Feb. PBS Bid Awards - ASA

[dojetdriver]

I understood that you had already taken concessions...at another job. To me that had no bearing on whether we should have taken concessions here, at that time. To me it was never a choice between whether we take concessions or we go BK. To me it was more philosophical. There were no guarantees either way that vote went down. To me it was a debate of do we keep our pay and see what happens or do we take less than a 7% hit and give our management one last chance at making a run at it (of course with some caveats, ie all the letters that went along with that LOA). To me, no side is wrong but I personally thought that we had a better chance by agreeing with the LOA as a whole. But I do think there is an argument you can make that is unprovable that we would have been better off voting it down.

Now go ahead and tell me how I misunderstood what you said or that I didn't get the point.

By the way, thanks for the correction.

All I'm sayin' is, "until you've walked mile in another guys shoes, you may not understand how/why they think the way they do". But if you do, don't give the shoes back, because at least you'll still have something left when it's said and done.

You simply find yourself in the SAME situation that myself (and others) did 2+ years ago. You can make the points to defend your rationale all you want, I can do the same. Point is, I'd rather been out of a job than take ANOTHER pay cut. Just like you now. If you want to dismiss my experience because it "happened at another job", sure, whatever. Sorry, it STILL has bearing on the argument.

You don't always have to disagree with everybody over everything all the time you know.

 

[Nevets]

All I'm sayin' is, "until you've walked mile in another guys shoes, you may not understand how/why they think the way they do". But if you do, don't give the shoes back, because at least you'll still have something left when it's said and done.

You simply find yourself in the SAME situation that myself (and others) did 2+ years ago. You can make the points to defend your rationale all you want, I can do the same. Point is, I'd rather been out of a job than take ANOTHER pay cut. Just like you now. If you want to dismiss my experience because it "happened at another job", sure, whatever. Sorry, it STILL has bearing on the argument.

You don't always have to disagree with everybody over everything all the time you know.

Neither do you my friend. I didn't mean to demean your experience, just that I thought that the emotion of that experience was irrelevant to the facts of the matter at XJT at the time. I actually agree with you though in that having the feeling of rather being out of a job than taking concessions is ok. That was the philosophical difference between you and those like myself that felt like giving the company one last fighting chance was reasonable at the time. And like I said, I don't know that what we chose was the correct path but I stand by my vote. I understand not wanting to take another concession which is why I feel the way I do now. I might feel different about taking a concession now (PBS as it stands now) if we hadnt take them two years ago. Also, if I ever find myself at DAL for example, and the circumstances are such that they ask for concessions there, my experience and emotions of what I went through two years ago would not come into the picture on my decision, only the facts at the time. I do feel that maybe these things shape our philosophy on things and maybe that is what I wasn't understanding.

Your turn to piss.

 

[V1rowt8]

Ok back on subject. PBS. With the ASA PBS, two four days touch the first and last day of vacation, the trips get dropped but what happens to line value? If the dropped trips reduce your line below min guarantee, is ones pay actual vacation week plus flying or min guarantee? At XJT you can fly one trip in a vacation month and get paid min guarantee 75 hrs. The reasoning here is that a pilot should be able to enjoy his or her vacation if the trips get dropped and not be penalized financially. What is the point in getting the trips dropped if you can't enjoy your vacation because of the financial penalty? Any trips picked up on days off during vacation is credited as add pay ( added to min guarantee). A pilot can fly a couple of trips and get over one hundred hrs pay for a month. A pilot that has four weeks of vacation can seriously augment their pay and QOL. Last year many XJT pilots were getting 150 hr month pay on vacation months in the first quarter because of red flag (150% pay for trips picked up on days off) and 12-14 days off. Can PBS do this?

 

[dojetdriver]

Ok back on subject. PBS. With the ASA PBS, two four days touch the first and last day of vacation, the trips get dropped but what happens to line value? If the dropped trips reduce your line below min guarantee, is ones pay actual vacation week plus flying or min guarantee? At XJT you can fly one trip in a vacation month and get paid min guarantee 75 hrs. The reasoning here is that a pilot should be able to enjoy his or her vacation if the trips get dropped and not be penalized financially. What is the point in getting the trips dropped if you can't enjoy your vacation because of the financial penalty? Any trips picked up on days off during vacation is credited as add pay ( added to min guarantee). A pilot can fly a couple of trips and get over one hundred hrs pay for a month. A pilot that has four weeks of vacation can seriously augment their pay and QOL. Last year many XJT pilots were getting 150 hr month pay on vacation months in the first quarter because of red flag (150% pay for trips picked up on days off) and 12-14 days off. Can PBS do this?

If you read, here, there, or the crackpipe, if the pilot "tricks" the system properly, YES, they will get paid min guaranty and get the same, or similar time off as XJT during line bid/vacation conflict.

But I'm curious as to the second part as well. Can an ASA pilot pick up over vacation and have the trip credit go above his min guaranty?

 

[OCP]

Ok back on subject. PBS. With the ASA PBS, two four days touch the first and last day of vacation, the trips get dropped but what happens to line value? If the dropped trips reduce your line below min guarantee, is ones pay actual vacation week plus flying or min guarantee? At XJT you can fly one trip in a vacation month and get paid min guarantee 75 hrs. The reasoning here is that a pilot should be able to enjoy his or her vacation if the trips get dropped and not be penalized financially. What is the point in getting the trips dropped if you can't enjoy your vacation because of the financial penalty? Any trips picked up on days off during vacation is credited as add pay ( added to min guarantee). A pilot can fly a couple of trips and get over one hundred hrs pay for a month. A pilot that has four weeks of vacation can seriously augment their pay and QOL. Last year many XJT pilots were getting 150 hr month pay on vacation months in the first quarter because of red flag (150% pay for trips picked up on days off) and 12-14 days off. Can PBS do this?

There is no such thing as a trip touching vacation and getting dropped with PBS, because PBS will not award a paring that is over your vacation. With the system you need to make a min credit for each month. Once that credit limit has been met, the system stops awarding parings to you. Our system allows a higher or lower credit, depending on what you want to do. Make more money, or have more vacation.

From what we have seen those who want to maximize their vacation have had not problem and have had better results than previous line bidding.

I don't know about picking up trips over vacation. I'm not sure we have that at all here at ASA. You can sell your vacation back, then pick up trips, but only if the company needs you too.

 

[OCP]

If you read, here, there, or the crackpipe, if the pilot "tricks" the system properly, YES, they will get paid min guaranty and get the same, or similar time off as XJT during line bid/vacation conflict.

But I'm curious as to the second part as well. Can an ASA pilot pick up over vacation and have the trip credit go above his min guaranty?

There is no "tricking" the system. That is what people like you seem to be missing. Maximizing vacation was an important thing for us to not lose. That is why our system allows it and it is easy to do.

 

[79%N1]

So XJT guys exclaim so often that it is sooooo important to maximize their vacation time off, because the days off are so important, etc. In the next breath they claim how they want to be able to pick up more flying on their vacation days! Which is it? Seems like simple greed to me. Drop all my touching trip and make sure I get paid for the work I'm not doing - but, let me go ahead and double dip by then flying on those precious off days and get paid double. No, we're not losing any money!

 

[LazyLightnin']

I just wish they'd shut the hell up in the hotel vans about how neat their contract is. I'm trying read the paper, slick.

 

[V1rowt8]

So XJT guys exclaim so often that it is sooooo important to maximize their vacation time off, because the days off are so important, etc. In the next breath they claim how they want to be able to pick up more flying on their vacation days! Which is it? Seems like simple greed to me. Drop all my touching trip and make sure I get paid for the work I'm not doing - but, let me go ahead and double dip by then flying on those precious off days and get paid double. No, we're not losing any money!

Im guessing the reason why some pilots are double dipping is to make up the concessions, down grades, lost days off, QOL, benefits to name a few that they were forced to take over the last decade. How is that greedy? When the airlines were making record profits did they come to the pilot groups and offer more pay? Nope. They just drag out CBA negotiations for as long as they can. How long did ASA pilots negotiate their last contract? The point is unfortunately the professional airline pilot has been conditioned to take care of numero uno when it comes to pay and QOL. Sorry if most pilots don't trust management to take care of their best interests.

Currently XJTrs have the option to either maximize their vacation or work a little more to make more on their vacation months. At least they have the option to do this. The ASA PBS system does not allow this to the best of my knowledge, if I am wrong I stand corrected.

 

[LazyLightnin']

You are wrong and will be considered corrected.

 

[asayankee]

Im guessing the reason why some pilots are double dipping is to make up the concessions, down grades, lost days off, QOL, benefits to name a few that they were forced to take over the last decade. How is that greedy? When the airlines were making record profits did they come to the pilot groups and offer more pay? Nope. They just drag out CBA negotiations for as long as they can. How long did ASA pilots negotiate their last contract? The point is unfortunately the professional airline pilot has been conditioned to take care of numero uno when it comes to pay and QOL. Sorry if most pilots don't trust management to take care of their best interests.

Currently XJTrs have the option to either maximize their vacation or work a little more to make more on their vacation months. At least they have the option to do this. The ASA PBS system does not allow this to the best of my knowledge, if I am wrong I stand corrected.

The ASA system allows exactly that....

 

[Nevets]

So XJT guys exclaim so often that it is sooooo important to maximize their vacation time off, because the days off are so important, etc. In the next breath they claim how they want to be able to pick up more flying on their vacation days! Which is it? Seems like simple greed to me. Drop all my touching trip and make sure I get paid for the work I'm not doing - but, let me go ahead and double dip by then flying on those precious off days and get paid double. No, we're not losing any money!

That's the beauty of our system. You may want max days off on your vacation but circumstances may change where you need the extra money. You can pick up trips over those days off and it pays above guarantee. How does that cost the company any more. You either don't work and get paid your 75 hours or you work a trip(s) and get paid 75+the value of the trip you picked up.

You guys should educate yourself with our system just as we are with yours. You may find out it's better.

You are wrong and will be considered corrected.

The ASA system allows exactly that....

Your system allows you to pick up trips over vacation and pay on top of guarantee? Our scheduling committee chairman that is not the case with your PBS.

 

[OCP]

That's the beauty of our system. You may want max days off on your vacation but circumstances may change where you need the extra money. You can pick up trips over those days off and it pays above guarantee. How does that cost the company any more. You either don't work and get paid your 75 hours or you work a trip(s) and get paid 75+the value of the trip you picked up.

You guys should educate yourself with our system just as we are with yours. You may find out it's better.




Your system allows you to pick up trips over vacation and pay on top of guarantee? Our scheduling committee chairman that is not the case with your PBS.

No you can't work over your vacation, but you can minimize your vacation and make over 75hrs.

 

[Nevets]

No you can't work over your vacation, but you can minimize your vacation and make over 75hrs.

This is just ONE way our system has more flexibility. You may want to maximize vacation time when you bid but then can work over vacation if circumstances change. And the fact that there is some open time allows that flexibility. In fact, in our system you can bid around your vacation so there is no trip touching so you get your line value and the 24.75 hours vacation pay AND THEN work over that 7 days of vacation IF circumstances change and you need to or just simply want to.

How can anybody argue against that?

 

[dojetdriver]

There is no "tricking" the system. That is what people like you seem to be missing. Maximizing vacation was an important thing for us to not lose. That is why our system allows it and it is easy to do.

I'm not "missing" anything. I FULLY understand that the PBS system allows the maximization of vacation time.

The words "tricking the system" seem to be the term that even the ASA guys use to describe how they set up their preferences for max vacation time.

 

[701EV]

I'm sorry but, who wants to fly on their vacation?

Vacation is time off.

No one needs money that bad.

If you do go find a part time job!

 

[dojetdriver]

I'm sorry but, who wants to fly on their vacation?

Vacation is time off.

No one needs money that bad.

If you do go find a part time job!

The SAME guys that pick up open time on their days off.

 

[100/hour/5y]

I heard that there is no open time at ASA since PBS!!!

Just like at CAL... No opentime unless someone calls in sick

 

[Nevets]

I'm sorry but, who wants to fly on their vacation?

Vacation is time off.

No one needs money that bad.

If you do go find a part time job!

Is this your argument to us as to why PBS is better? Why is it your business on what people do on their days off? The point is that circumstances may change! Don't be a hater just because someone wants to work.

Many people say that PBS allows more flexibility. I would agree that it allows more flexibility than what you guys had before but your PBS certainly does NOT more allow flexibility than what we have now.

 

[V1rowt8]

Agreed +1, The line bidding system simply gives the pilots more control over their schedule period. PBS relinquishes that control on many levels. It is the unions / companies job to construct productive lines. Does Southwest have PBS? Nope, and they seem to be doing fine.