Feb. PBS Bid Awards - ASA

[dojetdriver]

How many pilots are based in IAH? How many hard lines does that produce?
In ATL we have approx 440 pilots (each CA and FO) on the 200 which when we had hard lines was giving us under 300 lines.

IAH CA's for Jan 506 pilots bidding, 313 hardlines, 57 relief lines awarded
IAH CA's for Feb 498 pilots bidding, 307 hardlines, 74 relief lines awarded.

It doesn't matter what ASA pilots learn. What matters is what is negotiated with management in the JCBA. Think of it like this. ASA management is GOING TO BE HELLBENT on keeping ASA. That gives us 4000+ pilots with leverage to tweak this system. We can get even more vacation credit, more credit for training, more pay, etc... by tweaking this system. To ditch PBS and go with XJT's system us pilots would most certainly need to GIVE UP elsewhere to effectively "buy back" your system. That is how all negotiations work! Not to mention, If ASA management okay's line bidding it may also not include your exotic LIW's you use. That is a far less level of control than they have historically ever given up. They are notorious for wanting less flexibility for the pilots. Everything costs something, or we can use our leverage to get what we want.

And accepting the current ASA PBS system will be a concession for the majority of the pilots on the combined list. Sorry buddy, our scheduling chair has seem your PBS system live and in action. It simply won't work with XJT's current scheduling language. It's apples to bowling balls. Why should the majority of the pilots on the new list get their SECOND concession rammed down their throats?

The XJT line bidding system has excellent vacation flexibility, but I wouldn't agree that line bidding gives you more control in all cases. Vacation rules notwithstanding, line bidding's weakness is that the company builds the lines. What if you want to work 3-days only but the company has built a bunch of lines with 3-days followed by day lines? Those 3-day pairings are held hostage in bad schedules. What if you want to work Monday start 4-days, but need a Wednesday off in the 3rd week? There aren't many company built lines that will accomplish this. What if you want to work pairings with a particular overnight every week? Suitable pairings may be scattered among many different lines. What if you want commutable trips, but the company built lines with commutable pairings scattered among non-commutable ones? What if you are junior and need certain days off in the first 3 days of the month (or 6 in XJT's case). Good luck with line integration, but PBS gives you a fighting chance. Yes, open-time (ILIW, etc) can help in some of those cases, but it is not guaranteed.

Come on, we all read the SAME stuff man. The flip side of the coin to ALL your points above has been discussed ad nauseam else where. I don't have the patience to type if out for a 10th time.

As far as your last statement goes, if ASA decides to build crap pairings and only a minority of the pilots get their preferences met, what recourse is there to improve the award? Little, if any at all due to the lack of open time with a PBS system. XJT's system has ALWAYS allowed pilots to improve a crappy line.

The vacation work rules we negotiated are showing good early results for vacation extension. I believe they are a clear improvement over ASA's previous vacation situation. It is NOT a clear improvement over the XJT system, so on this point it is a much tougher sell. However, I think if we can negotiate comparable work rules we can have the most flexible system possible.

In any event, there are advantages and disadvantages to either system. What really matters isn't XJT current book vs ASA current book. What matters is new TA vs XJT/ASA current book. If the eventual TA, as a total package, doesn't represent an improvement, then vote no!

See the above, the current ASA PBS system simply will not work with XJT's current workrules. 1 of 2 things has to happen, XJT takes it in the butt with a major concession to get the current ASA PBS to work, or the PBS system has to be completely revamped so the majority of the pilots on the combined list DON'T take it in the but with ANOTHER concession.

 

[79%N1]

"Sorry buddy, our scheduling chair has seem your PBS system live and in action. It simply won't work with XJT's current scheduling language"


Except that THERE IS GOING TO BE NO XJT WORK RULES OR SCHEDULING LANGUAGE!!!!

Whatever comes out of the JCBA is going to be a whole new thing. Its not like the XJT work rules are going to be verbatim what ends up in the JCBA. Things will be different - for each side! You will gain in some areas, lose in others.......that is how these things work. Your agreement has expired, as has ASA. They are working on a new one, and combining the two contracts. Management is going to have to conceed in some areas, and others they won't. What comes out of this will look different to what XJT's current scheduling rules are.

 

[centralpilot]

In essence, if you don't like the line you were awarded, you can build your own line during the ILIW.

I'm not sure how many times it has to be explained.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I understand. ILIW is a much improved version of the line completion/initial open time we had with line bidding. Your point about post-award flexibility is valid. I still think PBS allows more flexibility in the initial creation of a schedule, but XJT's system is much better after that. Ideally I'd like the best of both worlds, but it'll take someone smarter than me to figure out a way for that to work.

Also, it would be nice if ASA guys would educate themselves in our line bidding system just as we are learning about your PBS. You will probably like it better than your PBS.

Again, I can't speak for anyone else, but I've been reading through the XJT contract sections when able. There is a great deal in the scheduling section that is better than what ASA has now.

Sorry buddy, our scheduling chair has seem your PBS system live and in action. It simply won't work with XJT's current scheduling language. It's apples to bowling balls.

Agreed. Of course the PBS system can't be wedged into work rules crafted for line bidding. They are incompatible, but that doesn't mean work rules couldn't be crafted to accomplish the same goals. It's all about the work rules. ASA's PBS work rules are better than our previous line bidding work rules. XJT's current line bidding work rules are better than ASA's current PBS work rules. It is possible that work rules for a joint contract with PBS could be crafted to be even better. Why try if the current XJT system is the best one on the table? The negotiating costs of preserving a line bidding system may be too high. We aren't just choosing among ourselves what system we want; the company has to sign the contract too. Clearly the JNC will have to decide what to strive for in the context of the overall contract negotiations.

1 of 2 things has to happen, XJT takes it in the butt with a major concession to get the current ASA PBS to work, or the PBS system has to be completely revamped so the majority of the pilots on the combined list DON'T take it in the but with ANOTHER concession.

Option 1 is obviously not an option. If better work rules are the only way to make PBS feasible, then that is what the company will have to agree to or they can't expect to get enough yes votes. Either that or they concede to a suitable line bidding system. So long as the work rules are strong and provide good QOL, I don't much care what the underlying bidding system is. As I said before, pitting our current contracts against each other is rather pointless. If the new TA isn't acceptable, vote no!

 

[dojetdriver]

Except that THERE IS GOING TO BE NO XJT WORK RULES OR SCHEDULING LANGUAGE!!!![/quote}

Really? You're on the JNC? You pick up the phone and out in a call to Miss Cleo on the psychic hotline and know that NONE of XJT's workrules are going to carry over?

Whatever comes out of the JCBA is going to be a whole new thing. Its not like the XJT work rules are going to be verbatim what ends up in the JCBA. Things will be different - for each side! You will gain in some areas, lose in others.......that is how these things work. Your agreement has expired, as has ASA. They are working on a new one, and combining the two contracts. Management is going to have to conceed in some areas, and others they won't. What comes out of this will look different to what XJT's current scheduling rules are.

I asked you SPECIFICALLY in another thread, you failed to answer. How many concession cycles you been through so far? I got 2, Nevets has one, and EVERY XJT pilot has at least 1. Sorry, but many of us can't see giving up anything more. Especially that now we supposedly have a management team that "knows what they're doing" as well as "knows how to make money"

Again, I can't speak for anyone else, but I've been reading through the XJT contract sections when able. There is a great deal in the scheduling section that is better than what ASA has now.

I'm glad one of you guys has taken it upon yourself to do so. There are 3 or 4 things I things I found in the ASA contract that are better than the XJT one. However, one of those is a bit of a wash. The language is good on it, but it still sucks. Specifically, you guys get 9 hours "rest" on an unscheduled overnight in domicile, correct? Heres the wash, we get 8. But we get provided a hotel room on that unscheduled in domicile overnight, does ASA?

Agreed. Of course the PBS system can't be wedged into work rules crafted for line bidding. They are incompatible, but that doesn't mean work rules couldn't be crafted to accomplish the same goals. It's all about the work rules. ASA's PBS work rules are better than our previous line bidding work rules. XJT's current line bidding work rules are better than ASA's current PBS work rules. It is possible that work rules for a joint contract with PBS could be crafted to be even better. Why try if the current XJT system is the best one on the table? The negotiating costs of preserving a line bidding system may be too high. We aren't just choosing among ourselves what system we want; the company has to sign the contract too. Clearly the JNC will have to decide what to strive for in the context of the overall contract negotiations.

Agree with all this. But see above, how many guys are willing to take ANOTHER concession? As well as the pilots hold a slight bit of leverage here. Jerry wants this thing done ASAP to start seeing the 70 million dollar (or however much) savings of reducing the redundancies. Sure, he can try to cram something down our throats. If it's a crap sandwich, send it back. That's just longer he keeps losing money by having the two separate/redundant operations.

Option 1 is obviously not an option. If better work rules are the only way to make PBS feasible, then that is what the company will have to agree to or they can't expect to get enough yes votes. Either that or they concede to a suitable line bidding system. So long as the work rules are strong and provide good QOL, I don't much care what the underlying bidding system is. As I said before, pitting our current contracts against each other is rather pointless. If the new TA isn't acceptable, vote no!

Agree, 1 is not an option. But reading what some other guys think, they seem to think it is. Trust me, if anything is the new TA is a concession, it'll be just as you say.

 

[701EV]

Is this your argument to us as to why PBS is better? Why is it your business on what people do on their days off? The point is that circumstances may change! Don't be a hater just because someone wants to work.

Many people say that PBS allows more flexibility. I would agree that it allows more flexibility than what you guys had before but your PBS certainly does NOT more allow flexibility than what we have now.

Nevets,

No this is not my argument to use PBS.

I'm saying who the hell wants to work while your on vacation! Vacation is when you don't work. You get paid for not working! Now if you want to pick up something in the days that touch your vacation I guess thats ok. But I thought we talking about how our PBS will not maximize your vacation because yours is so great?

 

[dojetdriver]

I'm saying who the hell wants to work while your on vacation! Vacation is when you don't work. You get paid for not working! Now if you want to pick up something in the days that touch your vacation I guess thats ok. But I thought we talking about how our PBS will not maximize your vacation because yours is so great?

True, who the hell want's to work during their vacation? By that logic, who the hell wants to work during their 2, 3, or 4 days off as well?

I don't, I like my time off too much. But does that mean that guys should be denied the right to do with their time as they see fit? Especially if it means making more money?

Now that statement about getting "paid for not working". The think is, under the XJT CBA, if a pilot works during his vacation, he's getting paid TWICE. It's no secret, and guy can easily bank 120+ hours in a month by doing so.

 

[Speedtape]

"Sorry buddy, our scheduling chair has seem your PBS system live and in action. It simply won't work with XJT's current scheduling language"


Except that THERE IS GOING TO BE NO XJT WORK RULES OR SCHEDULING LANGUAGE!!!!

Whatever comes out of the JCBA is going to be a whole new thing. Its not like the XJT work rules are going to be verbatim what ends up in the JCBA. Things will be different - for each side! You will gain in some areas, lose in others.......that is how these things work. Your agreement has expired, as has ASA. They are working on a new one, and combining the two contracts. Management is going to have to conceed in some areas, and others they won't. What comes out of this will look different to what XJT's current scheduling rules are.

Good explanation! He doesn't get it yet!

 

[Nevets]

Nevets,

No this is not my argument to use PBS.

I'm saying who the hell wants to work while your on vacation! Vacation is when you don't work. You get paid for not working! Now if you want to pick up something in the days that touch your vacation I guess thats ok. But I thought we talking about how our PBS will not maximize your vacation because yours is so great?

We were! So why the hell did you bring up working during vacation if it's "ok" to do so? What does people wanting to work during vacation have to with maximizing days off?

 

[Speedtape]

Let me be clear, this job is not my life! I will simply go do something else. I will be just fine.



That was a response to someone saying ASA is now unprofitable. Last I checked, Inc makes money. Fact as I already stated is that we make money for one CEO, one BOD, and one set of shareholders. I know how they make a profit, that was not in question. RTFP



What I meant is that our compensation on our ERJ is almost what you get on the 900, so any raise on the ERJ would mean an automatic raise on all your aircraft. Therefore I can see a blended rate and that would be more reason for dual qual.
I say, make the airplane higher paid. That is what the fleet will be in a couple of years--our fleet! Why create a b scale, think long term.



Like I said already, I will be fine whatever happens. I will go do something else. My life is not this job. I already took concessions and I rather not do it again, even if it means I lose my job.
Sorry pardner, I don't think you really know/mean what you are saying. When you weigh what you do against most "something elses," you will still be doing what your are doing, unless you live by principle alone. Don't fall on that sword, I can assure you, that being out of a job is not an option! Please use good reasoning, I know you can!



He seems to need us more than we do him. He has been the one who constantly has been trying to get into CALs bed. Which part of our agreement have you read? Can you tell me about the phase 1, phase 2, ILIW, SLIW, etc? The choice is pay up or keep us separate. I have absolutely NO PROBLEM whatsoever with being separate. I do not want to come down to the level of Skywest airlines. I want to bring them and you up to ours! My unions job is not to worry about shrinking airlines. That is managements job. If they want to make our airline bigger, they can easily combine us with another airline with over 200 aircraft already to go.
You need to do further analysis. Your pay rate may be the only way you get paid, but it is not the only way we get paid. We have cancellation pay, min day, duty rig, guaranteed leg or better pay, and a performance bonus that in its short history has paid well on a quarterly basis. At the end of the year, if I took my gross income from these ASA "haves" and divided it by the number of hours I have flown, it would blow your "rate on paper" out of the water!!!!! KABOOM! Compare apples to apples.




They wanted to operate 3 separate airlines and implement 16% concessions. Now they conceded at least merging us with ASA and having to negotiate a joint contract under section 6. HUGE concessions from what they originally wanted.
Concessions? I don't thing so. They waited, and got the deal on their terms. Your company would not have lasted another 90 days from some of the analysts reports I have read. The first thing I want to share with you that all of us have learned, our Parent Company is shrewd. They only make decisions when the deal is right--Why? Because they can, and they know how to parlay opportunities into guaranteed money making ventures. They would succeed in any industry, because they have a proven business model. They just happen to be in the regional airline industry. I would submit, if they can make it here, they can make it anywhere. Your job and longterm benefits are safe on this team, if you care to play ball on the same team.



Fair enough, although I think that the failure of that section of our contract had more to do with the resolve of our MEC than the language in the contract.

According to all the legal minds, that section of your contract did not apply to you being purchased. Your MEC came to that realization and made the right decisions, and so did the majority of your pilot group. Even if it had bound the purchaser, he gave you a choice. He would not fight the legal battle, he would just pull back and let you spiral to the ground. If you have not come to a clear understanding of this by this point, then you are in denial and further discussion is futile. Under the circumstances, that part of your contract was worthless. Maybe we can all learn from that, and make sure we have protection in the future through language that addresses our possible acquisition.

Cheers!

 

[dojetdriver]

According to all the legal minds, that section of your contract did not apply to you being purchased. Your MEC came to that realization and made the right decisions, and so did the majority of your pilot group..........

Right there is where I had to stop reading. You really are not that educated on what really went on there, are you?

 

[Speedtape]

Right there is where I had to stop reading. You really are not that educated on what really went on there, are you?

I know exactly what went on. Maybe, you should open your eyes. If you have different information, then state it. I will rebut it with the facts. Maybe, you really don't know?

 

[Speedtape]

IAH CA's for Jan 506 pilots bidding, 313 hardlines, 57 relief lines awarded
IAH CA's for Feb 498 pilots bidding, 307 hardlines, 74 relief lines awarded.
That totals 380 hard lines and 126 Reserves under your Line Bidding.
With our PBS you could have had 450 hard lines, and 56 reserves. Even our most junior lines had good 4 day pairings and about 14 days off.
That's a no brainer.


And accepting the current ASA PBS system will be a concession for the majority of the pilots on the combined list. Sorry buddy, our scheduling chair has seem your PBS system live and in action. It simply won't work with XJT's current scheduling language. It's apples to bowling balls. Why should the majority of the pilots on the new list get their SECOND concession rammed down their throats?
Um, if you are going to put it in those "second concession" arguments, maybe because it's better than being out of a job. You really don't have the leverage that you think you do. Ask any Delta pilot. Any Future contract will have PBS. How you want to frame up the collateral consequences is your choice. Consider the ultimate concession had you not been purchased! Being out of a job and applying for one at ASA instead of finding a contractual solution. Being out a job is still a possiblity. I can assure you that ASA pilots will not take that dive with you! We don't have to!



Come on, we all read the SAME stuff man. The flip side of the coin to ALL your points above has been discussed ad nauseam else where. I don't have the patience to type if out for a 10th time.
You need a good dose of reality. You have been purchased. You don't have leaverage. This is not a land grab. You did that once with a Management that couldn't run a lemonade stand. It want work with your new owners.

As far as your last statement goes, if ASA decides to build crap pairings and only a minority of the pilots get their preferences met, what recourse is there to improve the award? Little, if any at all due to the lack of open time with a PBS system. XJT's system has ALWAYS allowed pilots to improve a crappy line.
Bid it right with PBS the first time, and you don't need to improve it. In the PBS world, any Open Time is the crap no one else wanted. So, the less of it the better.



See the above, the current ASA PBS system simply will not work with XJT's current workrules. 1 of 2 things has to happen, XJT takes it in the butt with a major concession to get the current ASA PBS to work, or the PBS system has to be completely revamped so the majority of the pilots on the combined list DON'T take it in the but with ANOTHER concession.

Disregard the above, and read the following: YOUR current work rules will not work with PBS. One thing will hapen, PBS will survive! The rest will either fall out or adapt to PBS.

Are you a chest thumper?

 

[Nevets]

What I meant is that our compensation on our ERJ is almost what you get on the 900, so any raise on the ERJ would mean an automatic raise on all your aircraft. Therefore I can see a blended rate and that would be more reason for dual qual.
I say, make the airplane higher paid. That is what the fleet will be in a couple of years--our fleet! Why create a b scale, think long term.

Yup, I agree with you 100% there. Our ERJ rate is within $1 of your 900 rate (taking into consideration those work rules you mentioned like our B fund). So if you give the ERJ ANY kind of a pay rate increase, it will surpass your 900 rate. Thus I see a blended rate being a possibility.

Like I said already, I will be fine whatever happens. I will go do something else. My life is not this job. I already took concessions and I rather not do it again, even if it means I lose my job.
Sorry pardner, I don't think you really know/mean what you are saying. When you weigh what you do against most "something elses," you will still be doing what your are doing, unless you live by principle alone. Don't fall on that sword, I can assure you, that being out of a job is not an option! Please use good reasoning, I know you can!

As if you know anything about me. I have a back up plan and even if I didn't, life will not end if XJT goes out of business. I will be fine no matter what happens. I have a support network if I need to use it.

He seems to need us more than we do him. He has been the one who constantly has been trying to get into CALs bed. Which part of our agreement have you read? Can you tell me about the phase 1, phase 2, ILIW, SLIW, etc? The choice is pay up or keep us separate. I have absolutely NO PROBLEM whatsoever with being separate. I do not want to come down to the level of Skywest airlines. I want to bring them and you up to ours! My unions job is not to worry about shrinking airlines. That is managements job. If they want to make our airline bigger, they can easily combine us with another airline with over 200 aircraft already to go.
You need to do further analysis. Your pay rate may be the only way you get paid, but it is not the only way we get paid. We have cancellation pay, min day, duty rig, guaranteed leg or better pay, and a performance bonus that in its short history has paid well on a quarterly basis. At the end of the year, if I took my gross income from these ASA "haves" and divided it by the number of hours I have flown, it would blow your "rate on paper" out of the water!!!!! KABOOM! Compare apples to apples.

Yup, I know all about that! Just ask Dojet. We have a superior contract and I know about soft time very well. We have ALL of what you just stated and more.

I actually just recently did the math. My total compensation , I come up with an adjusted hourly rate of $55.57. And when I include the 77% the company pays for on my medical and dental insurance, the adjusted pay rate goes up to $77.41. And when if you want to throw in perdiem, its $83.76. My contractual pay rate is $41.25/hr. That's over half my pay in everything else other than my pay rate.

They wanted to operate 3 separate airlines and implement 16% concessions. Now they conceded at least merging us with ASA and having to negotiate a joint contract under section 6. HUGE concessions from what they originally wanted.
Concessions? I don't thing so. They waited, and got the deal on their terms. Your company would not have lasted another 90 days from some of the analysts reports I have read. The first thing I want to share with you that all of us have learned, our Parent Company is shrewd. They only make decisions when the deal is right--Why? Because they can, and they know how to parlay opportunities into guaranteed money making ventures. They would succeed in any industry, because they have a proven business model. They just happen to be in the regional airline industry. I would submit, if they can make it here, they can make it anywhere. Your job and longterm benefits are safe on this team, if you care to play ball on the same team.

Yup, I agree. They are shrewd. That is why they tried the first time. They had nothing to lose and everything to gain. And in the process, decimated our CPA, caused us to lose money, and employees to vote for concessions. But they knew we would walk away from the same deal again. Which is why they conceded to merge us with ASA instead of keeping us separate because you know very well if they could, they would operate us all separate. They have also conceded on trying to ram pay cuts on us like they did the first time they wanted 16% concession. Now, they know they will have to make our contract better if they want to see their "guaranteed money making venture" suceed. That is called concessions on their part. And its really shrewd on their part to give just enough to convince our MEC.

Fair enough, although I think that the failure of that section of our contract had more to do with the resolve of our MEC than the language in the contract.

According to all the legal minds, that section of your contract did not apply to you being purchased. Your MEC came to that realization and made the right decisions, and so did the majority of your pilot group. Even if it had bound the purchaser, he gave you a choice. He would not fight the legal battle, he would just pull back and let you spiral to the ground. If you have not come to a clear understanding of this by this point, then you are in denial and further discussion is futile. Under the circumstances, that part of your contract was worthless. Maybe we can all learn from that, and make sure we have protection in the future through language that addresses our possible acquisition.

Cheers!

The only legal mind that mattered was an arbitrator, which it never got to because, like you said, they are shrewd and our MEC rolled over. I would be happy if our pilot group even got a vote, so no, it cannot be said the majority of our pilot group agree to this. And if he would to walk away, which I highly doubt, someone else would have bought is. Which is why I doubt he would have walked away. We were too good of a deal for someone not to buy us. That part of the contract was made worthless because our MEC made a strategic decision not defend it. But its ironic that its incorporated into the newly TAd Scope LOA.

 

[dojetdriver]

I know exactly what went on. Maybe, you should open your eyes. If you have different information, then state it. I will rebut it with the facts. Maybe, you really don't know?

Disregard the above, and read the following: YOUR current work rules will not work with PBS. One thing will hapen, PBS will survive! The rest will either fall out or adapt to PBS.

Are you a chest thumper?

Wow.....just, wow.

I feel so much better moving forward with all the well informed ASA pilots. This whole JCBA/SLI is gonna be great with minds like yours involved.

 

[Nevets]

Disregard the above, and read the following: YOUR current work rules will not work with PBS. One thing will hapen, PBS will survive! The rest will either fall out or adapt to PBS.

You are right. Our current work rules do not work with your current PBS setup because it would be a huge concession. I'm not against PBS now that its been shown that you can maximize vacation. I never pick up trips over vacation or pick up at all for that matter so that was never MY concern with the lack of open time. But whatever happens, it will NOT be a concession to the majority of the pilots on the ISL.