Feb. PBS Bid Awards - ASA

[OCP]

I heard that there is no open time at ASA since PBS!!!

Just like at CAL... No opentime unless someone calls in sick

No actually there is still open time, just a lot less. But the amount of trips that others want to drop portions of is pretty large.
The argument will never end you don't want PBS and we like our PBS system.
You want tons of open time so that when you get a crappy line you can trade out. We are trying to tell you that with the system (so far) you'll actually like the line you start with.
So far I really like the system. We still have quite a while before this section will get opened up in the JCBA. We have an opportunity to junk it totally (not likely) or tweak it to work even better.

I know XJT pilots who are against this want to think they hold all the cards on this, but the fact is Skywest spent a lot of time and money on this and are not likely to let it go very easily.

 

[OCP]

Agreed +1, The line bidding system simply gives the pilots more control over their schedule period. PBS relinquishes that control on many levels. It is the unions / companies job to construct productive lines. Does Southwest have PBS? Nope, and they seem to be doing fine.

Line bidding does in no way give you more control. Why would you think this? Name one level that PBS relinquishes control over your schedule? (besides having tons of open time) You have more choices for every aspect of the parings you are bidding on. Over 300 different things to choose from. I'm talking from a bidding perspective.
Delta does have PBS, and they seem to be doing fine...

 

[V1rowt8]

I'm sorry but, who wants to fly on their vacation?

Vacation is time off.

No one needs money that bad.

If you do go find a part time job!

Ok, at XJT two trips get dropped during vacation month due to conflict, a 7 day vacation period turns into 23 days off. He works a four day worth 21 hrs and a two day worth 12 hrs and is paid 75 hrs.

At ASA two trips drop, the pilot works a four day worth 21 hrs, a two day worth 12 hrs. If pay for a vacation day at ASA is 3.75 like XJT then the ASA pilots line value would be 60.25 hrs.

Which pilot has more pay for the month??

Multiply that times 4 vacation periods which equals 60 hrs a year. or 60 x $86.00 = $5160.00 pay difference using PBS vs line bidding.

Now if a XJT pilot chooses to pick up one four day per vacation month at 21 hrs which is added to his line value, he can add another $7224.00 per year. That is $12384.00 more than an ASA pilot could make with the PBS system. Junior pilots of course would make less but it is relative.

To summarize, Line bidding;

Don't work on vacation month, make an additional $5160.00 per year.

Work an additional 4 trips per year and earn a total of $12384.00.

PBS;

Lose $5160.00 Per year,

No option to pick up trips due to no open time and lose a total of $12384.00 per year.

 

[OCP]

Ok, at XJT two trips get dropped during vacation month due to conflict, a 7 day vacation period turns into 23 days off. He works a four day worth 21 hrs and a two day worth 12 hrs and is paid 75 hrs.

At ASA two trips drop, the pilot works a four day worth 21 hrs, a two day worth 12 hrs. If pay for a vacation day at ASA is 3.75 like XJT then the ASA pilots line value would be 60.25 hrs.

Which pilot has more pay for the month??

Multiply that times 4 vacation periods which equals 60 hrs a year. or 60 x $86.00 = $5160.00 pay difference using PBS vs line bidding.

Now if a XJT pilot chooses to pick up one four day per vacation month at 21 hrs which is added to his line value, he can add another $7224.00 per year. That is $12384.00 more than an ASA pilot could make with the PBS system. Junior pilots of course would make less but it is relative.

To summarize, Line bidding;

Don't work on vacation month, make an additional $5160.00 per year.

Work an additional 4 trips per year and earn a total of $12384.00.

PBS;

Lose $5160.00 Per year,

No option to pick up trips due to no open time and lose a total of $12384.00 per year.

That is not how it works at ASA though. We have two options for vacation bidding. High and Low. You want to max time off and still get 75 you bid high. You want more time and don't care about pay. Low.

You get 20+ days off and still get 75hrs. We get 20+ days off and still get 75 hrs.

 

[V1rowt8]

Ok thanks, that is not bad. 20 + days off with 75 hrs pay. What is pay on a vacation day?

What or who determines the amount of days off if you request max days off? Is this set in the CBA or can management change this at their discretion?

With max pay, what is your max pay for the month and what would be your min days off?

With the XJT CBA the pilots have control over their days off during vacation per their bidding preference.

 

[Medeco]

I have 1 week vacation and RGT in Feb.

In the award I ended up with 20 days off, and 12 of them consecutive, and 73hrs credit paid to 75 because I met the credit window.

I have picked up portions of trips from other line holders that posted in opentime, and now have 16 days off and 92hrs of credit.

We are not even in the 1st day of the month of Feb.

I chose to reduce my total days off because I have been on reserve for 3.5yrs since upgrading amd rarely breaking 75hrs over the 3.5yrs.

Had I chose to remain at 75hrs and 20 days total I had the chance to move my trips and add consecutive days off, as it stands today I still have 12 days consecutive 16 total and 92hrs of credit. I'll be sure to tell you at the end of Feb. what my total credit paid will be, because it will likely be more that 92hrs

Dont tell me this system sucks.

 

[OCP]

Ok thanks, that is not bad. 20 + days off with 75 hrs pay. What is pay on a vacation day?

What or who determines the amount of days off if you request max days off? Is this set in the CBA or can management change this at their discretion?

With max pay, what is your max pay for the month and what would be your min days off?

With the XJT CBA the pilots have control over their days off during vacation per their bidding preference.

No one actually determines the amount of days off. It is all about meeting specific numbers.


Vacation day pay varies to what you select. It is considered a credit. So, I don't remember exact numbers, but low is like 3.75 per day and high is like 4 per day. The credit is used to determine how much other flying you need to add to meet the credit threshold, which will mostly be 75 hrs, but can be reduced. The window is likely going to be 75-105 hrs. (has to be a 30 hr window) You can set a personal credit to anywhere 15 below to 15 above that. This month the company moved the window down to 67 hrs, so that is all you needed to credit to complete your month. So basicly you take your vacation credit say 28hrs. You need to build to 75 hrs. 75-(one week)28= 47 hrs you need to make up.
Again I can't remember off hand if those are the exact numbers.

Max pay would be whatever you could try to build it too. It's kinda the opposite. Set your personal limit to 105 hrs and the system will keep adding as much as it can to take your vacation credit plus what it adds and get as close to 105 as it can.

You can specify specific days off and a bunch of other stuff too.

 

[COOPERVANE]

disregard

 

[Nevets]

We are trying to tell you that with the system (so far) you'll actually like the line you start with.

The argument will never end you don't want PBS and we like our PBS system.

I know XJT pilots who are against this want to think they hold all the cards on this, but the fact is Skywest spent a lot of time and money on this and are not likely to let it go very easily.

We are trying to tell you that for the guys that don't get the two day trips, commutable trips, days off they want (which happens in any PBS), we still have the flexibility to trade for that in the ILIW. That is after the conflicts are dropped and before phase 2. We have more control over our schedules that way and more flexibility if your circumstances change after the bid closes. Maybe its semantics but when I say bidding, it encompass phase 1, ILIW, phase 2, and the SLIW.

Maybe if you actually take the time to learn our system like we are yours, you will like ours better.

As for having all the cards, no we don't. But we (ASA and XJT) do have leverage and XJT has the numbers. So it definitely will have to be "sold" to XJT for it to ever happen.

Line bidding does in no way give you more control. Why would you think this? Name one level that PBS relinquishes control over your schedule? (besides having tons of open time) You have more choices for every aspect of the parings you are bidding on. Over 300 different things to choose from. I'm talking from a bidding perspective.
Delta does have PBS, and they seem to be doing fine...

See above. Maybe your line bidding system didn't but ours does give more control and flexibility than your current PBS. Open time is one important aspect of our line bidding. SWA has line bidding and seems to be doing better.

Dont tell me this system sucks.

I have picked up portions of trips from other line holders that posted in opentime, and now have 16 days off and 92hrs of credit.

This system sucks. Just kidding. We are just telling you that maybe its better than your old system but its not better than our line bidding.

By the way, we don't call that open time. We call those advertised trips. We have the ability to advertise a whole trip or portions of a trip. You can break it down as much as you want. Any one can pick those up. Open time is just trips that are not covered at all that anyone can pick up at any time and are not reliant on someone advertising their trip or portion of their trip. We have that also since we always have some open time left after phase 2/before the SLIW.

 

[centralpilot]

Vacation day pay varies to what you select. It is considered a credit. So, I don't remember exact numbers, but low is like 3.75 per day and high is like 4 per day.

Vacation is worth 3.5 hours of credit per day. For bidding purposes you can assign a "virtual credit" of 4 hours per day. This helps you reach the minimum credit window with less trip credit in a vacation month, if you desire. The minimum pay is 75 hours, even if you complete a schedule with less than 75 hours of credit.

The window is likely going to be 75-105 hrs. (has to be a 30 hr window) You can set a personal credit to anywhere 15 below to 15 above that. This month the company moved the window down to 67 hrs, so that is all you needed to credit to complete your month.

The credit window is the range the bidding system is trying to get you in to complete a schedule. The company publishes a Threshold Line Value (TLV) that the system is trying to reach, along with a minimum and maximum to the credit window. The window must be at least 30 hours wide, the minimum must be at least TLV -10, and the maximum at least TLV +15. The company can distribute the other 5 hours on either side of the TLV. By default, the system is going to keep assigning trips, per your preferences, until your credit is at or above the TLV and within the credit window.

You can set a personal credit threshold that supersedes the TLV, but your schedule must still fall within the credit window. If the window minimum is 67 and you set a personal threshold of 60, it will keep assigning trips until it reaches or exceeds 67 hours.

In a month where you are trying for maximum vacation, you can select the "Vacation Low" option. If you do this, the published TLV and credit window doesn't matter. Your TLV becomes 75 hours and the minimum credit is 65 hours. Using the 4 hour per day "virtual credit" allows you to reach that value faster. If the award engine gets to the end of a bid sheet and you have 65+ hours, your schedule is complete. If you bid effectively, you can complete a schedule with as little as 37 hours of trip credit with one full week of vacation (65 - 28 = 37). You can achieve this with 6-8 working days, depending on seniority.

Max pay would be whatever you could try to build it too. It's kinda the opposite. Set your personal limit to 105 hrs and the system will keep adding as much as it can to take your vacation credit plus what it adds and get as close to 105 as it can.

If you want to maximum pay in a vacation month, you would not select "vacation low" or the "virtual credit", and would set your personal credit threshold as high as you desire. Your schedule can't exceed the credit window maximum, so that would be the practical limit of what you could be awarded in a vacation month. In the first live month that maximum was 105 hours.

 

[dojetdriver]

We are trying to tell you that for the guys that don't get the two day trips, commutable trips, days off they want (which happens in any PBS), we still have the flexibility to trade for that in the ILIW. That is after the conflicts are dropped and before phase 2. We have more control over our schedules that way and more flexibility if your circumstances change after the bid closes. Maybe its semantics but when I say bidding, it encompass phase 1, ILIW, phase 2, and the SLIW.

Maybe if you actually take the time to learn our system like we are yours, you will like ours better.

As for having all the cards, no we don't. But we (ASA and XJT) do have leverage and XJT has the numbers. So it definitely will have to be "sold" to XJT for it to ever happen.



See above. Maybe your line bidding system didn't but ours does give more control and flexibility than your current PBS. Open time is one important aspect of our line bidding. SWA has line bidding and seems to be doing better.



This system sucks. Just kidding. We are just telling you that maybe its better than your old system but its not better than our line bidding.

By the way, we don't call that open time. We call those advertised trips. We have the ability to advertise a whole trip or portions of a trip. You can break it down as much as you want. Any one can pick those up. Open time is just trips that are not covered at all that anyone can pick up at any time and are not reliant on someone advertising their trip or portion of their trip. We have that also since we always have some open time left after phase 2/before the SLIW.

Pretty much what Nevets said.

Only thing to add is this. A junior pilot in a PBS system may not get what they want due to a senior pilots with the same preferences getting those trips/days off from the pool. A junior pilot in a line bid may not get what they want because senior pilots bid those lines.

In a PBS system, since it's about efficiency and reducing open time, the junior pilot has few options to tweak/modify their award.

In the line bid system, the conflicts have generated so many new pairings that the junior pilot can almost always tweak/modify their month.

And to repeat what Nevets said, XJT pilots are taking the time to understand how the PBS system works, especially as it relates to vacation. And I'd say that most of us are impressed that the system has that capability.

Very few, if any ASA pilots are taking the time to learn how the XJT line bid/LIW system is set up, as well as understand the amount of control/flexibility that the pilot has.

Sadly, with all the arguments presented, like Nevets, I like XJT's system better.

 

[OCP]

How many pilots are based in IAH? How many hard lines does that produce?
In ATL we have approx 440 pilots (each CA and FO) on the 200 which when we had hard lines was giving us under 300 lines.

 

[79%N1]

It doesn't matter what ASA pilots learn. What matters is what is negotiated with management in the JCBA. Think of it like this. ASA management is GOING TO BE HELLBENT on keeping ASA. That gives us 4000+ pilots with leverage to tweak this system. We can get even more vacation credit, more credit for training, more pay, etc... by tweaking this system. To ditch PBS and go with XJT's system us pilots would most certainly need to GIVE UP elsewhere to effectively "buy back" your system. That is how all negotiations work! Not to mention, If ASA management okay's line bidding it may also not include your exotic LIW's you use. That is a far less level of control than they have historically ever given up. They are notorious for wanting less flexibility for the pilots. Everything costs something, or we can use our leverage to get what we want.

 

[goahead]

I predict as some at ATec have said, AS has PBS so XJT will as well, whether it's a complete purchase or an asset purchse could depend on some yet TBD details

 

[centralpilot]

Agreed +1, The line bidding system simply gives the pilots more control over their schedule period. PBS relinquishes that control on many levels. It is the unions / companies job to construct productive lines. Does Southwest have PBS?

The XJT line bidding system has excellent vacation flexibility, but I wouldn't agree that line bidding gives you more control in all cases. Vacation rules notwithstanding, line bidding's weakness is that the company builds the lines. What if you want to work 3-days only but the company has built a bunch of lines with 3-days followed by day lines? Those 3-day pairings are held hostage in bad schedules. What if you want to work Monday start 4-days, but need a Wednesday off in the 3rd week? There aren't many company built lines that will accomplish this. What if you want to work pairings with a particular overnight every week? Suitable pairings may be scattered among many different lines. What if you want commutable trips, but the company built lines with commutable pairings scattered among non-commutable ones? What if you are junior and need certain days off in the first 3 days of the month (or 6 in XJT's case). Good luck with line integration, but PBS gives you a fighting chance. Yes, open-time (ILIW, etc) can help in some of those cases, but it is not guaranteed.

The PBS selling point for me is that I can build my schedule with the pairings I want, so long as the pairings haven't been assigned to someone more senior. I don't have to pass on the pairings I want because they are attached to a terrible line. It is like a giant pot of open time that is highly sortable. I think I can build my line better than the company can.

The vacation work rules we negotiated are showing good early results for vacation extension. I believe they are a clear improvement over ASA's previous vacation situation. It is NOT a clear improvement over the XJT system, so on this point it is a much tougher sell. However, I think if we can negotiate comparable work rules we can have the most flexible system possible.

In any event, there are advantages and disadvantages to either system. What really matters isn't XJT current book vs ASA current book. What matters is new TA vs XJT/ASA current book. If the eventual TA, as a total package, doesn't represent an improvement, then vote no!

 

[centralpilot]

I predict as some at ATec have said, AS has PBS so XJT will as well, whether it's a complete purchase or an asset purchse could depend on some yet TBD details

Seriously? There are job and scope protections in the Transition & Process Agreement. Stop fear mongering. Management will likely be less receptive to a line bidding system given the state of the competition and the money they have invested in PBS, but they still have to get XJT pilots to approve the new TA if they want to fully integrate the operations.

 

[V1rowt8]

Did the pilots at ASA initiate implementing PBS or did ASA/Skywest management?

 

[the palm]

Did the pilots at ASA initiate implementing PBS or did ASA/Skywest management?

Management made the pilots do the research and development.

 

[Nevets]

The XJT line bidding system has excellent vacation flexibility, but I wouldn't agree that line bidding gives you more control in all cases. Vacation rules notwithstanding, line bidding's weakness is that the company builds the lines. What if you want to work 3-days only but the company has built a bunch of lines with 3-days followed by day lines? Those 3-day pairings are held hostage in bad schedules. What if you want to work Monday start 4-days, but need a Wednesday off in the 3rd week? There aren't many company built lines that will accomplish this. What if you want to work pairings with a particular overnight every week? Suitable pairings may be scattered among many different lines. What if you want commutable trips, but the company built lines with commutable pairings scattered among non-commutable ones? What if you are junior and need certain days off in the first 3 days of the month (or 6 in XJT's case). Good luck with line integration, but PBS gives you a fighting chance. Yes, open-time (ILIW, etc) can help in some of those cases, but it is not guaranteed.

The PBS selling point for me is that I can build my schedule with the pairings I want, so long as the pairings haven't been assigned to someone more senior. I don't have to pass on the pairings I want because they are attached to a terrible line. It is like a giant pot of open time that is highly sortable. I think I can build my line better than the company can.

Nothing is guaranteed in either system. That is the point! In our line bidding system, you may not be senior enough to hold two day trips. But with trip conflict drops and the ILIW, ANYONE can pickup/trade for whatever trip or day off they want! Or if something comes up and you need a certain day off, at least you can do that in the ILIW or even the SLIW. Therein lies the flexibility that your PBS system does NOT have. Along with the bit of open time left in the SLIW and BD/WD trades to continue improving or simply changing your line as circumstances change. In essence, if you don't like the line you were awarded, you can build your own line during the ILIW.

I'm not sure how many times it has to be explained. Also, it would be nice if ASA guys would educate themselves in our line bidding system just as we are learning about your PBS. You will probably like it better than your PBS.

By the way, we got pairing construction input back on our side. We used to be heavily involved in pairing construction until our new CEO took over. Now we have it back, from my understanding.

 

[centralpilot]

Did the pilots at ASA initiate implementing PBS or did ASA/Skywest management?

Eh... Part of the 2007 contract was an agreement to open negotiations on a possible PBS LOA 6 months after DOS. The company had initially wanted PBS very late in the negotiating cycle for that contract, but that would have required reopening many TA'd contract sections and would have extended negotiations that were already 5 years running.

Once research and negotiations began per that provision, the union become more of the driving force behind getting a deal done. The general consensus was that the company would demand a PBS system in the next section 6 negotiations, so it was in our best interests to implement it earlier under our terms. The thought was that we would get better work rules this way, and would also have an evaluation period where problems could be detected and fixed in the next full contact negotiations.