Feb. PBS Bid Awards - ASA

[asayankee]

Im guessing the reason why some pilots are double dipping is to make up the concessions, down grades, lost days off, QOL, benefits to name a few that they were forced to take over the last decade. How is that greedy? When the airlines were making record profits did they come to the pilot groups and offer more pay? Nope. They just drag out CBA negotiations for as long as they can. How long did ASA pilots negotiate their last contract? The point is unfortunately the professional airline pilot has been conditioned to take care of numero uno when it comes to pay and QOL. Sorry if most pilots don't trust management to take care of their best interests.

Currently XJTrs have the option to either maximize their vacation or work a little more to make more on their vacation months. At least they have the option to do this. The ASA PBS system does not allow this to the best of my knowledge, if I am wrong I stand corrected.

The ASA system allows exactly that....

 

[Nevets]

So XJT guys exclaim so often that it is sooooo important to maximize their vacation time off, because the days off are so important, etc. In the next breath they claim how they want to be able to pick up more flying on their vacation days! Which is it? Seems like simple greed to me. Drop all my touching trip and make sure I get paid for the work I'm not doing - but, let me go ahead and double dip by then flying on those precious off days and get paid double. No, we're not losing any money!

That's the beauty of our system. You may want max days off on your vacation but circumstances may change where you need the extra money. You can pick up trips over those days off and it pays above guarantee. How does that cost the company any more. You either don't work and get paid your 75 hours or you work a trip(s) and get paid 75+the value of the trip you picked up.

You guys should educate yourself with our system just as we are with yours. You may find out it's better.

You are wrong and will be considered corrected.

The ASA system allows exactly that....

Your system allows you to pick up trips over vacation and pay on top of guarantee? Our scheduling committee chairman that is not the case with your PBS.

 

[OCP]

That's the beauty of our system. You may want max days off on your vacation but circumstances may change where you need the extra money. You can pick up trips over those days off and it pays above guarantee. How does that cost the company any more. You either don't work and get paid your 75 hours or you work a trip(s) and get paid 75+the value of the trip you picked up.

You guys should educate yourself with our system just as we are with yours. You may find out it's better.




Your system allows you to pick up trips over vacation and pay on top of guarantee? Our scheduling committee chairman that is not the case with your PBS.

No you can't work over your vacation, but you can minimize your vacation and make over 75hrs.

 

[Nevets]

No you can't work over your vacation, but you can minimize your vacation and make over 75hrs.

This is just ONE way our system has more flexibility. You may want to maximize vacation time when you bid but then can work over vacation if circumstances change. And the fact that there is some open time allows that flexibility. In fact, in our system you can bid around your vacation so there is no trip touching so you get your line value and the 24.75 hours vacation pay AND THEN work over that 7 days of vacation IF circumstances change and you need to or just simply want to.

How can anybody argue against that?

 

[dojetdriver]

There is no "tricking" the system. That is what people like you seem to be missing. Maximizing vacation was an important thing for us to not lose. That is why our system allows it and it is easy to do.

I'm not "missing" anything. I FULLY understand that the PBS system allows the maximization of vacation time.

The words "tricking the system" seem to be the term that even the ASA guys use to describe how they set up their preferences for max vacation time.

 

[701EV]

I'm sorry but, who wants to fly on their vacation?

Vacation is time off.

No one needs money that bad.

If you do go find a part time job!

 

[dojetdriver]

I'm sorry but, who wants to fly on their vacation?

Vacation is time off.

No one needs money that bad.

If you do go find a part time job!

The SAME guys that pick up open time on their days off.

 

[100/hour/5y]

I heard that there is no open time at ASA since PBS!!!

Just like at CAL... No opentime unless someone calls in sick

 

[Nevets]

I'm sorry but, who wants to fly on their vacation?

Vacation is time off.

No one needs money that bad.

If you do go find a part time job!

Is this your argument to us as to why PBS is better? Why is it your business on what people do on their days off? The point is that circumstances may change! Don't be a hater just because someone wants to work.

Many people say that PBS allows more flexibility. I would agree that it allows more flexibility than what you guys had before but your PBS certainly does NOT more allow flexibility than what we have now.

 

[V1rowt8]

Agreed +1, The line bidding system simply gives the pilots more control over their schedule period. PBS relinquishes that control on many levels. It is the unions / companies job to construct productive lines. Does Southwest have PBS? Nope, and they seem to be doing fine.

 

[OCP]

I heard that there is no open time at ASA since PBS!!!

Just like at CAL... No opentime unless someone calls in sick

No actually there is still open time, just a lot less. But the amount of trips that others want to drop portions of is pretty large.
The argument will never end you don't want PBS and we like our PBS system.
You want tons of open time so that when you get a crappy line you can trade out. We are trying to tell you that with the system (so far) you'll actually like the line you start with.
So far I really like the system. We still have quite a while before this section will get opened up in the JCBA. We have an opportunity to junk it totally (not likely) or tweak it to work even better.

I know XJT pilots who are against this want to think they hold all the cards on this, but the fact is Skywest spent a lot of time and money on this and are not likely to let it go very easily.

 

[OCP]

Agreed +1, The line bidding system simply gives the pilots more control over their schedule period. PBS relinquishes that control on many levels. It is the unions / companies job to construct productive lines. Does Southwest have PBS? Nope, and they seem to be doing fine.

Line bidding does in no way give you more control. Why would you think this? Name one level that PBS relinquishes control over your schedule? (besides having tons of open time) You have more choices for every aspect of the parings you are bidding on. Over 300 different things to choose from. I'm talking from a bidding perspective.
Delta does have PBS, and they seem to be doing fine...

 

[V1rowt8]

I'm sorry but, who wants to fly on their vacation?

Vacation is time off.

No one needs money that bad.

If you do go find a part time job!

Ok, at XJT two trips get dropped during vacation month due to conflict, a 7 day vacation period turns into 23 days off. He works a four day worth 21 hrs and a two day worth 12 hrs and is paid 75 hrs.

At ASA two trips drop, the pilot works a four day worth 21 hrs, a two day worth 12 hrs. If pay for a vacation day at ASA is 3.75 like XJT then the ASA pilots line value would be 60.25 hrs.

Which pilot has more pay for the month??

Multiply that times 4 vacation periods which equals 60 hrs a year. or 60 x $86.00 = $5160.00 pay difference using PBS vs line bidding.

Now if a XJT pilot chooses to pick up one four day per vacation month at 21 hrs which is added to his line value, he can add another $7224.00 per year. That is $12384.00 more than an ASA pilot could make with the PBS system. Junior pilots of course would make less but it is relative.

To summarize, Line bidding;

Don't work on vacation month, make an additional $5160.00 per year.

Work an additional 4 trips per year and earn a total of $12384.00.

PBS;

Lose $5160.00 Per year,

No option to pick up trips due to no open time and lose a total of $12384.00 per year.

 

[OCP]

Ok, at XJT two trips get dropped during vacation month due to conflict, a 7 day vacation period turns into 23 days off. He works a four day worth 21 hrs and a two day worth 12 hrs and is paid 75 hrs.

At ASA two trips drop, the pilot works a four day worth 21 hrs, a two day worth 12 hrs. If pay for a vacation day at ASA is 3.75 like XJT then the ASA pilots line value would be 60.25 hrs.

Which pilot has more pay for the month??

Multiply that times 4 vacation periods which equals 60 hrs a year. or 60 x $86.00 = $5160.00 pay difference using PBS vs line bidding.

Now if a XJT pilot chooses to pick up one four day per vacation month at 21 hrs which is added to his line value, he can add another $7224.00 per year. That is $12384.00 more than an ASA pilot could make with the PBS system. Junior pilots of course would make less but it is relative.

To summarize, Line bidding;

Don't work on vacation month, make an additional $5160.00 per year.

Work an additional 4 trips per year and earn a total of $12384.00.

PBS;

Lose $5160.00 Per year,

No option to pick up trips due to no open time and lose a total of $12384.00 per year.

That is not how it works at ASA though. We have two options for vacation bidding. High and Low. You want to max time off and still get 75 you bid high. You want more time and don't care about pay. Low.

You get 20+ days off and still get 75hrs. We get 20+ days off and still get 75 hrs.

 

[V1rowt8]

Ok thanks, that is not bad. 20 + days off with 75 hrs pay. What is pay on a vacation day?

What or who determines the amount of days off if you request max days off? Is this set in the CBA or can management change this at their discretion?

With max pay, what is your max pay for the month and what would be your min days off?

With the XJT CBA the pilots have control over their days off during vacation per their bidding preference.