FedEx at Air Inc.

[TheBaron]

b757driver...

You sad little man! Call me a brown-nose all you want; I prefer that to being a quitter, whining about how unfair the world is. I more than met the qualifications at FedEx and I wanted to make sure that someone noticed it. If you read my post you will see that I agreed that things are biased toward the military pilot and the huge networks they have developed, but it is still possible to get noticed and hired without "3 internal recommendations." There were 8 new hires in my class that had nothing but civilian flight experience. Being military doesn't guarantee a job here. They choose people they think they would enjoy doing an around the world trip with. Complainers and malcontents need not apply (maybe that is what they should put on the application!) Thank God the pioneers didn't have your determination...we'd all still be living on the east coast.

 

[mar]

The crux of the matter

If you read my post you will see that I agreed that things are biased toward the military pilot and the huge networks they have developed, but it is still possible to get noticed and hired without "3 internal recommendations."

Look, before someone jumps down my throat, I just want to say I'm not taking sides in this little debate.

But!

TheBaron has pretty much summed it up. Now that FedEx has become the Holy Grail for military pilots it's hard to deny their infiltration of hiring boards, training depts and management seats.

That's fine. You know, the last five jobs I've had I got because of my buddies. But like 757driver said, let's just call a spade a spade.

That's not whining. Hell I stopped updating my FedEx application when I got this job. I've always been more at home on the edge of things.

Good luck.

 

[Palomino]

how about concentrating on the product you are trying to sell: YOURSELF.

don't worry about discrimination, quotas, rumors, etc. you can always find a hurdle if you want to. but, that's just a reason to be lazy in your career pursuit.

i've swallowed my pride a fair amount and it has resulted in some dreams coming true.

knock the chip off, check the ego, swallow the pride. focus all of that wasted energy on networking, resume presentation, interview preparation and make yourself a desirable candidate for the position.

it does take work and effort for most of us to get the call. believe me, it is worth all the effort.

best of luck

 

[FNG_that's me]

I worked for an airline that had a similar pilot selection process as FEDEX.

Several applicants who exceeded all the minimum experience requirements were unable to secure an interview after several years of trying.

In the end the court sided with the pilots who filed the lawsuit. The fact that the company relied heavily on internal recommendations was seen as a form of discrimination.

The company agreed to hire all those named in the lawsuit and those named were also given a date of hire that represented when they would have been hired if not discriminated against.



The company no longer accepts internal recommendations of any kind as a result.

Care to name that airline, or did it go out of business because of all the no-load $hit-birds that it had to hire because of a lawsuit?...all because they couldn't make any friends at the airline.

Internal recs are the best way, from the company perspective, to ensure that you are getting a quality person not just a quality pilot. If you are such a great candidate, go out and meet some people at the airline that you want and get the job. That's what some other people on this board have done.

Can you imagine sitting down on a flight and when asked who your sponser was, you'd have to reply that it was a judge and a lawyer. Think you don't have any friends at that airline now? Just wait till you have to tell all your crews that.

BTW, not directed at you F4H, you just provided the info above.

 

[AdlerDriver]

TheBaron has pretty much summed it up. Now that FedEx has become the Holy Grail for military pilots it's hard to deny their infiltration of hiring boards, training depts and management seats.

First, there are alot of senior military pilots at Fedex, so it's not like they just started deciding to pursue jobs there. Second, are you implying that a military pilot would only hire another military pilot if they were part of a "hiring board, training dept or management"? I don't think most military pilots in a position to make those kinds of decisions would do that purely base on "military vs. civilian". Anyone with some common sense and the best interests of their company at heart would probably value a mix of pilot backgrounds.

 

[mar]

There *is* a bias.

I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just contributing to a discussion, ok?

I fly with a lot of ex-military guys, Capts and FEs. I listen to a lot of conversations.

For a lot of these military guys (not all, but most) this has been their only civilian job (just like FedEx).

And that fact, all by itself, means these guys really don't have an appreciation for what it takes for a civilian guy to get to that point.

You know, it's like when I first meet a Capt (ex-mil) that I've never flown with and he starts asking me about what I did before I flew 747s...

...(me), "...oh, you know, I flew Metros and DC6s around Alaska..."

...(him), "...oh, gee, I bet that was fun..."

Fun? The 747 is fun. The DC6 is back breaking.

I might as well be a kid sitting in my dads lap while he lets me steer the car.

Forget that I have 10,000 hours and have been a 121 Captain and Check Airman, groundschool instructor....etc...etc, ad nauseum.

I'll sum it up like this: I don't begrudge military pilots *anything*. It's hard work, it takes skill, and good for them.

But some of the guys I've been working with just don't see the flip side to that coin.

 

[V-STALL]

I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just contributing to a discussion, ok?

I fly with a lot of ex-military guys, Capts and FEs. I listen to a lot of conversations.

For a lot of these military guys (not all, but most) this has been their only civilian job (just like FedEx).

And that fact, all by itself, means these guys really don't have an appreciation for what it takes for a civilian guy to get to that point.

You know, it's like when I first meet a Capt (ex-mil) that I've never flown with and he starts asking me about what I did before I flew 747s...

...(me), "...oh, you know, I flew Metros and DC6s around Alaska..."

...(him), "...oh, gee, I bet that was fun..."

Fun? The 747 is fun. The DC6 is back breaking.

I might as well be a kid sitting in my dads lap while he lets me steer the car.

Forget that I have 10,000 hours and have been a 121 Captain and Check Airman, groundschool instructor....etc...etc, ad nauseum.

I'll sum it up like this: I don't begrudge military pilots *anything*. It's hard work, it takes skill, and good for them.

But some of the guys I've been working with just don't see the flip side to that coin.

Great post!

 

[AdlerDriver]

I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just contributing to a discussion, ok?

I fly with a lot of ex-military guys, Capts and FEs. I listen to a lot of conversations.

For a lot of these military guys (not all, but most) this has been their only civilian job (just like FedEx).

And that fact, all by itself, means these guys really don't have an appreciation for what it takes for a civilian guy to get to that point.

You know, it's like when I first meet a Capt (ex-mil) that I've never flown with and he starts asking me about what I did before I flew 747s...

...(me), "...oh, you know, I flew Metros and DC6s around Alaska..."

...(him), "...oh, gee, I bet that was fun..."

Fun? The 747 is fun. The DC6 is back breaking.

I might as well be a kid sitting in my dads lap while he lets me steer the car.

Forget that I have 10,000 hours and have been a 121 Captain and Check Airman, groundschool instructor....etc...etc, ad nauseum.

I'll sum it up like this: I don't begrudge military pilots *anything*. It's hard work, it takes skill, and good for them.

But some of the guys I've been working with just don't see the flip side to that coin.

I certainly don’t doubt you run into an occasional ex-military @sshole. Every demographic has its 1% share of idiots. The guy in your example though……..What do you want him to do when you tell him you used to fly a DC6 in Alaska? Offer to suck your d!ck?
“……oh, gee, I bet that was fun…” doesn’t sound like an insulting response to me. “a kid sitting in your dad’s lap”? Don’t you think you might be a little overly sensitive in this area?
Maybe you could come up with a little more compelling example of how most of the ex-military guys you fly with don't "appreciate" what it “took” you to get to this point in your career.

When a pilot tells you he’s ex-military, do YOU truly appreciate what it took HIM to get to that point in his career? I doubt it. Why would you. Maybe his job in the military was “back breaking” too. Not all military flying is Hollywood glamour. One difference: I doubt he would be on flightinfo b!tching about some civilian who didn’t “appreciate” his difficult career path in the proper way.

The good news is….. You’re BOTH sitting in a 747 doing a job you (hopefully) like. Be happy with that and quit living in the past. We ALL pay some kind of dues to get the job we want. Is it THAT important to you that everyone you fly with appreciates yours?

 

[b757driver]

You sad little man! Call me a brown-nose all you want; I prefer that to being a quitter, whining about how unfair the world is. I more than met the qualifications at FedEx and I wanted to make sure that someone noticed it. If you read my post you will see that I agreed that things are biased toward the military pilot and the huge networks they have developed, but it is still possible to get noticed and hired without "3 internal recommendations." There were 8 new hires in my class that had nothing but civilian flight experience. Being military doesn't guarantee a job here. They choose people they think they would enjoy doing an around the world trip with. Complainers and malcontents need not apply (maybe that is what they should put on the application!) Thank God the pioneers didn't have your determination...we'd all still be living on the east coast.

Now I KNOW you have no idea what you are talking about and you CERTAINLY know nothing about me.
FYI, I AM ex-military but that doesn't mean I have to follow the herd and that I can't speak for myself. Thank you for confirming what I already suspected!!!
Any for the upmteenth time (because you just don't get it, do you?), I calla spade a spade, pure and simple. And I'm perfectly happy where I am and have moved on, so I'm not whinging - just making an observation, my friend.

 

[b757driver]

I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just contributing to a discussion, ok?

I fly with a lot of ex-military guys, Capts and FEs. I listen to a lot of conversations.

For a lot of these military guys (not all, but most) this has been their only civilian job (just like FedEx).

And that fact, all by itself, means these guys really don't have an appreciation for what it takes for a civilian guy to get to that point.

You know, it's like when I first meet a Capt (ex-mil) that I've never flown with and he starts asking me about what I did before I flew 747s...

...(me), "...oh, you know, I flew Metros and DC6s around Alaska..."

...(him), "...oh, gee, I bet that was fun..."

Fun? The 747 is fun. The DC6 is back breaking.

I might as well be a kid sitting in my dads lap while he lets me steer the car.

Forget that I have 10,000 hours and have been a 121 Captain and Check Airman, groundschool instructor....etc...etc, ad nauseum.

I'll sum it up like this: I don't begrudge military pilots *anything*. It's hard work, it takes skill, and good for them.

But some of the guys I've been working with just don't see the flip side to that coin.

Excellent post, mar!
You hit the nail on the head here. This attitude is certainly prevalent and some, but not all ,military guys have limited knowledge when it comes to the flip side. I'm also ex-military so I know it from BOTH sides.
Adler - you want a compelling example? I'll give you one, since you asked.
How about the Capt who blew four tires on a MLW 747 because he "forgot" to flare before landing in DXB and then blamed it on the brakes! No, he was not civilian. We all make mistakes and there are good apples as well as bad. You should know that.
People should respect each other as professionals, no matter what their backgrounds.
Since I am ex-military, I do appreciate what those guys have gone through, but they chose to leave and enter the civilian world which is NOT an extension of the military. When in Rome..... Next question?
And yes, I do apprciate what military aviators go through. Next question?

 

[satpak77]

this is turning into a CIV versus MIL thread, I think we have enough of them on this forum already

"Joey has 4000 TT and 2000 in a SAAB, and Billy has 2000 TT, all in non-CRM crew F-16 jets"

who gets the job?

etc etc

I am sure Kit Darby has all the answers

 

[AdlerDriver]

Excellent post, mar!

You hit the nail on the head here. This attitude is certainly prevalent and some, but not all ,military guys have limited knowledge when it comes to the flip side. I'm also ex-military so I know it from BOTH sides.
Adler - you want a compelling example? I'll give you one, since you asked.
How about the Capt who blew four tires on a MLW 747 because he "forgot" to flare before landing in DXB and then blamed it on the brakes! No, he was not civilian. We all make mistakes and there are good apples as well as bad. You should know that.
People should respect each other as professionals, no matter what their backgrounds.
Since I am ex-military, I do appreciate what those guys have gone through, but they chose to leave and enter the civilian world which is NOT an extension of the military. When in Rome..... Next question?
And yes, I do apprciate what military aviators go through. Next question?

757driver,
Have you been drinking?? :laugh:
Most of your post is not even related to what we were discussing. Try to stay on point.
You may be ex-military – but your profile says “military non-aviator”. So YOU don’t know it from BOTH sides either. Being former military in itself doesn’t qualify you to talk about being a military PILOT. I don’t claim to know anything about driving a tank just because I was a military pilot. I would say that for every military pilot with “limited knowledge” of the “flip side”, there’s an equal number of civilian pilots ignorant of military aviation. Who cares.

Your compelling example…. WTF does that have to do with the discussion at hand?? Nothing. Just an obvious attempt to insert your agenda into this discussion. Some ex-military pilot porks away a landing – so what. That doesn't have anything to do with a pilot not “appreciating” the background of another. We weren’t talking about making mistakes. The fact that a military pilot chose to leave, the civilian world not being an extension of the military and “when in Rome”. Dude, WTF are you talking about. None of that was even talked about and isn’t germane to our discussion.

I think it’s safe to say, when pilots on this board say they’re “ex-military”, they mean they actually earned military wings and flew military aircraft. If you want to use YOUR ex-military status to attempt to bolster some opinion you throw out, make sure you acknowledge the fact that you haven’t. It also wouldn't hurt to have the opinion you offer have something to do with what's being talked about too.

 

[satpak77]

Jimmy flies G-4's but its all part 91, will that hurt him? He does have lots of international time.

Jimmy's buddy, Trevor, flies RJs, another EFIS jet, all part 121, but all domestic, no international time.

Who does _______ (insert major airline) call for the interview?

etc etc ad nauseum

 

[TheBaron]

b757driver...

You are correct in stating that I don't know you; I am forced to judge you by what you post.

b757driver quote...
It's been quite clear for some time that a whole community of potential employees are NOT being given an EQUAL opportunity and are being discriminated against for not having "enough buds" to recommend them. This remains the SOLE criteria for hiring, not experience, qualifications, nor individual merit or achievement.

I thought I pointed out that this is in fact not the case. Maybe you can read my post again more carefully.

b757driver quote...
Getting a ground job @ Fedex is NOT a way in. That's fact.

Funny...my sponsor (my only "bud recommendation") worked in operations at FedEx for 6 years and then decided to become a pilot. He went to school and worked his way up through the civilian ranks. His "ground job" there sure seemed to work out well for him.

b757driver quote...
Now I KNOW you have no idea what you are talking about and you CERTAINLY know nothing about me.

You KNOW that I don't know what I'm talking about... funny, I'm the one that went through the whole interview process and got the job, maybe I do know something that you don't.

b757driver quote...
FYI, I AM ex-military but that doesn't mean I have to follow the herd and that I can't speak for myself. Thank you for confirming what I already suspected!!!

What did you already suspect?
That I spent 13 years enlisted in the Marine Corps and got out to follow my dream. Or maybe you suspected that I have been a check airman on three different airplanes, for three different FSDO's. Maybe that I had been a Chief Pilot for two air carriers as well as a Director of Operations. Or maybe, just maybe, you don't know what YOU are talking about.

My entire point is that regardless of all the negative impressions people have about getting a chance at FedEx, there are plenty of people here that have done what you seem to think is impossible.

For all those non-connected civilians (like me) that dream of flying at FedEx,
don't give up.

 

[b757driver]

how about concentrating on the product you are trying to sell: YOURSELF.

don't worry about discrimination, quotas, rumors, etc. you can always find a hurdle if you want to. but, that's just a reason to be lazy in your career pursuit.

i've swallowed my pride a fair amount and it has resulted in some dreams coming true.

knock the chip off, check the ego, swallow the pride. focus all of that wasted energy on networking, resume presentation, interview preparation and make yourself a desirable candidate for the position.

it does take work and effort for most of us to get the call. believe me, it is worth all the effort.

best of luck

Been there, done that.......didn't work.

So....I swallowed my pride and did something totally different with my energy which required NO games, NO application fees, NO cookies, NO collecting resumes for possible hiring and NO years waiting for the "dream" job - I went overseas and pretty much wrote my own check. Not only that, but they paid for the type rating to boot!

The best part? The fact that I did not have to rely on others to get me an "in" and it was soley down to me whether I made the cut or not. I was able to control my own destiny. In fact, I did know a couple of people there already but it was neither a requirement nor necessary. I just did it the plain old-fashioned way, with hard work and an application for a concrete job.

I'll tell you, it was so refreshing being offered a position without playing silly games. They had a need for professional crews with experience, I had a need to change my circumstances and clearly had what they were looking for. Two parties coming together and able to reach a mutually beneficial result. Simple, nothing complicated nor convoluted.
I am more than happy with my lot and it would take something pretty phenonmenal to get me to take a similar position back home. For starters, I would have to take an immediate 50% salary cut! No thanks. I've already been approached by two companies back home that I turned down. It certainly feels very different when the boot is on the other foot.

Also, don't forget, not many people have the same circumstances. So while those that advocate persistence, realize that not everyone can afford the luxury of waiting years, sometimes many years. If a job is advertised and resumes are solicited, it is natural to assume that the need is for NOW, not in 10 years' time. If it is meant for future hiring then the ad should clearly state so. In some countries that would come under the Trades Description Act and/or truth in advertising.

Best of luck to everyone. If you want and are prepared to play games for sometimes several years, go ahead. If not, and you want a totally different experience where individual merit and real equal opportunity are valued, then you need to look at more innovating companies. Courses for horses, I guess.