FedEx at Air Inc.

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Okay RJDC, so you and mr 757driver feel you're being discriminated against? Unbelievable!! What should we call this new form of discrimination? Do you think Fedex is the only company that relies on internal recommendations during their hiring process? For that matter, most other companies (not just airlines) do the same thing. There’s more to hiring than hours/experience on an app or resume and an hour in an interview room. The opinion of a known pilot who has flown with you, worked with you and knows you personally is invaluable in making that hiring decision.

You think someone is going to get a judge to force a business to ignore a source of information that would allow them to make the best decision on a potential employee? That employee is an investment/commitment who will require months and thousands of dollars in training and represent a 20-30+ year relationship with Fedex. Why should they be required to make that investment and commitment without evaluating all information available? No judge is going to force them to do that.

So, with more than 10,000 apps of qualified individuals on file and many thousands more trying to put them on file, what should be a “fair” basis for giving someone an interview? Unlike other carriers that are hiring right now, Fedex doesn’t waste their own resources and their candidate’s time interviewing people they don’t plan to hire. By the time they are sitting across the interview table, candidates have been evaluated to the point that Fedex wants to hire them unless they give them a reason not to. Part of this process is heavily dependant on incumbent pilots vouching for the candidates.

What criteria do YOU think they should use? Hours? Years of experience? Everyone who is competitive has them. You said it yourself: “Most of us are more than qualified to work there otherwise”. Do you really think anyone cares if you have more hours than some other pilot once you’ve both reached the point of being competitive for the job? What do you want Fedex to do when evaluating you and some other equally qualified candidate who has a recommendation? Should they give you the interview because you whine the loudest or give it to him because someone they trust says he’s worth hiring? I’ll take the second guy every time.

Other airlines rely on internal recs also. They just tease you with an interview and then show you the door because you don’t have someone pulling you in from the inside. Like I said, Fedex would rather put one more filter on the process and avoid wasting their time and yours.

FedEx is staffed by 90% ex/current-military pilots . If you're a civilian hired by FedEx that is like winning the lottery. Could you imagine the howls of protest from ex-military pilots if airline xyz hired 90% civilian pilots?

 

[RAC396]

FedEx is staffed by 90% ex/current-military pilots . If you're a civilian hired by FedEx that is like winning the lottery. Could you imagine the howls of protest from ex-military pilots if airline xyz hired 90% civilian pilots?

This is sour grapes,and blatently untrue, I have been teaching new hires for five years,and the number of non military guys is well above the 10% mentioned above. Until 9-11,the non military guys avoided CARGO.They all wanted to be United,Delta,or US Air,pilots struting through the terminal with their hats on.The result was the military pilots now have a biger network,and have more access to internal rec's.Iknow of a few ex military applicants who wish they didn't know as many people on board, or maybe so many people didn't remember them.

 

[sandman2122]

Hey Baron!

I want your avatar's phone number!!

 

[AdlerDriver]

FedEx is staffed by 90% ex/current-military pilots . If you're a civilian hired by FedEx that is like winning the lottery. Could you imagine the howls of protest from ex-military pilots if airline xyz hired 90% civilian pilots?

I doubt there would be an "howls" at all. No military pilot would want to work for a company that blatantly stupid.

 

[Purpledog]

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! The entitlement generation. Pitching boxes does help and everyone is capable if you can lower your holier than thou standards. I know I guy who did it at FDX and a friend who got picked up at Brown after being a courier.

 

[capt. megadeth]

What about the people who have been persistent for 3, 4 or more years, should they go on dreaming for another decade?? Why should they carry on flogging a dead horse. It is human nature to expect a return on your investment at some point. If you can't get past the first gate no matter how good you are, you really are wasting your time. Sorry, but I call a spade a spade and sometimes the truth hurts.

I tried at FedEx and UPS for over 5 years. It all worked out. Yes, it does suck to kiss a$$ and go through all all the b.s. in order to get the job but one thing is for sure......if you get pi$$ed about it and give up, you definitely won't get the job...... Soooooo, ya just gotta do it if you want the job.

 

[b757driver]

Calling a spade a spade!

Good for you!
5 years is a an extremely long time to wait for something that you have no control over and I would venture to say most people would rather focus their energies on something that produces results much sooner.
As I said before, I have no axe to grind, and am happy in my current job. I have absolutely no wish to be part of a company that does this kind of thing. My reason for jumping in is to warn other, less well-informed pilots what lies ahead and if they know no one at FEDEX very well, their energies would be better spent elsewhere. The choice is theirs to make but sometimes you can learn from others "mistakes" and save a lot of heartache. I, for one, would have appreciated the downside of airline apps/hiring practices instead of all the rah, rah stuff and "hang on in there", persistence pays off, let's go to a job fair stuff. I used to drink all the Koolaid stuff until I found out what really went on behind closed doors.
Yes, I know that most airlines use internal recs but not to the extreme that FEdex does - THREE INTERNAL RECS who know you intimately, come on, I was not born yesterday!!! I believe FDX is the only carrier that REQUIRES 3 before they'll even look at you. If that is 100% true then they are unique and you cannot compare them to other carriers that also use internal recs. Most of the others do not use these as the SOLE criteria for interviewing. No wonder it takes 5 or more years!!
Let's just all agree that a spade is a spade and change the wording on the app. No one has mentioned that part yet, I wonder why? What do those words mean? Just lip service? A little white lie?
Also, the majority of airlines (including virtually every foreign carrier) does not do this type of screening and they do just fine. Holier than thou? It's the other way around surely. Fedex's discriminatory practices are what makes IT holier than thou, not the people who are merely pointing out the FACTS. I would not have wasted MY time (a few years ago) if HR had been more forthright and up-front in their hiring process rather than hide behind some shady practices and take my money and run. I suppose you fully justify being hoodwinked also. There is nothing wrong with using internal recommendations but there is something fundamentally wrong when you make the hiring process a clique and automatically exclude large portions of qualified candidates. Again, if that's what they want to do, fine, but don't insult my intelligence by saying "we are an equal opportunity employer" when clearly they are not. THAT is my only objection.

I did not mention anything about suing, that was someone else. Why do you folks always assume the extreme? Only in America, as they say.....I now understand more than ever why the rest of the world laughs at us when it comes to litigation......but that's another subject.

Quote <I shipped Christmas cookies to HR...anything>

Yes, sometimes brown-nosing (sorry UPS!) will get you everything. Please! How professional is that? This sounds like 8th grade stuff. You should should not HAVE to do things like this to be competitive.
I recall being told once by a check airman that "you can brown nose your way all over this industry, be your boss's yes man and gopher, or you risk popularity by speaking your mind when approriate, even if you have to disagree with others or company culture". Those words have stuck with me ever since. At the end of the day each style will probably have the same rate of career advancement, but the latter will make you feel a whole lot better about yourself and that's where I stand today.

 

[sandman2122]

Sure you don't have an "axe to grind".

It's pretty evident 7 paragraphs later.......

 

[satpak77]

Yes, sometimes brown-nosing (sorry UPS!) will get you everything. Please! How professional is that? This sounds like 8th grade stuff. You should should not HAVE to do things like this to be competitive.

Call it brown-nosing, politic-ing, etc. Some of us call it "getting noticed." If you want to apply and then just let your resume sit in a pile with 1000's of others, and take no further action, because "its not right", then fine.

Others have sent flowers to CP's secretaries, tackled Cecil Ewell (AA) in the parking lot, and sent squadron patches to HR departments. One Capt I met while jump seating a long long time ago at American was a HS grad, no college, but while at Eagle he had accumulated like 20 letters of appreciation from passengers, which he attached to his resume. No, it was not required to submit these.

Barring anything else, two resumes with 5000 TT/2000 turbine PIC sit on the CP's desk. Resume 1 was received and nothing further heard from the applicant. Resume 2 was received along with recommendation letters, squadron patches, and bi-weekly phone calls to check the status by the applicant. A bottle of Wild Turkey was even sent to the CEO by the applicant.

Guess who gets the interview call?

Hey, its your life man, you run it how you want to, just don't b1tch when it does not turn out how you wanted it to

 

[flyer4hire]

I worked for an airline that had a similar pilot selection process as FEDEX.

Several applicants who exceeded all the minimum experience requirements were unable to secure an interview after several years of trying.

In the end the court sided with the pilots who filed the lawsuit. The fact that the company relied heavily on internal recommendations was seen as a form of discrimination.

The company agreed to hire all those named in the lawsuit and those named were also given a date of hire that represented when they would have been hired if not discriminated against.

The company no longer accepts internal recommendations of any kind as a result.

 

[TheBaron]

b757driver...

You sad little man! Call me a brown-nose all you want; I prefer that to being a quitter, whining about how unfair the world is. I more than met the qualifications at FedEx and I wanted to make sure that someone noticed it. If you read my post you will see that I agreed that things are biased toward the military pilot and the huge networks they have developed, but it is still possible to get noticed and hired without "3 internal recommendations." There were 8 new hires in my class that had nothing but civilian flight experience. Being military doesn't guarantee a job here. They choose people they think they would enjoy doing an around the world trip with. Complainers and malcontents need not apply (maybe that is what they should put on the application!) Thank God the pioneers didn't have your determination...we'd all still be living on the east coast.

 

[mar]

The crux of the matter

If you read my post you will see that I agreed that things are biased toward the military pilot and the huge networks they have developed, but it is still possible to get noticed and hired without "3 internal recommendations."

Look, before someone jumps down my throat, I just want to say I'm not taking sides in this little debate.

But!

TheBaron has pretty much summed it up. Now that FedEx has become the Holy Grail for military pilots it's hard to deny their infiltration of hiring boards, training depts and management seats.

That's fine. You know, the last five jobs I've had I got because of my buddies. But like 757driver said, let's just call a spade a spade.

That's not whining. Hell I stopped updating my FedEx application when I got this job. I've always been more at home on the edge of things.

Good luck.

 

[Palomino]

how about concentrating on the product you are trying to sell: YOURSELF.

don't worry about discrimination, quotas, rumors, etc. you can always find a hurdle if you want to. but, that's just a reason to be lazy in your career pursuit.

i've swallowed my pride a fair amount and it has resulted in some dreams coming true.

knock the chip off, check the ego, swallow the pride. focus all of that wasted energy on networking, resume presentation, interview preparation and make yourself a desirable candidate for the position.

it does take work and effort for most of us to get the call. believe me, it is worth all the effort.

best of luck

 

[FNG_that's me]

I worked for an airline that had a similar pilot selection process as FEDEX.

Several applicants who exceeded all the minimum experience requirements were unable to secure an interview after several years of trying.

In the end the court sided with the pilots who filed the lawsuit. The fact that the company relied heavily on internal recommendations was seen as a form of discrimination.

The company agreed to hire all those named in the lawsuit and those named were also given a date of hire that represented when they would have been hired if not discriminated against.



The company no longer accepts internal recommendations of any kind as a result.

Care to name that airline, or did it go out of business because of all the no-load $hit-birds that it had to hire because of a lawsuit?...all because they couldn't make any friends at the airline.

Internal recs are the best way, from the company perspective, to ensure that you are getting a quality person not just a quality pilot. If you are such a great candidate, go out and meet some people at the airline that you want and get the job. That's what some other people on this board have done.

Can you imagine sitting down on a flight and when asked who your sponser was, you'd have to reply that it was a judge and a lawyer. Think you don't have any friends at that airline now? Just wait till you have to tell all your crews that.

BTW, not directed at you F4H, you just provided the info above.

 

[AdlerDriver]

TheBaron has pretty much summed it up. Now that FedEx has become the Holy Grail for military pilots it's hard to deny their infiltration of hiring boards, training depts and management seats.

First, there are alot of senior military pilots at Fedex, so it's not like they just started deciding to pursue jobs there. Second, are you implying that a military pilot would only hire another military pilot if they were part of a "hiring board, training dept or management"? I don't think most military pilots in a position to make those kinds of decisions would do that purely base on "military vs. civilian". Anyone with some common sense and the best interests of their company at heart would probably value a mix of pilot backgrounds.

 

[mar]

There *is* a bias.

I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just contributing to a discussion, ok?

I fly with a lot of ex-military guys, Capts and FEs. I listen to a lot of conversations.

For a lot of these military guys (not all, but most) this has been their only civilian job (just like FedEx).

And that fact, all by itself, means these guys really don't have an appreciation for what it takes for a civilian guy to get to that point.

You know, it's like when I first meet a Capt (ex-mil) that I've never flown with and he starts asking me about what I did before I flew 747s...

...(me), "...oh, you know, I flew Metros and DC6s around Alaska..."

...(him), "...oh, gee, I bet that was fun..."

Fun? The 747 is fun. The DC6 is back breaking.

I might as well be a kid sitting in my dads lap while he lets me steer the car.

Forget that I have 10,000 hours and have been a 121 Captain and Check Airman, groundschool instructor....etc...etc, ad nauseum.

I'll sum it up like this: I don't begrudge military pilots *anything*. It's hard work, it takes skill, and good for them.

But some of the guys I've been working with just don't see the flip side to that coin.

 

[V-STALL]

I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just contributing to a discussion, ok?

I fly with a lot of ex-military guys, Capts and FEs. I listen to a lot of conversations.

For a lot of these military guys (not all, but most) this has been their only civilian job (just like FedEx).

And that fact, all by itself, means these guys really don't have an appreciation for what it takes for a civilian guy to get to that point.

You know, it's like when I first meet a Capt (ex-mil) that I've never flown with and he starts asking me about what I did before I flew 747s...

...(me), "...oh, you know, I flew Metros and DC6s around Alaska..."

...(him), "...oh, gee, I bet that was fun..."

Fun? The 747 is fun. The DC6 is back breaking.

I might as well be a kid sitting in my dads lap while he lets me steer the car.

Forget that I have 10,000 hours and have been a 121 Captain and Check Airman, groundschool instructor....etc...etc, ad nauseum.

I'll sum it up like this: I don't begrudge military pilots *anything*. It's hard work, it takes skill, and good for them.

But some of the guys I've been working with just don't see the flip side to that coin.

Great post!

 

[AdlerDriver]

I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just contributing to a discussion, ok?

I fly with a lot of ex-military guys, Capts and FEs. I listen to a lot of conversations.

For a lot of these military guys (not all, but most) this has been their only civilian job (just like FedEx).

And that fact, all by itself, means these guys really don't have an appreciation for what it takes for a civilian guy to get to that point.

You know, it's like when I first meet a Capt (ex-mil) that I've never flown with and he starts asking me about what I did before I flew 747s...

...(me), "...oh, you know, I flew Metros and DC6s around Alaska..."

...(him), "...oh, gee, I bet that was fun..."

Fun? The 747 is fun. The DC6 is back breaking.

I might as well be a kid sitting in my dads lap while he lets me steer the car.

Forget that I have 10,000 hours and have been a 121 Captain and Check Airman, groundschool instructor....etc...etc, ad nauseum.

I'll sum it up like this: I don't begrudge military pilots *anything*. It's hard work, it takes skill, and good for them.

But some of the guys I've been working with just don't see the flip side to that coin.

I certainly don’t doubt you run into an occasional ex-military @sshole. Every demographic has its 1% share of idiots. The guy in your example though……..What do you want him to do when you tell him you used to fly a DC6 in Alaska? Offer to suck your d!ck?
“……oh, gee, I bet that was fun…” doesn’t sound like an insulting response to me. “a kid sitting in your dad’s lap”? Don’t you think you might be a little overly sensitive in this area?
Maybe you could come up with a little more compelling example of how most of the ex-military guys you fly with don't "appreciate" what it “took” you to get to this point in your career.

When a pilot tells you he’s ex-military, do YOU truly appreciate what it took HIM to get to that point in his career? I doubt it. Why would you. Maybe his job in the military was “back breaking” too. Not all military flying is Hollywood glamour. One difference: I doubt he would be on flightinfo b!tching about some civilian who didn’t “appreciate” his difficult career path in the proper way.

The good news is….. You’re BOTH sitting in a 747 doing a job you (hopefully) like. Be happy with that and quit living in the past. We ALL pay some kind of dues to get the job we want. Is it THAT important to you that everyone you fly with appreciates yours?

 

[b757driver]

You sad little man! Call me a brown-nose all you want; I prefer that to being a quitter, whining about how unfair the world is. I more than met the qualifications at FedEx and I wanted to make sure that someone noticed it. If you read my post you will see that I agreed that things are biased toward the military pilot and the huge networks they have developed, but it is still possible to get noticed and hired without "3 internal recommendations." There were 8 new hires in my class that had nothing but civilian flight experience. Being military doesn't guarantee a job here. They choose people they think they would enjoy doing an around the world trip with. Complainers and malcontents need not apply (maybe that is what they should put on the application!) Thank God the pioneers didn't have your determination...we'd all still be living on the east coast.

Now I KNOW you have no idea what you are talking about and you CERTAINLY know nothing about me.
FYI, I AM ex-military but that doesn't mean I have to follow the herd and that I can't speak for myself. Thank you for confirming what I already suspected!!!
Any for the upmteenth time (because you just don't get it, do you?), I calla spade a spade, pure and simple. And I'm perfectly happy where I am and have moved on, so I'm not whinging - just making an observation, my friend.

 

[b757driver]

I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just contributing to a discussion, ok?

I fly with a lot of ex-military guys, Capts and FEs. I listen to a lot of conversations.

For a lot of these military guys (not all, but most) this has been their only civilian job (just like FedEx).

And that fact, all by itself, means these guys really don't have an appreciation for what it takes for a civilian guy to get to that point.

You know, it's like when I first meet a Capt (ex-mil) that I've never flown with and he starts asking me about what I did before I flew 747s...

...(me), "...oh, you know, I flew Metros and DC6s around Alaska..."

...(him), "...oh, gee, I bet that was fun..."

Fun? The 747 is fun. The DC6 is back breaking.

I might as well be a kid sitting in my dads lap while he lets me steer the car.

Forget that I have 10,000 hours and have been a 121 Captain and Check Airman, groundschool instructor....etc...etc, ad nauseum.

I'll sum it up like this: I don't begrudge military pilots *anything*. It's hard work, it takes skill, and good for them.

But some of the guys I've been working with just don't see the flip side to that coin.

Excellent post, mar!
You hit the nail on the head here. This attitude is certainly prevalent and some, but not all ,military guys have limited knowledge when it comes to the flip side. I'm also ex-military so I know it from BOTH sides.
Adler - you want a compelling example? I'll give you one, since you asked.
How about the Capt who blew four tires on a MLW 747 because he "forgot" to flare before landing in DXB and then blamed it on the brakes! No, he was not civilian. We all make mistakes and there are good apples as well as bad. You should know that.
People should respect each other as professionals, no matter what their backgrounds.
Since I am ex-military, I do appreciate what those guys have gone through, but they chose to leave and enter the civilian world which is NOT an extension of the military. When in Rome..... Next question?
And yes, I do apprciate what military aviators go through. Next question?