FedEx at Air Inc.

[satpak77]

this is turning into a CIV versus MIL thread, I think we have enough of them on this forum already

"Joey has 4000 TT and 2000 in a SAAB, and Billy has 2000 TT, all in non-CRM crew F-16 jets"

who gets the job?

etc etc

I am sure Kit Darby has all the answers

 

[AdlerDriver]

Excellent post, mar!

You hit the nail on the head here. This attitude is certainly prevalent and some, but not all ,military guys have limited knowledge when it comes to the flip side. I'm also ex-military so I know it from BOTH sides.
Adler - you want a compelling example? I'll give you one, since you asked.
How about the Capt who blew four tires on a MLW 747 because he "forgot" to flare before landing in DXB and then blamed it on the brakes! No, he was not civilian. We all make mistakes and there are good apples as well as bad. You should know that.
People should respect each other as professionals, no matter what their backgrounds.
Since I am ex-military, I do appreciate what those guys have gone through, but they chose to leave and enter the civilian world which is NOT an extension of the military. When in Rome..... Next question?
And yes, I do apprciate what military aviators go through. Next question?

757driver,
Have you been drinking?? :laugh:
Most of your post is not even related to what we were discussing. Try to stay on point.
You may be ex-military – but your profile says “military non-aviator”. So YOU don’t know it from BOTH sides either. Being former military in itself doesn’t qualify you to talk about being a military PILOT. I don’t claim to know anything about driving a tank just because I was a military pilot. I would say that for every military pilot with “limited knowledge” of the “flip side”, there’s an equal number of civilian pilots ignorant of military aviation. Who cares.

Your compelling example…. WTF does that have to do with the discussion at hand?? Nothing. Just an obvious attempt to insert your agenda into this discussion. Some ex-military pilot porks away a landing – so what. That doesn't have anything to do with a pilot not “appreciating” the background of another. We weren’t talking about making mistakes. The fact that a military pilot chose to leave, the civilian world not being an extension of the military and “when in Rome”. Dude, WTF are you talking about. None of that was even talked about and isn’t germane to our discussion.

I think it’s safe to say, when pilots on this board say they’re “ex-military”, they mean they actually earned military wings and flew military aircraft. If you want to use YOUR ex-military status to attempt to bolster some opinion you throw out, make sure you acknowledge the fact that you haven’t. It also wouldn't hurt to have the opinion you offer have something to do with what's being talked about too.

 

[satpak77]

Jimmy flies G-4's but its all part 91, will that hurt him? He does have lots of international time.

Jimmy's buddy, Trevor, flies RJs, another EFIS jet, all part 121, but all domestic, no international time.

Who does _______ (insert major airline) call for the interview?

etc etc ad nauseum

 

[TheBaron]

b757driver...

You are correct in stating that I don't know you; I am forced to judge you by what you post.

b757driver quote...
It's been quite clear for some time that a whole community of potential employees are NOT being given an EQUAL opportunity and are being discriminated against for not having "enough buds" to recommend them. This remains the SOLE criteria for hiring, not experience, qualifications, nor individual merit or achievement.

I thought I pointed out that this is in fact not the case. Maybe you can read my post again more carefully.

b757driver quote...
Getting a ground job @ Fedex is NOT a way in. That's fact.

Funny...my sponsor (my only "bud recommendation") worked in operations at FedEx for 6 years and then decided to become a pilot. He went to school and worked his way up through the civilian ranks. His "ground job" there sure seemed to work out well for him.

b757driver quote...
Now I KNOW you have no idea what you are talking about and you CERTAINLY know nothing about me.

You KNOW that I don't know what I'm talking about... funny, I'm the one that went through the whole interview process and got the job, maybe I do know something that you don't.

b757driver quote...
FYI, I AM ex-military but that doesn't mean I have to follow the herd and that I can't speak for myself. Thank you for confirming what I already suspected!!!

What did you already suspect?
That I spent 13 years enlisted in the Marine Corps and got out to follow my dream. Or maybe you suspected that I have been a check airman on three different airplanes, for three different FSDO's. Maybe that I had been a Chief Pilot for two air carriers as well as a Director of Operations. Or maybe, just maybe, you don't know what YOU are talking about.

My entire point is that regardless of all the negative impressions people have about getting a chance at FedEx, there are plenty of people here that have done what you seem to think is impossible.

For all those non-connected civilians (like me) that dream of flying at FedEx,
don't give up.

 

[b757driver]

how about concentrating on the product you are trying to sell: YOURSELF.

don't worry about discrimination, quotas, rumors, etc. you can always find a hurdle if you want to. but, that's just a reason to be lazy in your career pursuit.

i've swallowed my pride a fair amount and it has resulted in some dreams coming true.

knock the chip off, check the ego, swallow the pride. focus all of that wasted energy on networking, resume presentation, interview preparation and make yourself a desirable candidate for the position.

it does take work and effort for most of us to get the call. believe me, it is worth all the effort.

best of luck

Been there, done that.......didn't work.

So....I swallowed my pride and did something totally different with my energy which required NO games, NO application fees, NO cookies, NO collecting resumes for possible hiring and NO years waiting for the "dream" job - I went overseas and pretty much wrote my own check. Not only that, but they paid for the type rating to boot!

The best part? The fact that I did not have to rely on others to get me an "in" and it was soley down to me whether I made the cut or not. I was able to control my own destiny. In fact, I did know a couple of people there already but it was neither a requirement nor necessary. I just did it the plain old-fashioned way, with hard work and an application for a concrete job.

I'll tell you, it was so refreshing being offered a position without playing silly games. They had a need for professional crews with experience, I had a need to change my circumstances and clearly had what they were looking for. Two parties coming together and able to reach a mutually beneficial result. Simple, nothing complicated nor convoluted.
I am more than happy with my lot and it would take something pretty phenonmenal to get me to take a similar position back home. For starters, I would have to take an immediate 50% salary cut! No thanks. I've already been approached by two companies back home that I turned down. It certainly feels very different when the boot is on the other foot.

Also, don't forget, not many people have the same circumstances. So while those that advocate persistence, realize that not everyone can afford the luxury of waiting years, sometimes many years. If a job is advertised and resumes are solicited, it is natural to assume that the need is for NOW, not in 10 years' time. If it is meant for future hiring then the ad should clearly state so. In some countries that would come under the Trades Description Act and/or truth in advertising.

Best of luck to everyone. If you want and are prepared to play games for sometimes several years, go ahead. If not, and you want a totally different experience where individual merit and real equal opportunity are valued, then you need to look at more innovating companies. Courses for horses, I guess.

 

[mar]

A complete loss of perspective

I certainly don’t doubt you run into an occasional ex-military @sshole. Every demographic has its 1% share of idiots. The guy in your example though……..What do you want him to do when you tell him you used to fly a DC6 in Alaska? Offer to suck your d!ck?

See?

It's this lack of perspective that bothers me.

And contrary to what Satpak77 thinks, this isn't your "typical" military vs. civilian thread.

I'm not suggesting that one is better than the other.

And contrary to what Mr. AdlerDriver thinks, I do, in fact, *appreciate* very much what it takes become a military pilot.

I'm sorry that I couldn't conjure a more compelling example for you. It was really a composite as I was trying to be brief and didn't want to bore you with a description of every flight deck conversation I've had.

This thread really has less to do with how I'm regarded at work than how you (in the general sense) would be naive to deny that a bias exists.

There *is* a bias. And I think the bias exists because military pilots tend to stick together. And that's not a criticism. But if you're fresh out of the military and you've had one civilian job, then, you know, where's your perspective? Where's your point of reference? Where's your measuring stick?

That's all I was trying to say.

By the way, when you check in with tower, do you still report "wheels down"?

 

[sandman2122]

B757 driver,

Why don't you clue us in on who your employer is. Or explain why you don't want to.

Just curious how your schedule, benefits, retirement and W2 compares.

BTW, I DID work my my tail off the "old fashioned way" and earned my concrete job, even with internal recommendations. You have NO idea what you're talking about.

 

[FNG_that's me]

If there is such a bias, and always has been, why didn't you just join the military, fly fighters and then get out and just walk into your dream job? You know, just do it the 'easy' way...

 

[FNG_that's me]

I hope all the military guys recognize the sarcasm in the previous post...sorry if it wasn't obvious

 

[mar]

Great question!

If there is such a bias, and always has been, why didn't you just join the military, fly fighters and then get out and just walk into your dream job? You know, just do it the 'easy' way...

I look really dumb in Aviator sunglasses.

 

[satpak77]

negative Maverick the pattern is full

 

[satpak77]

I'll sum it up like this: I don't begrudge military pilots *anything*. It's hard work, it takes skill, and good for them.

But some of the guys I've been working with just don't see the flip side to that coin.

Not only does it take hard work, to include a rigorous selection process, to include millions of dollars of Uncle Sam's best training (and skill), it requires the committment to die for your country (any RJ pilots have that commitment?), and to be on TDY for months to years away from family. That means being on a ship when junior is born, and being in a war when junior's sister is born. That means being shot at (see RJ comment above), and possibly NOT going home, except in a body bag. It means moving and re-locating multiple times, uprooting family. It means flying over the ocean to lovely spots such as Kabul, at night, for hours on end (121 duty times? you kidding me?), then at the end of the flight, you must deliver ordance on the target (god forbid we hit Bin Ladens civilian grandmas house). After delivering said ordance, you must refuel and then fly another few hours to base.

But, I forgot (a lot of us have forgotten) the above facts. I mean, being a military pilot is "the easy route" and is not "paying your dues"

And we wonder why FDX or DAL/etc/etc like the military aviator. I hope you people are not that dumb, it should be obvious.

Couple the natural network of military pilots that exists, Joe from the Squadron is now at FDX and Larry was in Germany with him is applying, etc, etc, and this is more reason that military pilots get jobs. Furthermore, military officers, in the course of their careers, give presentations before senior officers, the press, etc, and appear before various panels. So when they walk into airline interviews, it is not earth-shattering statistic that they do well.

Guys, this is not hard to understand. It is what it is.

I post this as a civilian, non-military pilot, who has friends from both CIV and MIL backgrounds.

While I am on my soapbox, a big THANKS to the men and women of the US Military who fight to keep America safe.

 

[mar]

Excellent!

<breaks out my flag and starts waving it around>

Awesome post!

Is all that true? I had no idea!!!

You're right! Airline hiring is about *so* much more than just flying airplanes from Point A to Point B.

I feel like such a loser for having been continually employed for the last 15 years and being a taxpayer. I could've been so much more.

I am an Army of just one.

 

[satpak77]

<breaks out my flag and starts waving it around>

Awesome post!

Is all that true? I had no idea!!!

You're right! Airline hiring is about *so* much more than just flying airplanes from Point A to Point B.

I feel like such a loser for having been continually employed for the last 15 years and being a taxpayer. I could've been so much more.

I am an Army of just one.

Yeah like not a smart azz

 

[AdlerDriver]

See?

It's this lack of perspective that bothers me.

And contrary to what Satpak77 thinks, this isn't your "typical" military vs. civilian thread.

I'm not suggesting that one is better than the other.

And contrary to what Mr. AdlerDriver thinks, I do, in fact, *appreciate* very much what it takes become a military pilot.

I'm sorry that I couldn't conjure a more compelling example for you. It was really a composite as I was trying to be brief and didn't want to bore you with a description of every flight deck conversation I've had.

This thread really has less to do with how I'm regarded at work than how you (in the general sense) would be naive to deny that a bias exists.

There *is* a bias. And I think the bias exists because military pilots tend to stick together. And that's not a criticism. But if you're fresh out of the military and you've had one civilian job, then, you know, where's your perspective? Where's your point of reference? Where's your measuring stick?

That's all I was trying to say.

By the way, when you check in with tower, do you still report "wheels down"?

Maybe it would help if you explained exactly what you think this “bias” is and who has it and how do they show it – specifically.

What is my “lack of perspective”? The joke about sucking your d!ck? You don’t know squat about my perspective. Okay, I’ll ask it without the joke…. What is the “approved” response when you tell someone you used to fly DC-6s in Alaska? How should I respond without offending you if I ever meet you and ask you about your flying experience? Maybe I need to start paying more attention to the response pilots give me when they ask about my background. Up to now I really didn’t give a sh!t what they said.

I happen to be genuinely interested in the flying experiences of the pilots I work with (military and civilian). I make an effort to find out the details of their background because it interests me. I think I have a pretty good understanding of the more common routes a civilian takes to get to their dream job. That said, I don’t really know what it’s like to fly 16 legs in a day across the northern Midwest like my crashpad roommate used to do. Do I “appreciate” it? Who knows. I know it sound like it would be a b!tch – but I really don’t know squat about it. On the other side, he (and you) don’t really know what it’s like to go through USAF pilot training or fly an F-15. So, to just arbitrarily state that you “appreciate” what it takes to become and succeed as a military pilot is just as much BS as me saying the same thing about the various civilian routes.

Maybe you can also explain what the pilot “fresh out of the military” would use his “measuring stick”, “point of reference” and “perspective” for if he had it?

BTW, I’ve never called “wheels down” once. I’ve called “gear down” at least 2500 times for the same reasons we both comply with FARs now in our job.

 

[mar]

It's like the old cliche'

That said, I don’t really know what it’s like to fly 16 legs in a day across the northern Midwest like my crashpad roommate used to do. Do I “appreciate” it? Who knows. I know it sound like it would be a b!tch – but I really don’t know squat about it.

"Who knows?"

*You* know. You know whether or not it means anything to you.

But this discussion is gonna end up like the old cliche': If I have to explain it then you wouldn't understand.

In other words, if you can't discern the bias all by yourself, especially after four pages of this thread then you're really quite oblivious to it.

As for your perspective, let me put it like this: Throughout this thread I've tried to be diplomatic--even empathetic.

I think diplomacy comes with perspective (and maybe experience). If I need to explain to you how perspective is important in evaluating our relationships with others (specifically, in this case, our co-workers) then what's the point of continuing the discussion?

 

[sandman2122]

And all this debate changes what?

Not a darn thing.

Enjoy your weekend.

 

[satpak77]

Post 1 of this thread

Anyone talk to the FedEx recruiter last weekend in Atlanta at the Air, Inc. conference? Just wondering if anything good would have come of attending?

talk about getting off topic

 

[AdlerDriver]

Not the first thread drift - and won't be the last.

"Who knows?"

*You* know. You know whether or not it means anything to you.

But this discussion is gonna end up like the old cliche': If I have to explain it then you wouldn't understand.

In other words, if you can't discern the bias all by yourself, especially after four pages of this thread then you're really quite oblivious to it.

As for your perspective, let me put it like this: Throughout this thread I've tried to be diplomatic--even empathetic.

I think diplomacy comes with perspective (and maybe experience). If I need to explain to you how perspective is important in evaluating our relationships with others (specifically, in this case, our co-workers) then what's the point of continuing the discussion?

You don’t need to explain anything to me. I get it. It’s just difficult to address broad topics you throw out like a “military bias” without YOUR specific issue. I’m not oblivious to the bias toward a military pilot. Without the benefit of personally evaluating a pilot’s skill, I’ll pick a military pilot every time. Only because he/she is a known quantity with a baseline level of training that I can verify more easily than a civilian. Fortunately, most airlines dig a little deeper and have established hiring methods that allow them to hire a nice mix of pilots (obviously a better way to go).

So, it sounds like you want people to use their “perspective” and “measuring stick” to be more diplomatic when they meet you. Once again, you don’t need to explain perspective to me. My question was aimed at understanding yours. Since you won’t allow me to, I’ll just say that I take issue with your attitude about military pilots “fresh out” on their first civilian job. I happen to be on my third and have been out for quite a while. I don’t think you can make such a broad statement about military pilots. Just because he’s fresh out of the military on his first civilian job, you assume he has no perspective, point of reference or measuring stick. That’s quite an assumption. I’ve flown with pilots like that, but they’re not all like that. On the other hand, just because a pilot came up through a civilian route doesn’t necessarily mean he has the benefit of some magical perspective. A mature, experienced pilot (regardless of background) should be a positive influence in an airline cockpit. If he is not, it’s probably a personality issue – not a result of where he got his training.

You obviously bring some issues of your own to the cockpit as evidenced by your first example with the DC-6 story. You seem overly sensitive and probably expect to be insulted when you meet a military pilot, so you are. You bring your own bias to the table, assume one exists on the part of the other pilot and create a nice little conflict for yourself. Bottom line: You’re flying a 747 – so have a little confidence in yourself and quit worrying about whether your co-workers “appreciate” how you got there.

 

[mar]

My specific issue

As I said before, this thread isn't about how I'm treated on the flight deck.

This thread is about a certain level of bias and now with your latest post even condescension by military pilots towards civilian pilots.

If I, in fact, have a bias it's only been re-enforced by my personal experiences.

And I suppose you could make the same point--and essentially did.

I should have more confidence? Puh-LEEZE! I can forgive this one because we've never flown together...I'm borderline cocky. The "Five Hazardous Attitudes....I invented four of them...

Enjoy your career. You earned it.