Fallout from an age 60-Rule change

[81Horse]

Nope...I'm serious. PROFIT = making money. I see no paycuts in our future. Why would we need them?

Because the entire playing field is being ratcheted down around you.

I'm not wishing you and your company ill -- but I've learned to take the long and cynical view of the industry and management. Management does not love you, SWA/FO; just sayin'.

 

[Jim Smyth]

Spooky 1, I am done and have said my peace with the 60/65 issue, I hope.

But I just hate to see some bad information spread around here from the arm chair quarterbacks that dont $hit about SWA or the industry in general.

Plus I suck at golf!

 

[737 Pylt]

Nope...I'm serious. PROFIT = making money. I see no paycuts in our future. Why would we need them?

You wouldn't, period! Your management team seems to have a grasp on the industry, and where its going. They know (based on their motto) to take care of employees, and they will take care of you, something the legacies have failed miserably at! The only problem I see with LUV is when/if the hedging comes up?!
737

 

[SWAdude]

You wouldn't, period! Your management team seems to have a grasp on the industry, and where its going. They know (based on their motto) to take care of employees, and they will take care of you, something the legacies have failed miserably at! The only problem I see with LUV is when/if the hedging comes up?!
737

I have posted this before and will again.

After reading this 737 Pylt, do you think our hedges are still a problem?

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=66693

This paragraph alone sums it up:

"Competitors fares have increased to cover rapidly inflating fuel costs and have caused Southwest’s unit costs (or CASM) and unit revenue (or RASM) to become relatively lower than the competition. For example, from 2000 through 2Q 2002 Southwest’s unit costs averaged 40 percent below the major airline average, while unit revenue averaged 16 percent below. Over the past 24 months the relative level of Southwest’s unit costs has averaged 47 percent below the Majors, while unit revenues were 28 percent below. These huge unit cost and unit revenue gaps keep increasing, as the second quarter 2005 results show Southwest unit costs 65 percent below the major airline average and unit revenue 48 percent below. These gaps make Southwest more attractive to customers as Southwest fares fall further and further below other carriers. The increased unit cost gap is also interesting to investors as Southwest’s costs fall further below the competition, where industry CASM is now at an all time high pushing above 12 cents. Although fare adjustments relate directly to customer price sensitivity, which must be carefully watched, the fare “headroom” provided by competitors increasing fares allows a chance for Southwest to potentially pocket as much as $2 billion annually if it were to restore it’s historical relative fare gap of 16 percent below the competition (rather than the 28 percent below performance of the second quarter 2005)."

 

[737 Pylt]

I have posted this before and will again.

After reading this 737 Pylt, do you think our hedges are still a problem?

I guess not! The LUV model is perfect in every aspect...The only problem that might rear its ugly head is if SW goes for a different aircraft type. I will be interested to see how B6 does in the long term having introduced a new type of airplane!
737

 

[ivauir]

Then I guess we'll see what tune you're singing in a year.

Skyboss I cannot help but notice that you have no response to the fact that your information is grossly in error. We don't need to wait a year - you are out to lunch right now.

 

[lostplnetairman]

Should it not be the burden of those who want to change the rule to prove it is not a safety concern? If it has a zero effect on safety then why does ICAO require one pilot be below 60?

Maybe you would consider answering a legal question? If they change the rule to ICAO standards could we FOs who are under 60 simply refuse to fly with CAs over 60? The rule suggest there is a concern for this arrangement. It seems the FOs are being expoited.

Do you have a real name? (or one that is more acceptable in social circles)--it's really difficult to respond to "Flopgut" with a straight face! I'm sure you'll tell me it's some super secret aviation name! LOL!

I don't answer legal questions that request advice as that is not allowed.

No it's not my burden of proof. The ICAO requirement is a political issue to expediate passage of the rules. There are many, like you, who doubt the ability of those over 60 to function. Perception is 100% of the truth. So if there is tape on the passenger tray table, the whole plane is broken mythology applies! To get around that, they offer a mitigating solution that, while not based on fact, will get the job done politically.

But you should know that prior to now, medical science thought that the brain stops development at around age 20. Well Harvard has researched this, studying brains ranging from ages birth to 76. They focused on myelin, the insulation wrapped around the wires of nerve cells. Myelin affects how quickly you think, act, learn and process information. The study found that myelin increased dramatically in the fifth decade (33 percent) and more dramatically in the sixth decade ( 55 percent!). The later growth spurts all occurred in the part of the brain associated with emotional learning and memory, which may explain a lot about emotional maturity.

Until now, no studies have been done.

HR Diva

 

[crashpad]

F9s' contract allows retirees to retain their seniority rights and come back when the law changes, if they wish. I think that says a lot about how we look at pilots' assets based on experience instead of age.

Are there any other airlines working to slip this side letter into their contract?

 

[Skyboss]

Skyboss I cannot help but notice that you have no response to the fact that your information is grossly in error. We don't need to wait a year - you are out to lunch right now.

Keep on drinkin' the juice and chucking peanuts.

 

[QCappy]

Name one healthy (airline) company that has asked and gotten paycuts from its employees? None, most were near or in bankruptcy for that to happen. We would have to be near bankruptcy for this topic to come up and I don't see that happening.

Alaska

 

[WhiteCloud]

150 posts and still the same old crap. Young guys want the old guys out of the way so they can make more money. Old guys and pilots that are starting over because they were put out on the street want to keep working to make more money or make up for what they lost. As long as a pilot can pass a 6 month check and hold a 1st class medical I think they should be able to keep working. Maybe some more extensive medical examinations for those over 60 just like the yearly EKG's for those over 40.

 

[SWA/FO]

Alaska was losing money, right? They weren't 100% proftiable when this happened? (I'm asking becuase I don't know)

 

[Flopgut]

Do you have a real name? (or one that is more acceptable in social circles)--it's really difficult to respond to "Flopgut" with a straight face! I'm sure you'll tell me it's some super secret aviation name! LOL!

I don't answer legal questions that request advice as that is not allowed.

No it's not my burden of proof. The ICAO requirement is a political issue to expediate passage of the rules. There are many, like you, who doubt the ability of those over 60 to function. Perception is 100% of the truth. So if there is tape on the passenger tray table, the whole plane is broken mythology applies! To get around that, they offer a mitigating solution that, while not based on fact, will get the job done politically.

But you should know that prior to now, medical science thought that the brain stops development at around age 20. Well Harvard has researched this, studying brains ranging from ages birth to 76. They focused on myelin, the insulation wrapped around the wires of nerve cells. Myelin affects how quickly you think, act, learn and process information. The study found that myelin increased dramatically in the fifth decade (33 percent) and more dramatically in the sixth decade ( 55 percent!). The later growth spurts all occurred in the part of the brain associated with emotional learning and memory, which may explain a lot about emotional maturity.

Until now, no studies have been done.

HR Diva

Flopgut is entirely appropriate for me.

It is a safety issue, that is just the nature of it. If it should be changed and we want to have a fair appraisal of the safety aspects we should also be considering lowering the age. We are not; we have mde this about money.

There would be a wealth of data to use over at Netjets and other operations like them to base changes on. Because (you may not know this) pilots actually can fly past 60, just not at FAR 121 airlines. They have to get off their rump and assert themselves, get re-inspired on their career, and have enough professionalism to contribute in a new environment where they aren't the captain. Only the best examples of pilots that want/need to work over there get to and they are both superlative and a very small percentage of the total. Which I think makes abundantly clear why (most of) these pilots should go in the first place: they are tired, old and busted. They don't want to try anything new, they are not equiped to try anything new, the only thing they can envision themselves doing is soaking up the best schedules and the best pay we have left. Pilots can fly past 60, and the ones who can adapt to new situations, lead and be led, function outside their "comfort zone" like the ones who make it at Netjets are great, let them fly to 100! The problem at the airline is that we have to keep every one of them. Making age the single determining issue carries the opposite effect of what is good about pilot employees who are over 60. Can we legally re-interview pilots past 60 as part of this rule change?

At my airline we are about to have wholesale retirements! An incredible amount of renewal that is desperatly needed. New captains, check airman, chief pilots, union functionairies, management pilots, etc. We need this to freshen up our brand. The folks we have now are no longer equal to the task of moving us forward. Is there a better example of this urgent need anywhere else in corporate America than legacy airlines?

 

[Stan]

"A preliminary investigation of the wreckage found no obvious mechanical troubles with the bus, according to the California Highway Patrol, and weather, road and traffic conditions were good when the bus crashed about 7 a.m. The driver, Samuel Henry Bishop, 63, did not appear to be under the influence of drugs or alcohol."

Maybe this could have been avoided if he had a co-driver that was under 65.

 

[Spooky 1]

"A preliminary investigation of the wreckage found no obvious mechanical troubles with the bus, according to the California Highway Patrol, and weather, road and traffic conditions were good when the bus crashed about 7 a.m. The driver, Samuel Henry Bishop, 63, did not appear to be under the influence of drugs or alcohol."

Maybe this could have been avoided if he had a co-driver that was under 65.

Stan you are stuck on stupid. Everyone knows that the younger driving crowd has more accidents up through about the age of 72 if my memeory serves me right. Getting older by the day you know. The last pilot that died while on duty at Delta Air Lines was 51 and appeared to be in great health. Guess what, it happened during an approach to CDG and the old fart in the left seat manged to get the airplane on the ground with the help of another 50 year old RP. Amazing.

 

[Flopgut]

Continued for HR Diva:

I'm sure as an "HR Diva" you act with an abundance of caution toward any form of discrimination. Does this trump any other mandate you have toward keeping/getting the best group of employees you can? What sort of responsibility do you have toward the company on an issue like this? Is it viewed by management as having the added benefit of dividing the employee group?

So in your opinion this rule will be lumped in with all other EU/ICAO rules that are coming hard and fast like foriegn ownership and open skies? You are saying this will happen now? Because our ALPA legislative affairs guy has said that there is no matching effort in the House at all, and that "age 60" has only gotten this far to appease the SWAPA folks.

 

[Stan]

The pilot who caused a midday panic in Washington on Wednesday failed to get briefings about the weather and restricted airspace and became lost minutes after leaving a Pennsylvania airport, Federal Aviation Administration records show.
Hayden "Jim" Sheaffer, 69, froze when he saw a Black Hawk helicopter appear near his right wing while flying toward the White House and had difficulty operating his small, single-engine aircraft, officials said yesterday. It took the valiant effort of Sheaffer's student-pilot companion, Troy D. Martin, who had only 30 logged hours of flight time, to take over the controls and land the plane at an airport in Frederick, officials said.

 

[WhiteCloud]

Hayden "Jim" Sheaffer, 69, froze when he saw a Black Hawk helicopter appear near his right wing while flying toward the White House and had difficulty operating his small, single-engine aircraft, officials said yesterday. It took the valiant effort of Sheaffer's student-pilot companion, Troy D. Martin, who had only 30 logged hours of flight time, to take over the controls and land the plane at an airport in Frederick, officials said.

Of course we all know that folks under 60 never freeze up or get shaken up over events. In this case it certainly didn't help that the communication equipment on the intercepting helo was not functioning and added to the confusion. At least use a good example. A trend of age 60+ career pilots flying turbine equipment in business operations who are showing problems would get my attention. On old guy out for a burger doesn't quite make the case.

 

[ivauir]

Keep on drinkin' the juice and chucking peanuts.

Ok I will! You keep on being an uninformed moron!

I mean seriously, that's it? That is your response? You post this ignorant, incorrect drivel and then follow it up with lame insults? Stop wasting our time.