"Failed" Strike at ASA?

[Typhoon1244]

Okay, I'll admit it: I just had an ugly picture painted in my head by a certain former EAL striker, and I need someone to hold me and tell me everything'll be okay.

I've noticed that since the informational picketing began in ATL a while back, my fellow ASA pilots have become more and more militant. It seems everybody I talk to is "ready to walk."

The question that was put to me is this: if the ASA pilots are released and walk, what's to stop the company from cutting the strikers off at the knees by taking ASA's assets and scabs--and let's not kid ourselves; there will be scabs--and rolling them into the rest of DCI (i.e. Comair), thus eliminating us troublesome ASA pilots altogether?

Is such a scenario worth worrying about? Or is this unlikely?

 

[captain caveman]

Then we walk and get jobs in the same or other fields that offer superior compensation and recognition. The industry will take note and we'll have contributed to raising the bar. Besides, Drew, Chuck and Skip aren't necessarily looking to change jobs either. Don't forget, unlike Eastern, ASA makes a little money.
cc

 

[HoursHore]

I would think that Comair would be your last worry about flying struck work or allowing scabs on thier list. They would be among your strongest allies.

 

[rvsm410]

PAn AM closed for good, Pilots are gone!

Even though it's on a smaller scale, look waht just happened to the ALPA Pan AM pilots....They closed the company, turned in the Pan AM certificate and are adding the 72's to the Boston maine Certficate and will fly them with new BMA crews...They are even moving all there ops, Mx to SFB next month...

So dont think this senerio has not been discussed by the Big GO next door....these are extreme times and strange out of the box crap has happened and will again...good luck and be careful what you ask for....

 

[sweptback]

I may be union dumb, but wouldn't that still be considered struck work? As in, no ALPA carrier would be able to fly it, as it would mean crossing the line. After all, there is a readily accessible schedule of ASA flights, and if another DCI carrier were to build up routes duplicating ASA's old schedule, well, there'd be troube I'd think.

If the "struck work" moniker disappears when the assets are transferred and the certificate is dissolved, well then I suppose that it's possible. But it would still be shady and I know the Comair pilots would not sanction it. Still, if this was such a good idea, why was this not done during the Comair strike?

 

[Axel]

...Still, if this was such a good idea, why was this not done during the Comair strike?

You mean the failed Comair strike?

 

[nimtz]

Militancy is fabulous, BUT good luck getting released from the NMB. Trust me I speak from exprience. Expect to be worn down in recess till it is not worth it anymore. Special thanks to the charlatan Bush voters who claim to care about the bottomless pit this profession is headed towards.

 

[spinproof]

You mean the failed Comair strike?

OK here comes the "heat"....You can call the Comair strike a lot of things but the only failure is that DAL didn't recognize a determined pilot group sooner!
Funny how much money this "Major" adds to the bottom line while paying the benifits it does.

Stand your ground this industry is headed back up! All signs point to a multi-year market growth period of which our industry will be an intrinsic part. Never listen to cynics they have absolutly nothing to add they only subtract!

Remember a united front has "NEVER" been defeated. You only lose when you give up! Good luck and may your strenth be Herculian...you're gonna' need it!

 

[Old Crow]

The management of airlines will always be negotiating. That is the job of managers. Their sole purpose is to achieve the most amount of money with a set of assets. The managers at ASA only have to be as accountable as the departure coordinator does. Really doesn't matter cause you can blame the pilots for everything. ASA management really doesn't care if the pilots strike cause they then will look to Delta to call "Uncle" and provived a solution.

I believe, therefore, one must consider the value of their job.
Can you easily replace your salary?
Do you have to be a pilot?
Do you have to work for an airline?
Are you willing to leave your current position?

Strikes are visious actions to sway management to act. I don't believe any of us want to strike or to be known as such. However, I believe that the state of the industry has made each of us take a look at each of these questions and the term strike may have a new meaning. Many people have mentioned that the quality of life and pay at the Regional level are acceptable only for a short term. This may be the reason the majority of ASA pilots will vote to strike, simply to give it one attempt prior to a simple resignation.

 

[BellyFlyer]

Strike

Keep in mind I am but a lowly 'regional' FO with a family, mortgage, and a pile of debt. But if you guys are released and do strike, I will support you guys to the fullest, including your pickets and strike fund! Good luck. I think we're all gonna need it in the coming year.

 

[ifly4food]

Okay, I'll admit it: I just had an ugly picture painted in my head by a certain former EAL striker, and I need someone to hold me and tell me everything'll be okay.

I've noticed that since the informational picketing began in ATL a while back, my fellow ASA pilots have become more and more militant. It seems everybody I talk to is "ready to walk."

The question that was put to me is this: if the ASA pilots are released and walk, what's to stop the company from cutting the strikers off at the knees by taking ASA's assets and scabs--and let's not kid ourselves; there will be scabs--and rolling them into the rest of DCI (i.e. Comair), thus eliminating us troublesome ASA pilots altogether?

Is such a scenario worth worrying about? Or is this unlikely?

I would say unlikely.

It would be an enormous task to cover our flying. Remember, we will have nearly 50% of all DAL ATL departures starting 1 Feb. They couldn't simply roll our "assets" (does any wholly owned DCI actually have any real assets?) into someone else because there would be no one trained quickly enough to operate those assets. This is the same question the Comair pilots successfully answered in '00.

As for scabs, I find that doubtful too. True, we have seen many pilots out there willing to do our job for less, but that doesn't mean they're ready to cross a picket line and face the consequences of doing such. Comair did not attempt to hire scabs, and the only scabs from that strike were management pilots who "volunteered" to move airplanes around in non revenue operations.

Regarding pilot militency, I would agree that it is the highest I've ever seen it. Our management has been following the principle of "the beatings will continue until morale improves" for quite some time, and it clearly doesn't work.
I would say that many of our FOs and even some captains are ready to outright quit and find work outside the industry if this contract doesn't meet our expectations.

This job is fun, but it's not worth the abuse we get for our compensation level. If our corrupt, ignorant, abusive, power hungry, inept, good old boy, TWA killing management team doesn't realize how tired our pilots are of the abuse, they will see this company tank just like the last company they tried to run. (Yeah, Thibadeau helped run TWA into the ground, and brought his management techniques and some buddies down with him).

Our best bet is actually not to strike. Angry employees make for unhappy customers. Ask US Air. That's the lesson our management is learning the hard way.

 

[FDJ2]

Anyone who voted for a candidate just because he would be best for the airline industry is foolish. Some of us based our votes on our morals, not just which candidate would be best for the airline industry.

And what morals would that be?

 

[lowecur]

Beware the Ides of March

Half of the CRJ's are owned by DAL at both Comair & ASA. Watch out for a back door sale to Skywest of those a/c. They want them so they can consumate deal for UAX contract. Fred bought too many RJ's. Look for big RJET 170 order if that happens.

 

[FDJ2]

Fred bought too many RJ's. Look for big RJET 170 order if that happens.

Who's going to get the E170s? My guess is that CHQ will get E170 orders, DAL will off load some older RJ50s from ASA/CMR and replace them with some newer RJ70s. DAL likes fleet simplification, introducing the E-170s into CRJ operations at ASA/CMR just increases costs.

 

[Wacopilot]

FDJ2"Who's going to get the E170s? My guess is that CHQ will get E170 orders, DAL will off load some older RJ50s from ASA/CMR and replace them with some newer RJ70s. DAL likes fleet simplification, introducing the E-170s into CRJ operations at ASA/CMR just increases costs."

That's true.. I think the single fleet has been a big part of our success at CMR.....So will DAL pilots who get hired at ChickenTaco be Teamsters??? Or does DALPA care what union DALPA members join......will they be represented by both? Union Merger....call it ALPsters.....

Waco

 

[twobits]

ok... first of all, Count how many successful strikes there have been in the history of ALPA. Now, count how many successful airline strikes there have been under Bush's presidency. The later is a higher number (100%). Lest we forget that Comair's strike was successul in many respects and occured during President Bush's first term.


Now, what did you vote for?? Did you just blindly listen to ALPA or do you care about morals (i.e. not getting bj's in the white house), integrity, fairness and strong defense of our country when we are attacked (despite what other socialist countries such as France say about it). ASA can and will, if necessary, have a succesful strike just like Comair did under Bush. The only difference is Comair's strike was during the official recession (March - october 2001) and ASA is negotiating in a very strong economy. There is no reason ASA should not top Comair's rates and benefits, without a strike.

 

[michael707767]

So will DAL pilots who get hired at ChickenTaco be Teamsters??? Or does DALPA care what union DALPA members join......will they be represented by both? Union Merger....call it ALPsters.....

Waco

From what I have been told, unless you are employed, you are not really a member of the union. Ask yourself this, do the furloughed guys pay dues or get a vote? I see no problem with them working at CHQ and being in their union.

 

[Axel]

Lest we forget that Comair's strike was successul in many respects...

But did the Comair guys win the battle and lose the war?

 

[FDJ2]

CMR.....So will DAL pilots who get hired at ChickenTaco be Teamsters??? Or does DALPA care what union DALPA members join......will they be represented by both? Union Merger....call it ALPsters.....

Waco

Waco, it's really not too complicated. If they are hired and employed at CHQ they will be represented by the Teamsters at CHQ, just as if a furloughed pilot were hired at World, or if a furloughed pilot works at UPS he'll be represented by the IPA, or Airtran by the NPA, it's no big deal.

 

[Dash8301]

Don't worry about Comair. If there is SCAB work to me done MESA will pick it up for half pay.

 

[michael707767]

I really don't think we will ever know what will happen if ASA strikes. It won't happen. Delta will BK papers in hand if it gets right down to it, and will use the BK court to prevent a strike. Delta may well be in BK before you get the chance......I have no doubt they will head there to get rid of the pilots pension.

 

[captain caveman]

It didn't take a strike last time. Management is doing a fine job of forming a pilot group that is becomming more uniformily pissed off. It is not an illegal job action to enter a write up in the discrepancy log when it occurs no matter where it occurs! It is not our job to perform the resets required to "clear" these problems.

CP told me today that Willie has been authorized to do some extreme $hit in January and that the CPs are unauthorized to overide his assignments. Get ready to accept assignments with protest.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Who's going to get the E170s?

Ask your MEC, but I think you already know the answer ( or you are very out of the loop ).

You are going to get the E-170's under your jets for jobs protocols, so you can fly them at an alter ego airline for 15 to 20% less than Connection pilots flying CRJ700's. LOA46 provides a "place marker" in the contract stipulating J4J, but the real details are contained elsewhere. Based on what we know now, the US Air furloughees get "super seniority" over your furloughees - but neither of us expect that to be the final arrangement, do we?

Once again, ALPA allowed us to be used to whipsaw each other. Delta furloughees will be compensated less than me for flying a much nicer airplane. The fleet plan used to call for the elimination of the MD88 and 737-200/300 fleet before the end of the decade. I do not know how the fleet plan may have changed, but surely even the disciples of the Delta MEC can see where they are being led. Welcome to the inside lane on the race to the bottom.

It is d@mn hard to negotiate a contract to improve this profession while being undercut in all corners, particularly from your own union. Like fly4food wrote, there are so many of us who are so fed up that we will vote with our feet. If Delta gets shut down in the process, good. This alter ego love fest between management and ALPA must end. Just as the Eastern pilots stood for what was right in ending Lorenzo's pillage of Eastern, perhaps the ASA pilots could do the right thing and send Delta into the history books.

And there is one big difference in the qualifications of ASA and Delta pilots. The HR folks at Airtran are the same people who fought the good fight at Eastern and remember how Delta treated them. If I'm not mistaken, Delta only hired 2 Eastern pilots - both scabs.

The World truly is round.

P.S. Ifly4food - Told you so. Anyone think that there was no link between LOA46 and the E-170's going outside ALPA to an airline that has no representational rights within ALPA? If the result is just about the same as what happened at Northwest, it is not a coincidence. Getting shut out of the next generation of jets is very bad news for ASA pilots.

Our next contract is going to be about as relevant as CC Air's if ALPA does not stop this alter ego business. You know support our negotiating efforts, but we are just arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. The 40 seat RJ has a lot worse numbers than a 737-200.

 

[michael707767]

You are going to get the E-170's under your jets for jobs protocols, so you can fly them at an alter ego airline for 15 to 20% less than Connection pilots flying CRJ700's. LOA46 provides a "place marker" in the contract stipulating J4J, but the real details are contained elsewhere.

There is no J4J with CHQ and you know it. Preferentiall hiring will be offered, but even if a furloughed DAL pilot is hired, he goes to the bottom and does not have to fly the E-170. In fact, based on his seniority, I bet a furloughed DAL guy hired at CHQ will not be on the E-170, not for a couple of years anyway, and then as an F/O.


The real details are elsewhere? Where? Why don't you enlighten us all as to the details of the J4Js deal? I would love to hear it.

 

[CF34-3B1]

It is d@mn hard to negotiate a contract to improve this profession while being undercut in all corners, particularly from your own union. Like fly4food wrote, there are so many of us who are so fed up that we will vote with our feet. If Delta gets shut down in the process, good. This alter ego love fest between management and ALPA must end. Just as the Eastern pilots stood for what was right in ending Lorenzo's pillage of Eastern, perhaps the ASA pilots could do the right thing and send Delta into the history books.

This seems to be a growing sentiment among the ASA pilots.

If DCI is to continue as the poster child for management whipsaw, and the race to the bottom, a lot of our guys would rather see DAL CH11 - CH7 than be a part of it.

What makes the situation so dangerous is given the current financial situation at DAL, an ASA shut down would have a much more dramatic impact than the CMR strike did, and unlike the EAL pilots, most ASA guys can replace their income selling cars.

Given the current attitude of management towards settling the contract, and the ever expanding portfolio, I'd say management (and not just ASA's) is enormously under estimating the level of frustration and anger among the ASA pilots.

Pretty dangerous thing to do when you're dealing with a bunch of guys who'd get a raise if they went to work for Home Depot.

 

[~~~^~~~]

There is no J4J with CHQ and you know it. Preferentiall hiring will be offered, but even if a furloughed DAL pilot is hired, he goes to the bottom and does not have to fly the E-170. In fact, based on his seniority, I bet a furloughed DAL guy hired at CHQ will not be on the E-170, not for a couple of years anyway, and then as an F/O.

Preferential hiring in exchange for airplanes is J4J. What do you call it? Worse, you guys are giving up Delta longevity to fly the airplanes at sub standard pay rates. That Company "gimme" ranks right up there with buying Beech 1900 time at Gulfstream.

The "preferential hiring" is with Republic ( not CHQ, but I never wrote CHQ ) and it will be on the E-170 because Republic only operates that type. Republic was set up as an alter ego for furloughed mainline pilots and US Air's do have super seniority. But if you think the Delta MEC was dumb enough to sign off on this without having something to give their constituents at least the same protections as US Air pilots while flying Delta code - then you have even less confidence in them than I do.

Here, why don't you spend some time on their web site. I think you will like the E-170 even more than the MD88, shame it doesn't pay anything & it is Teamsters, not ALPA. But at least you can still hold on to your "Mainline" gig and ALPA National does not have to worry about more "Connection" pilots voting to rid the union of its lousy leadership team. After all, there are not that many $450,000.00 plus flying jobs around any more and Duane Woerth has one.

http://www.republicairlines.com/aircraft.asp#

CF34-3B1 : You Sir, are exactly correct.

 

[michael707767]

The "preferential hiring" is with Republic ( not CHQ, but I never wrote CHQ ) and it will be on the E-170 because Republic only operates that type. Republic was set up as an alter ego for US Air's furloughed pilots and they do have super seniority. But if you think the Delta MEC was dumb enough to sign off on this without having something to give their constituents at least the same protections as US Air pilots while flying Delta code - then you have even less confidence in them than I do.

CF34-3B1 : You Sir, are exactly correct.

Ok, you may be correct in one regard. I was told it would be CHQ, not Republic, operating the E-170 for DCI. I'll have to check on that one. Either way, a true J4J deal would have our guys flying all or a set number of the E-170 seats, and in the Captain seat like the USAirways guys got. Preferential hiring is a far cry from J4J. At least as our own MEC explained it to us, it does not gaurantee jobs to our furloughed guys. There is nothing saying who will be hired or in what order, and there is nothing saying how many guys have to be hired as part of preferential hiring. CHQ or Republic, whoever operates the 170, may well be able to hire a very small number of furloughed DAL guys and satisfy that requirement.

The preferential hiring is for anyone who agrees to operate some of the additional 70 seaters. In this case it may be Republic. Next time, it may be ASA or CMR. In that case, what I said would apply, the furloughed DAL guys would in fact go to the bottom and would fly what their seniority will hold, not a 70 seater. I agree with you in one regard. We did not do as well for our furloughed guys are USAirways did. Being hired to the bottom to fly even an E-170 is not worth it, and I bet very few guys will do it.


As far as confidence in my own MEC, I probably do have less confidence in them that you, because I have zero confidence in them. I'll bet you will be a captain on a 100 seat jet flying under the DAL code long before I will.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I'll bet you will be a captain on a 100 seat jet flying under the DAL code long before I will.

I hope not. Delta flying has to be done by Delta pilots - period. If our union officials do not recognize this, then it is time to replace them.

By the way, my apologies for the insulting post, I cleaned it up.

Regards,
~~~^~~~

 

[michael707767]

I hope not. Delta flying has to be done by Delta pilots - period. If our union officials do not recognize this, then it is time to replace them.

By the way, my apologies for the insulting post, I cleaned it up.

Regards,
~~~^~~~

No apologies necessary. I don't take anything I read here personally, and I hope you don't either.


I fully realize right now our scope would prevent what I said. But, as has been pointed out, that can change. I think when the time comes my MEC will fold on the issue of outsourcing 100 seaters.

 

[sgwabd]

My $0.02 is striking is premature. a company Sick day would be a better message. It only costs the company one day of lost revenue plus a few unhappy customers and lets "them" know we are serious.