FedEx at Air Inc.

[mar]

A complete loss of perspective

I certainly don’t doubt you run into an occasional ex-military @sshole. Every demographic has its 1% share of idiots. The guy in your example though……..What do you want him to do when you tell him you used to fly a DC6 in Alaska? Offer to suck your d!ck?

See?

It's this lack of perspective that bothers me.

And contrary to what Satpak77 thinks, this isn't your "typical" military vs. civilian thread.

I'm not suggesting that one is better than the other.

And contrary to what Mr. AdlerDriver thinks, I do, in fact, *appreciate* very much what it takes become a military pilot.

I'm sorry that I couldn't conjure a more compelling example for you. It was really a composite as I was trying to be brief and didn't want to bore you with a description of every flight deck conversation I've had.

This thread really has less to do with how I'm regarded at work than how you (in the general sense) would be naive to deny that a bias exists.

There *is* a bias. And I think the bias exists because military pilots tend to stick together. And that's not a criticism. But if you're fresh out of the military and you've had one civilian job, then, you know, where's your perspective? Where's your point of reference? Where's your measuring stick?

That's all I was trying to say.

By the way, when you check in with tower, do you still report "wheels down"?

 

[sandman2122]

B757 driver,

Why don't you clue us in on who your employer is. Or explain why you don't want to.

Just curious how your schedule, benefits, retirement and W2 compares.

BTW, I DID work my my tail off the "old fashioned way" and earned my concrete job, even with internal recommendations. You have NO idea what you're talking about.

 

[FNG_that's me]

If there is such a bias, and always has been, why didn't you just join the military, fly fighters and then get out and just walk into your dream job? You know, just do it the 'easy' way...

 

[FNG_that's me]

I hope all the military guys recognize the sarcasm in the previous post...sorry if it wasn't obvious

 

[mar]

Great question!

If there is such a bias, and always has been, why didn't you just join the military, fly fighters and then get out and just walk into your dream job? You know, just do it the 'easy' way...

I look really dumb in Aviator sunglasses.

 

[satpak77]

negative Maverick the pattern is full

 

[satpak77]

I'll sum it up like this: I don't begrudge military pilots *anything*. It's hard work, it takes skill, and good for them.

But some of the guys I've been working with just don't see the flip side to that coin.

Not only does it take hard work, to include a rigorous selection process, to include millions of dollars of Uncle Sam's best training (and skill), it requires the committment to die for your country (any RJ pilots have that commitment?), and to be on TDY for months to years away from family. That means being on a ship when junior is born, and being in a war when junior's sister is born. That means being shot at (see RJ comment above), and possibly NOT going home, except in a body bag. It means moving and re-locating multiple times, uprooting family. It means flying over the ocean to lovely spots such as Kabul, at night, for hours on end (121 duty times? you kidding me?), then at the end of the flight, you must deliver ordance on the target (god forbid we hit Bin Ladens civilian grandmas house). After delivering said ordance, you must refuel and then fly another few hours to base.

But, I forgot (a lot of us have forgotten) the above facts. I mean, being a military pilot is "the easy route" and is not "paying your dues"

And we wonder why FDX or DAL/etc/etc like the military aviator. I hope you people are not that dumb, it should be obvious.

Couple the natural network of military pilots that exists, Joe from the Squadron is now at FDX and Larry was in Germany with him is applying, etc, etc, and this is more reason that military pilots get jobs. Furthermore, military officers, in the course of their careers, give presentations before senior officers, the press, etc, and appear before various panels. So when they walk into airline interviews, it is not earth-shattering statistic that they do well.

Guys, this is not hard to understand. It is what it is.

I post this as a civilian, non-military pilot, who has friends from both CIV and MIL backgrounds.

While I am on my soapbox, a big THANKS to the men and women of the US Military who fight to keep America safe.

 

[mar]

Excellent!

<breaks out my flag and starts waving it around>

Awesome post!

Is all that true? I had no idea!!!

You're right! Airline hiring is about *so* much more than just flying airplanes from Point A to Point B.

I feel like such a loser for having been continually employed for the last 15 years and being a taxpayer. I could've been so much more.

I am an Army of just one.

 

[satpak77]

<breaks out my flag and starts waving it around>

Awesome post!

Is all that true? I had no idea!!!

You're right! Airline hiring is about *so* much more than just flying airplanes from Point A to Point B.

I feel like such a loser for having been continually employed for the last 15 years and being a taxpayer. I could've been so much more.

I am an Army of just one.

Yeah like not a smart azz

 

[AdlerDriver]

See?

It's this lack of perspective that bothers me.

And contrary to what Satpak77 thinks, this isn't your "typical" military vs. civilian thread.

I'm not suggesting that one is better than the other.

And contrary to what Mr. AdlerDriver thinks, I do, in fact, *appreciate* very much what it takes become a military pilot.

I'm sorry that I couldn't conjure a more compelling example for you. It was really a composite as I was trying to be brief and didn't want to bore you with a description of every flight deck conversation I've had.

This thread really has less to do with how I'm regarded at work than how you (in the general sense) would be naive to deny that a bias exists.

There *is* a bias. And I think the bias exists because military pilots tend to stick together. And that's not a criticism. But if you're fresh out of the military and you've had one civilian job, then, you know, where's your perspective? Where's your point of reference? Where's your measuring stick?

That's all I was trying to say.

By the way, when you check in with tower, do you still report "wheels down"?

Maybe it would help if you explained exactly what you think this “bias” is and who has it and how do they show it – specifically.

What is my “lack of perspective”? The joke about sucking your d!ck? You don’t know squat about my perspective. Okay, I’ll ask it without the joke…. What is the “approved” response when you tell someone you used to fly DC-6s in Alaska? How should I respond without offending you if I ever meet you and ask you about your flying experience? Maybe I need to start paying more attention to the response pilots give me when they ask about my background. Up to now I really didn’t give a sh!t what they said.

I happen to be genuinely interested in the flying experiences of the pilots I work with (military and civilian). I make an effort to find out the details of their background because it interests me. I think I have a pretty good understanding of the more common routes a civilian takes to get to their dream job. That said, I don’t really know what it’s like to fly 16 legs in a day across the northern Midwest like my crashpad roommate used to do. Do I “appreciate” it? Who knows. I know it sound like it would be a b!tch – but I really don’t know squat about it. On the other side, he (and you) don’t really know what it’s like to go through USAF pilot training or fly an F-15. So, to just arbitrarily state that you “appreciate” what it takes to become and succeed as a military pilot is just as much BS as me saying the same thing about the various civilian routes.

Maybe you can also explain what the pilot “fresh out of the military” would use his “measuring stick”, “point of reference” and “perspective” for if he had it?

BTW, I’ve never called “wheels down” once. I’ve called “gear down” at least 2500 times for the same reasons we both comply with FARs now in our job.

 

[mar]

It's like the old cliche'

That said, I don’t really know what it’s like to fly 16 legs in a day across the northern Midwest like my crashpad roommate used to do. Do I “appreciate” it? Who knows. I know it sound like it would be a b!tch – but I really don’t know squat about it.

"Who knows?"

*You* know. You know whether or not it means anything to you.

But this discussion is gonna end up like the old cliche': If I have to explain it then you wouldn't understand.

In other words, if you can't discern the bias all by yourself, especially after four pages of this thread then you're really quite oblivious to it.

As for your perspective, let me put it like this: Throughout this thread I've tried to be diplomatic--even empathetic.

I think diplomacy comes with perspective (and maybe experience). If I need to explain to you how perspective is important in evaluating our relationships with others (specifically, in this case, our co-workers) then what's the point of continuing the discussion?

 

[sandman2122]

And all this debate changes what?

Not a darn thing.

Enjoy your weekend.

 

[satpak77]

Post 1 of this thread

Anyone talk to the FedEx recruiter last weekend in Atlanta at the Air, Inc. conference? Just wondering if anything good would have come of attending?

talk about getting off topic

 

[AdlerDriver]

Not the first thread drift - and won't be the last.

"Who knows?"

*You* know. You know whether or not it means anything to you.

But this discussion is gonna end up like the old cliche': If I have to explain it then you wouldn't understand.

In other words, if you can't discern the bias all by yourself, especially after four pages of this thread then you're really quite oblivious to it.

As for your perspective, let me put it like this: Throughout this thread I've tried to be diplomatic--even empathetic.

I think diplomacy comes with perspective (and maybe experience). If I need to explain to you how perspective is important in evaluating our relationships with others (specifically, in this case, our co-workers) then what's the point of continuing the discussion?

You don’t need to explain anything to me. I get it. It’s just difficult to address broad topics you throw out like a “military bias” without YOUR specific issue. I’m not oblivious to the bias toward a military pilot. Without the benefit of personally evaluating a pilot’s skill, I’ll pick a military pilot every time. Only because he/she is a known quantity with a baseline level of training that I can verify more easily than a civilian. Fortunately, most airlines dig a little deeper and have established hiring methods that allow them to hire a nice mix of pilots (obviously a better way to go).

So, it sounds like you want people to use their “perspective” and “measuring stick” to be more diplomatic when they meet you. Once again, you don’t need to explain perspective to me. My question was aimed at understanding yours. Since you won’t allow me to, I’ll just say that I take issue with your attitude about military pilots “fresh out” on their first civilian job. I happen to be on my third and have been out for quite a while. I don’t think you can make such a broad statement about military pilots. Just because he’s fresh out of the military on his first civilian job, you assume he has no perspective, point of reference or measuring stick. That’s quite an assumption. I’ve flown with pilots like that, but they’re not all like that. On the other hand, just because a pilot came up through a civilian route doesn’t necessarily mean he has the benefit of some magical perspective. A mature, experienced pilot (regardless of background) should be a positive influence in an airline cockpit. If he is not, it’s probably a personality issue – not a result of where he got his training.

You obviously bring some issues of your own to the cockpit as evidenced by your first example with the DC-6 story. You seem overly sensitive and probably expect to be insulted when you meet a military pilot, so you are. You bring your own bias to the table, assume one exists on the part of the other pilot and create a nice little conflict for yourself. Bottom line: You’re flying a 747 – so have a little confidence in yourself and quit worrying about whether your co-workers “appreciate” how you got there.

 

[mar]

My specific issue

As I said before, this thread isn't about how I'm treated on the flight deck.

This thread is about a certain level of bias and now with your latest post even condescension by military pilots towards civilian pilots.

If I, in fact, have a bias it's only been re-enforced by my personal experiences.

And I suppose you could make the same point--and essentially did.

I should have more confidence? Puh-LEEZE! I can forgive this one because we've never flown together...I'm borderline cocky. The "Five Hazardous Attitudes....I invented four of them...

Enjoy your career. You earned it.