Feb. PBS Bid Awards - ASA

[crj567]

He might be ohhhhh what is the phrase..............."cautiously optomistic"

I'm glad everybody is happy and busy counting all their chickens.

He, like others are not quite high-fiving yet. The company has a long history of tweaking EVERY agreement we have EVER had. I think everyone worked REAL HARD to make these pairings look good. Will they put this much effort into the following months?

Just consider, they might tweak PBS to get everybody on board. We'll all be so happy we'll do ANTYTHING to convince EXJET that PBS is awesome. They need us to be happy for the JCBA negotiations/vote. After the vote WHAM! Pappagiorgio gets ahold of it again. If you were MGMT isn't that what YOU would do?

OR it could be the company has had a change of heart and wants us to enjoy an improved QOL after slowly crushing it over the last 4 years.

Given the past performance, which do you see as more likely?

I promise if this system turns out to benefit EVERYBODY after the JCBA is voted in, and for the following several months, I will happily eat my words.

I just don't trust them.

Ditto, 100% ditto....

The best defense is a good offense, especially with this type of system. If the company can figure out a way to hose people, they will. Every time we have ever trusted our mgmt. (past or current,) to "play ball," they have wound up kicking our balls in. History should be our guide.

 

[damnflyboy]

He might be ohhhhh what is the phrase..............."cautiously optomistic"

I'm glad everybody is happy and busy counting all their chickens.

He, like others are not quite high-fiving yet. The company has a long history of tweaking EVERY agreement we have EVER had. I think everyone worked REAL HARD to make these pairings look good. Will they put this much effort into the following months?

Just consider, they might tweak PBS to get everybody on board. We'll all be so happy we'll do ANTYTHING to convince EXJET that PBS is awesome. They need us to be happy for the JCBA negotiations/vote. After the vote WHAM! Pappagiorgio gets ahold of it again. If you were MGMT isn't that what YOU would do?

OR it could be the company has had a change of heart and wants us to enjoy an improved QOL after slowly crushing it over the last 4 years.

Given the past performance, which do you see as more likely?

I promise if this system turns out to benefit EVERYBODY after the JCBA is voted in, and for the following several months, I will happily eat my words.

I just don't trust them.

Absolutely.

 

[Nevets]

Not exaggerating. Plus, there is no need to sell the XJT guys on PBS, because they're getting it anyway

Not if the JNC doesn't agree on it, or if the XJT MEC doesn't agree on the TA, or if the pilot group votes it down.

Just consider, they might tweak PBS to get everybody on board. We'll all be so happy we'll do ANTYTHING to convince EXJET that PBS is awesome. They need us to be happy for the JCBA negotiations/vote.

This has been my theory all along. It makes sense. Why wouldn't they do this?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Not if the JNC doesn't agree on it, or if the XJT MEC doesn't agree on the TA, or if the pilot group votes it down.

Then we can just stay separate as far as I'm concerned...that may be the best way to handle our differences...

 

[Nevets]

Then we can just stay separate as far as I'm concerned...that may be the best way to handle our differences...

Depending on what kind of PBS they want to shove down our throats, that may be fine with many at XJT. But i doubt Skywest is going to run us separate after what they told the investors about most cost savings are solely dependent on SOC.

 

[JumpersAway]

There is NO way they will run us seperate. The cost savings essentially come from cutting the leadership (administration) completely out of an airline and running it as a lean element of pilots and aircraft. It's INSTANT growth without management costs. Imagine XJT or ASA with not a single management or clerical figure- massive cash savings..........

Also, it isn't going to matter how we word the contract- there will ALWAYS be vagarities, interpretations, and loop holes. There are no legally air tight documents- just ask any attourney. Frankly, I'm glad we're implimenting PBS now, rather than later so we KNOW where the loop holes are, and we can fix them in short order durring the next JCBA. At least this way, we don't have to wait 3+ years before we have an opportunity to fix the problems. Not a single contract in any airline's history has been without flaw, but at least we know the exploits quick enough to fix them ahead of time, this time, to cut down on the issues.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Depending on what kind of PBS they want to shove down our throats, that may be fine with many at XJT. But i doubt Skywest is going to run us separate after what they told the investors about most cost savings are solely dependent on SOC.

You are acting like XJT pilots have all the leverage. What happens if you guys don't ratify a JCBA with PBS and we don't ratify JCBA without PBS?

 

[777forever]

You are acting like XJT pilots have all the leverage. What happens if you guys don't ratify a JCBA with PBS and we don't ratify JCBA without PBS?

Exactly. Absolutely no way will ASA pilots want to go back to line bidding after getting a taste of PBS

 

[79%N1]

What cracks me up is the XJT seem to think they are going to send their guys into the JCBA negotiations with a list of demands that they are going to get. It's like they think this is a hostage negotiation. We demand this, this and this!!!! Or else we'll hold this whole thing up. We demand our bidding, our scheduling, our reserve system and oh yea, 25% pay raises --- OR ELSE!!!!

Sorry, it won't work that way.

 

[Nevets]

You are acting like XJT pilots have all the leverage. What happens if you guys don't ratify a JCBA with PBS and we don't ratify JCBA without PBS?

We remain separate until we have a JCBA and SLI.

Exactly. Absolutely no way will ASA pilots want to go back to line bidding after getting a taste of PBS

Has it ever occured to you guys that you might actually like our line bidding system better than your PBS?

What cracks me up is the XJT seem to think they are going to send their guys into the JCBA negotiations with a list of demands that they are going to get. It's like they think this is a hostage negotiation. We demand this, this and this!!!! Or else we'll hold this whole thing up. We demand our bidding, our scheduling, our reserve system and oh yea, 25% pay raises --- OR ELSE!!!!

Sorry, it won't work that way.

How will it work? Because, personally for me, I don't mind keeping the contract we have now than to agree to any concession. Management is the one who bought us and said they were going to save $70M after SOC so now they have to deal with us. But that's just me.

 

[crj567]

What cracks me up is the XJT seem to think they are going to send their guys into the JCBA negotiations with a list of demands that they are going to get. It's like they think this is a hostage negotiation. We demand this, this and this!!!! Or else we'll hold this whole thing up. We demand our bidding, our scheduling, our reserve system and oh yea, 25% pay raises --- OR ELSE!!!!

Sorry, it won't work that way.

They seem to have done something right at some point. Their contract is sure as hell a lot better than ours.

 

[777forever]

Has it ever occured to you guys that you might actually like our line bidding system better than your PBS?

Doesn't matter. In this ultra competitive fee for departure world line bidding is highly inefficient. Especially with you guys having 6 days of integration.

XJT was unprofitable and now ASA is unprofitable. We need to get systems in place that increase efficiency without degrading pilot QOL. ASA's PBS is the 1st step. Next up, DUAL QUAL!

 

[DGdaPilot]

He might be ohhhhh what is the phrase..............."cautiously optomistic"

I'm glad everybody is happy and busy counting all their chickens.

He, like others are not quite high-fiving yet. The company has a long history of tweaking EVERY agreement we have EVER had. I think everyone worked REAL HARD to make these pairings look good. Will they put this much effort into the following months?

Just consider, they might tweak PBS to get everybody on board. We'll all be so happy we'll do ANTYTHING to convince EXJET that PBS is awesome. They need us to be happy for the JCBA negotiations/vote. After the vote WHAM! Pappagiorgio gets ahold of it again. If you were MGMT isn't that what YOU would do?

OR it could be the company has had a change of heart and wants us to enjoy an improved QOL after slowly crushing it over the last 4 years.

Given the past performance, which do you see as more likely?

I promise if this system turns out to benefit EVERYBODY after the JCBA is voted in, and for the following several months, I will happily eat my words.

I just don't trust them.

That is the nature of the RLA. The company finds loopholes. The union finds loopholes. Grievances are filed. In the same vein as your post, I'll make the following prediction:

Someday the world will end!!!! That's right, you heard it here first folks. I told ya all!

 

[crj567]

Doesn't matter. In this ultra competitive fee for departure world line bidding is highly inefficient. Especially with you guys having 6 days of integration.

XJT was unprofitable and now ASA is unprofitable. We need to get systems in place that increase efficiency without degrading pilot QOL. ASA's PBS is the 1st step. Next up, DUAL QUAL!

Has anyone here thought about Dual Qual? I mean really?

Since many people seem to have trouble with the whole thinking thing, I will help:

-If we are dual qual, we will have an override for pay. In other words, we will get paid a little more for time we actually spend flying the 70/90. BUT-what do you think vacation, sick time, and all the other credits will be paid at?!?

-For those on the 50, this may seem like a raise. For anyone fortunate enough to be on the 70, it clearly would be a significant pay cut. No longer would any of us get paid 70 rates for vacation, sick time, or any such other credit. Every credit you can think of would snap back to 50 rates-count on it.

So many of our pilots can't see past their own noses. It is truly a shame that we don't have the people around here that we had just 5 years ago. None of this crap would have slid by, we had people who were willing and able to think these things through.

(But let's not forget-we have to become the next Mesa to stay in business.)
(And whatever line of weak-ass horse******************** mgmt. is selling next week.)

 

[JoeMerchant]

We remain separate until we have a JCBA and SLI.

Then we will stay separate until you guys decide that PBS works for you...The majority of ASA pilots won't approve a JCBA that doesn't have PBS...If that's what you guys want, that is your choice...

Has it ever occured to you guys that you might actually like our line bidding system better than your PBS?

Has it ever occured to you guys that you might actually like our PBS? Has it ever occured to you that we do have to remain competitive and this was a way to do it AND added benefits to the pilots at the same time?

How will it work? Because, personally for me, I don't mind keeping the contract we have now than to agree to any concession. Management is the one who bought us and said they were going to save $70M after SOC so now they have to deal with us. But that's just me.

One thing I've learned about Jerry is that he generally gets what he wants or he walks away from the deal...You can pick this fight, but here are his loyalities in this order now...
1. Skywest
2. ASA
3. XJT
The majority of us at ASA have learned to work with Jerry...Go ahead and try it your way...

 

[79%N1]

and then Jerry will Whipsaw the XJT guys by moving flying to ASA or Skywest. Not saying I like that, or approve of it. But that IS what he will do.

 

[777forever]

Has anyone here thought about Dual Qual? I mean really?

Since many people seem to have trouble with the whole thinking thing, I will help:

-If we are dual qual, we will have an override for pay. In other words, we will get paid a little more for time we actually spend flying the 70/90. BUT-what do you think vacation, sick time, and all the other credits will be paid at?!?

-For those on the 50, this may seem like a raise. For anyone fortunate enough to be on the 70, it clearly would be a significant pay cut. No longer would any of us get paid 70 rates for vacation, sick time, or any such other credit. Every credit you can think of would snap back to 50 rates-count on it.

So many of our pilots can't see past their own noses. It is truly a shame that we don't have the people around here that we had just 5 years ago. None of this crap would have slid by, we had people who were willing and able to think these things through.

(But let's not forget-we have to become the next Mesa to stay in business.)
(And whatever line of weak-ass horse******************** mgmt. is selling next week.)

I see where you are coming from. You should see my friends on the 700 eyes light up with fear when I mention dual qual for the first time. Just like many pilots wrongfully assume all PBS systems are the same, they also assume all dual qual is the same.

Dual Qual will not be accepted by this pilot group unless it involves pay and qol increases for all pilots. This imho will require not an override, but a blended payrate for all that is higher than current 700/900 pay. Afterall all pilot will be responsible for more material.

Like PBS, if Dual Qual helps the company save money and gives the pilots better pay and qol, it would be foolish to not consider it.

 

[crj567]

I see where you are coming from. You should see my friends on the 700 eyes light up with fear when I mention dual qual for the first time. Just like many pilots wrongfully assume all PBS systems are the same, they also assume all dual qual is the same.

Dual Qual will not be accepted by this pilot group unless it involves pay and qol increases for all pilots. This imho will require not an override, but a blended payrate for all that is higher than current 700/900 pay. Afterall all pilot will be responsible for more material.

Like PBS, if Dual Qual helps the company save money and gives the pilots better pay and qol, it would be foolish to not consider it.

Good thoughts. Maybe we can shoot for something like this. I like the basic idea, I just don't want everyone on the 700 to get their poopers stretched.

 

[centralpilot]

-If we are dual qual, we will have an override for pay. In other words, we will get paid a little more for time we actually spend flying the 70/90. BUT-what do you think vacation, sick time, and all the other credits will be paid at?!?

Dual Qual under these conditions is simply unacceptable. The SKWY override model is a concession in no uncertain terms. If Dual Qual is to be even remotely considered, it will have to be under much better terms.

 

[asa rat]

So combining XJT and ASA will yield savings but St George wants their cake while eating it too by keeping SKW separate. Tell me again why I have to be interested in dual qual?