Fate is the Hunter

[radarlove]

While that has been wonderful, how much greater to have that approach to minimums in drving rain, to hear the drops impacting the windscreen, the thunder over the engine noise, and, to say, " this one looks tough sir, it's your airplane." To see their calm, to watch them caress the controls, go with the turbulance, and see that smile once more as the wheels squeak.

I'm sorry, this sentance made me retch for some reason.

Maybe because I've been there, done that, got the tee-shirt, lost friends, and enjoyed a bit of frostbite that I don't see any romance in what was a truly dangerous time. I worked for a company that over five years, lost 10% of its fleet in NTSB catagorized "accidents", with many, many more "incidents".

Y'know what? Every SINGLE one of those accidents was caused by a dumb move by the captain. That's why I don't cut much slack to Gann when he takes off without cargo fully secured, or doesn't get his cargo weighed, or lets his airplane be over-fueled, or lets the airplane get double-loaded. None of these are "heroic" acts, they're the types of things that got my friends into trouble, and twice, killed.

For those that will take this as flame-bait, you're welcome to get mad, but I'm still a bit on the "okaaaaay..." side with some of his stories, especially the one about the engineer taking him to dinner and explaining that they had done exhaustive calculations and ONLY BECAUSE HE DID THINGS EXACTLY RIGHT DID HE LIVE TO SEE THE NEXT DAY THEY PROVED IT WITH THIER SLIDE RULES. Okaaaay, sure.

 

[Captain Overs]

Times were different back then. It's easy to look back at that time knowing what you know now, which isn't much. It's called "Monday morning quarterbacking". Heard of it? This job is what it is because of "Pioneers" who blazed the trail before us. Failing to appreciate that process shows your lack of empathy for the pilots who came before us. Why do you think A.L.P.A. came into being?

 

[radarlove]

Times were different back then. It's easy to look back at that time knowing what you know now, which isn't much. It's called "Monday morning quarterbacking". Heard of it? This job is what it is because of "Pioneers" who blazed the trail before us. Failing to appreciate that process shows your lack of empathy for the pilots who came before us. Why do you think A.L.P.A. came into being?

I don't think weight and balance was "pioneered" in 1940--I think they might have had a handle on that pretty early on, don't you think?

 

[Captain Overs]

Don't avoid the subject. You're still clueless about what pilots went through back then. If you want to nit pick the issue and try to prove you know what you're talking about fine. I know a few books that would help you understand what pilots went throught in the early days. I would be willing to send you a PM with those books so you could check them out, but I'm not sure you'd make it past the pictures. Cheerio!

And for the record...stop defending yourself. Your comment on this post say all that needs to be said about your lack of understanding.

 

[Captain Overs]

I almost forgot......Can you believe they used to fly single engine biplanes to deliver the mail in the 1930's? Jets are so much safer, I can't believe they would even consider flying recip biplanes.

 

[radarlove]

And for the record...stop defending yourself. Your comment on this post say all that needs to be said about your lack of understanding.

Lack of understanding of what? Certainly not of weight and balance. Or do you think it's heroic that of the eight or so harrowing stories, four were related to him not being concientious about things that pilots are supposed to be concientious about?

Next will come, "I'm tired of talking with you about this", which is the ultimate admission that a serial poster is wrong and can no longer make a coherent argument.

 

[Captain Overs]

I would never use that logic. You seem to be the one who's avoiding the issue and focusing on weight and balance. I'm talking about the whole era and what they went through. Your lack of understanding shows in the fact that you made your initial post. 95% of pilots think it was an incredible book. Flying was more of "Seat of your pants" back then. Things that would get you fired from an airline for doing today, but since you're "All-knowing" you already knew that.

 

[BoilerUP]

Its hard to ensure your cargo is secure when its been loaded by a bunch of Army soldiers and you are a civilian under military orders to make this flight and make it now. Could you have survived under such duress? There is a reason so many pilots died back in those days, and not all by what you would characterize as "stupid mistakes".

You want to know how we came to do things the way we do today? Ask an old-timer. They'll tell you how it "used to be", with no trumped-up chestbeating like you are insinuating here. Crappy weather, poor forecasts, face-on encounters with thunderstorms, unreliable equipment and poor charts helped cause just as many accidents (probably many more) than pilot error, but Gann never says the pilots weren't at fault in their accidents...he just said the numbers are indiscrimiate.

If you don't want to believe Gann's stories, thats fine; there are plenty of people who have corroberated his tales. But please, don't belittle the effect these men had on aviation.

 

[Crzipilot]

Lack of understanding of what? Certainly not of weight and balance. Or do you think it's heroic that of the eight or so harrowing stories, four were related to him not being concientious about things that pilots are supposed to be concientious about?

Next will come, "I'm tired of talking with you about this", which is the ultimate admission that a serial poster is wrong and can no longer make a coherent argument.

Hmmm..weight and balance issues. In present day life, the non-skeds and even some of the bigger freight operators had to change how they did things, Involving cookie sheets, and nets and tie downs and such, due to a little incident that occured. Some cargo shifted, prob. overweight (can you believe they'd lie about the weight of something going into an airplane), nets frayed, cookie sheets not tied down, cookie sheets damaged, etc etc etc. This happened in '97 and all of a sudden the feds started looking at how freight was handled. So let me guess, those pilots that were on that flight in '97 weren't concientious about it? You obviously have no clue as to why we are where we are today, as someone said earlier.

 

[BD King]

radarlove----------I guess I have failed. Other than making a few bucks, one of the reasons of starting a publishing business and republishing old aviation classics, was to try and educate today's pilot. That is to give a self understanding of who we are (were) and how we got to where we are today. With you, I have failed.

Ernie Gann gave his definition of an aviator verses that of just a pilot. I will not get into the definition, but you are only just a pilot, and will never graduate to that of an aviator. For some reason, I think most of the greybeards here will agree with me.

www.bdkingpress.com

 

[ATRCAPT]

save your breath!

Save your breath everyone! Don't try to confuse this guy with facts when is mind is already made up. I agree with BDKing, he is a pilot, but will never be an aviator. I also agree with Fokkers&beer, this HAS to be flame bait! I would hope no one is really this ignorant!

 

[jester33]

If your looking for a great aviation book you should find:

Moondogs Academy of the Air and Other Disasters

 

[AZ Typed]

He didn't have mom and dad paying 35k a year to x flying college so he could learn to talk on the radio, graduate, and fly around (badly) in an airborne video game.

Bitter? Jealous? Relax...

 

[cl65capt]

If your looking for a great aviation book you should find:

Moondogs Academy of the Air and Other Disasters

I'll second that. I met the author on a layover in GSO a few years ago(when they had a free keg in the crewroom). A great book, very funny.

 

[psycho]

97 fine air was my roomate from college. Ernie said it better than I ever could.

 

[AvJunke]

[QUOTE Still a good book, especially his day-to-day life descriptions, but ugh, he spends a lot of time as the hero, let me tell you.[/QUOTE]

Fate is the Hunter is a great book. The tone of the book is consistent with the style of the day; very Hemingway. There is a lot of bravado and embellishment in there but that makes for a great story. You know he had to have had some adventures flying during the burgeoning stages of the airline industry.
I was amazed at the consistencey of the industry in his day and ours. Nothing has changed. The one lesson that stood out to me was be careful of thinking the grass is greener on the other side because it is usually a mirage. Leaving his airline for the allure of being number 3 at a new airline put him in the unemployment line pretty quickly if I recall correctly. Nice read for anyone who hasn't checked it out.
This is one of the first threads I've seen in 4 years worth commenting on. I usually just enjoy watching you kids whine and bicker like a bunch of old women. It keeps me up to speed on our spectacular industry, so thanks for the melodrama.

Cheers!

 

[Crzipilot]

97 fine air was my roomate from college. Ernie said it better than I ever could.

Psycho, who are ya??? I was there to (f/o college), and had some dealings in the crash....

 

[Huck]

You guys correct me if wrong but the Fine Air crew checked all the uplocks they could see - but the ones in back were not up. Nothing you can do about that and a freight guy's worst nightmare. I used to ride bikes around cargo city right where they hit.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The air mail pilots were getting killed or fired for not flying in unsafe wx. Business managers were making the go (there was no no go). Finally the air mail pilots got together and said the next guy that gets fired we all quit. And they did.

The Army pilots took over and started dying.

Fast fwd to today. Trans States pilots are getting fired for being effective ALPA volunteers.

The problems of yesteryear are the problems of today. Same food different flavor.

The pioneers deserve our appreciation and repsect. We deserve our own self repsect.

 

[radarlove]

Its hard to ensure your cargo is secure when its been loaded by a bunch of Army soldiers and you are a civilian under military orders to make this flight and make it now. Could you have survived under such duress? There is a reason so many pilots died back in those days, and not all by what you would characterize as "stupid mistakes".

Ummm...yeah? I would have made sure my cargo was tied down? Mmmmhmmm? See, if you don't, that's suicidal, and as much as I love my country, military orders to makes this flight now aren't quite enough to cause me to commit suicide--which wouldn't help the army or me. I've stood up, stopped the process and required it be done correctly. Have you?

I can't believe you are actually defending Gann's taking off without secure cargo. That was a phck-up and he knew it and I knew it and you should know it, unless you're used to the rest of the world telling you how to load and fly an airplane where you are PIC.

And Publisher, you're right, I don't get your point about being an "aviator". Does that mean I have to worship at the altar of those who came before? You sound like one of those guys who dreams of "glory days" that never really existed. Again, I've flown with my share of cowl flaps, NDBs and ice on the wings and I personally believe only a fool would long for those days again. I ask again, if Gann was a hero for flying through the ice and landing below minimums, am I more or less of a hero for flying through the ice and not busting minimums? Am I really that far off thinking he was kind of a dumb puppy for not being more concientious in his weight and balance responsibilities? Every student pilot in the world has made the mistake of too hot and heavy, why do we cut Gann slack when he kept making the mistake? Three at my count, anyway. "Our fuel gauges were unreliable". Ok, go stick it, like you're supposed to. "I clambored over the parts of the tower to get to the cockpit" And didn't notice that there wasn't a single tie-down?

A common thread has been that things haven't really changed much from then 'till now, and that's true. Navigation has gotten better and backup systems and engines are more reliable, but judgement hasn't changed. The same things that would kill you back then will kill you today unless you do stuff right.