. At will is at will so long as it's not a civil rights type of thing.

Not trying to be a wise guy here, but do you even have a copy of the Agreement? No where in there does it say that they can just fire you. The only "without cause" clause is in case of layoffs. Other than that, it's pretty cut and dry from my perspective.

 

[GooseHZ]

V1
Your an at will employee. Simple as that...your gone for any reason. Feel free to take your 2 page contract to court and see where that gets you.

That stove is hot don't touch it son......

 

[V1 Rotate]

V1
Your an at will employee. Simple as that...your gone for any reason. Feel free to take your 2 page contract to court and see where that gets you.

That stove is hot don't touch it son......

First, don't call me "son." I'm not making this personal and neither should you.

Which part of "you have to try and get fired from here" of my previous post wasn't clear? As far as my two page contract goes, which is actually 12 (but I get how you were trying to demean it), it's probably worth about as much as your 100 page (or however many it is) contract is...which is not even the paper it's written on, depending on the judge. Remember all the Majors' and Regionals' contracts after 9/11? I do. I was there. I'm not suggesting that at-will should be the only way but right now it seems to be the best course for us in these times. Time will tell and I'm willing to admit that you could be right. But so could we.

 

[DirtyBeech]

Not trying to be a wise guy here, but do you even have a copy of the Agreement? No where in there does it say that they can just fire you. The only "without cause" clause is in case of layoffs. Other than that, it's pretty cut and dry from my perspective.

Secion 5 (c) on page 7 talks about termination without cause. It says that it may include a RIF, but no where does it say that it's limited to one.

That's pretty cut and dry to me as well.

Flex has been generally fair, and sometimes excessively fair, before firing our problem children in the past. That was under BBA's watch. This is a different animal. I don't know how anyone can watch the gutting of our support staff at the Waterview, see our very successful business model tossed aside, watch a cost ineffective idea like crew to metal being reimplemented, see our curious fleet plan or watch the way our "large cabin program" was started and think that the status quo means anything.

I may be wrong. Time will tell. But I'm not going to be blindsided just because the new head man talks a good game. FG talked a good game too before being tossed on his rumored to be embezzling a** by Pierre. Not again

Too many rumblings of the very volatile nature of KR's decision making or the need for our mgt. to tell him that his plans make poor to no financial sense for my liking.

 

[GooseHZ]

V1

I was not referring to you as "son". It was an analogy of a premises . My apologies if it offended you. Your 12 page document is worth nothing....I will take my 300 page Legally binding contract over that any day. And over a beer or 3 I would love to discuss this pressing issue with you. I may never change your opinion and you may never change mine...but I hope as professional pilots we can at least discuss a issue without a unproductive outcome.

Agian I apologize for any offense.

 

[gret]

What a bunch of candy pants wimps. Oh heaven forbid that a guy should run his business as he see fits..it is his money. Kenn is on duty more than any of you and is probably the next best thing for you other than your mother...he signs the checks that you get every couple of weeks...can you or your mother do that?

Each and every one of you are the CEO of your respective careers. If you're worried about your employer, go someplace else..most likely you're not man enough. You want your spouse to be proud of you..but yet you don't have the nuts to take charge of your own life...disgraceful. Real men don't want to be in the same room with you.

Some of you wanted a union and you got it...what a great job you did and you even manged to screw up the lives of your co-workers who weren't interested.. The union failed and now you want to blame your employer for your union's dumbness....clowns and you voted for them.

The world does not owe you a living and lifestyle...one has to find this themselves.

 

[GooseHZ]

Less beer more productive thinking.....deep breath...exhale....

 

[slowtation capt]

rumor has it anyway, our leadership stood up for us played a role in the pay and benefits that we were able to retain.

Bingo, with the officially announced plan to merge, as everyone didn't know that's what he wanted to do. How long do you expect your management to be in place? Not very long, get used to hearing from Joe Salata, John Kalic, Tim Montie, Bob Reinhold, and the most often used phrase in the company, "You will need to talk to a PSM about that", which will be someone sitting in a not so comfy chair in a room with a big screen that doesn't show the big picture, because nobody knows what the big picture is, because nobody has the picture, trying to tell you to do something that you shouldn't be doing, because to them it doesn't matter. You will accomplish their matrix, and they are going home in 15 minutes, so what happens after, well they just don't care, they are home.

 

[doh]

PSM? Don't leave us hanging with your F'ed up lingo.

 

[doh]

What a bunch of candy pants wimps. Oh heaven forbid that a guy should run his business as he see fits..it is his money. Kenn is on duty more than any of you and is probably the next best thing for you other than your mother...he signs the checks that you get every couple of weeks...can you or your mother do that?

Each and every one of you are the CEO of your respective careers. If you're worried about your employer, go someplace else..most likely you're not man enough. You want your spouse to be proud of you..but yet you don't have the nuts to take charge of your own life...disgraceful. Real men don't want to be in the same room with you.

Some of you wanted a union and you got it...what a great job you did and you even manged to screw up the lives of your co-workers who weren't interested.. The union failed and now you want to blame your employer for your union's dumbness....clowns and you voted for them.

The world does not owe you a living and lifestyle...one has to find this themselves.

This is why you shouldn't drink and post. You make no sense.

 

[hopalong]

What a bunch of candy pants wimps. Oh heaven forbid that a guy should run his business as he see fits..it is his money. Kenn is on duty more than any of you and is probably the next best thing for you other than your mother...he signs the checks that you get every couple of weeks...can you or your mother do that?

Each and every one of you are the CEO of your respective careers. If you're worried about your employer, go someplace else..most likely you're not man enough. You want your spouse to be proud of you..but yet you don't have the nuts to take charge of your own life...disgraceful. Real men don't want to be in the same room with you.

Some of you wanted a union and you got it...what a great job you did and you even manged to screw up the lives of your co-workers who weren't interested.. The union failed and now you want to blame your employer for your union's dumbness....clowns and you voted for them.

The world does not owe you a living and lifestyle...one has to find this themselves.

Gret,

You continually hijack threads and still do not tell us your profession. What is it that you do for a living? My guess is that you live in your mommy's basement and drink all day trolling airlinepilotcentral. Real men don't want to be in the same thread, let alone room with you, you whack job.

 

[DirtyBeech]

It actually isn't KR's money. He's not the main investor. I stopped reading that crap after that ill informed statement.

 

[jetwash]

PSM? Don't leave us hanging with your F'ed up lingo.

PSM = pilot support manager

When in fact he is a management support pilot.
When you tell a dispatcher something that they don't understand they pass you on to the PSM so that you can tell him then he will translate it into simple terms for the dispatchers.

 

[shanes123]

Psm is a ass kisser, pilot pusher, company man that makes 120k plus to force pilots out on the line to push the envelope. There basically there to intimidate you with suttle threats. If they can't talk (force) you into doing something wrong. Then you get turned over to kalic, montie, or reinhold that will make the threat a little more blunt. But as soon as you say you are gonna speak to your union rep they have a tendency to back off. But not always. Why you think it's against company policy for a pilot to tape record a phone call with the company? They can threaten you and say they never said it. If you tape them you get fired for violating company policy. It's a great company to work for. Welcome flex the fun hasn't even started yet

 

[shanes123]

How many hours a day, week, month does a flex pilot average? Is 40-60 a week common? How many 10/24 warnings a week ? How many duty hours a day average? How many min rest nites in a tour? Very serious. Appreciate if someone could answer this accurately.

 

[shanes123]

Originally Posted by gret
What a bunch of candy pants wimps. Oh heaven forbid that a guy should run his business as he see fits..it is his money. Kenn is on duty more than any of you and is probably the next best thing for you other than your mother...he signs the checks that you get every couple of weeks...can you or your mother do that?

Each and every one of you are the CEO of your respective careers. If you're worried about your employer, go someplace else..most likely you're not man enough. You want your spouse to be proud of you..but yet you don't have the nuts to take charge of your own life...disgraceful. Real men don't want to be in the same room with you.

Some of you wanted a union and you got it...what a great job you did and you even manged to screw up the lives of your co-workers who weren't interested.. The union failed and now you want to blame your employer for your union's dumbness....clowns and you voted for them.

The world does not owe you a living and lifestyle...one has to find this themselves.

Gret

Your the candy pants wimp. You are a little management stooge. Thinking screwing over a fellow pilot is your ticket to the top. And it is in KR world. But most people have more self respect to lower themselves to that. Aren't your knees sore from running behind KR with your nose up his ass?

 

[warlord19]

It"s these last 3 statements by this juvenile Shanes123 and the other similar statements(BS) that leaves me totally unsympathetic to the union drive. Think I'll stick with my VW bro's down in Tennessee and not make the Faustian bargain of bringing in a union. If your "uncle" is the devil ya"ll (that's you all for you union goobers) say he is and attempts to violate our agreement, he will have a union. And I'm betting that won't happen.
Cheers,
WL

 

[V1 Rotate]

How many hours a day, week, month does a flex pilot average? Is 40-60 a week common? How many 10/24 warnings a week ? How many duty hours a day average? How many min rest nites in a tour? Very serious. Appreciate if someone could answer this accurately.

I don't have the official numbers but Flex would, and has, produced them in the past. Lately, I'd say the average is somewhere around 9-10 hours per day with a few 12-14 hour days sprinkled in there. There's some min rest going on more than normal due to the busyness and mostly understaffed fleets.

 

[V1 Rotate]

V1

I was not referring to you as "son". It was an analogy of a premises . My apologies if it offended you. Your 12 page document is worth nothing....I will take my 300 page Legally binding contract over that any day. And over a beer or 3 I would love to discuss this pressing issue with you. I may never change your opinion and you may never change mine...but I hope as professional pilots we can at least discuss a issue without a unproductive outcome.

Agian I apologize for any offense.

I wasn't really offended but apology accepted nonetheless. I'm sure we'll never convince each other on all the points we try to make but the back and forth is good for us and those reading it. I've gone back and forth on where I stand on this issue and I don't take it lightly. Just the way I didn't take my stance lightly when I was on the other side in year's past. I ultimately think we'll all be on the same list one day whether we like it not so having the discussion now is beneficial, regardless of what happen and who agrees with who.

 

[993_Pilot]

It"s these last 3 statements by this juvenile Shanes123 and the other similar statements(BS) that leaves me totally unsympathetic to the union drive. Think I'll stick with my VW bro's down in Tennessee and not make the Faustian bargain of bringing in a union. If your "uncle" is the devil ya"ll (that's you all for you union goobers) say he is and attempts to violate our agreement, he will have a union. And I'm betting that won't happen.
Cheers,
WL

Take Shanes123 with a grain of salt, he is a bitter ex-employee with an axe to grind and does not well represent the average union supporter at Flops. Most of us touting the benefits of having a union are not doing so because a union is the perfect answer to everything. We tout the benefits, because we have lived under this management without those benefits, and we know which way is better. So, you can make your bet, but history has already proved you wrong, and most likely will again. If you turn out to be right, I am sure you will look great with a 5th stripe on your sleeve... just be prepared for 14+ hour days in an airplane with squawks that aren't yet on paper.

 

[shanes123]

Employees don't come to a job bitter. The company dictates if they develop a good attitude or bad. (For the most part) I am a product of FLOPS management. And bitter is a understatement .

 

[Ludicrous Speed]

Warlord19 - It’s these last 3 statements by this juvenile Shanes123 and the other similar statements (BS) that leaves me totally unsympathetic to the union drive.

That’s a copout. You’re basing your decisions upon anonymous, emotional, juvenile posts? Great. As a union goober/stomper/thug, I try to use rational, logical, & calm reasoning, leaving emotion and sympathy out of the equation. The union is a business decision giving me a defined set of work rules, a modicum of security, inexpensive insurance, a “say” at the table, & the potential to improve our/my position.

PSM comment: While there are a couple pilot support managers that are more “thug-gish” than any union thug, there are some that act professionally & I listen to & evaluate what they say. Don’t think its right to throw an entire group under the bus.