FAA Vacation

[gutshotdraw]

So, how long do you think the involuntary vacation will be for the SWA crew that took off from SFO 1L last night after only being cleared into position? And yes, an airplane landing 28L had to go around at the rather, em, urgent request of the tower controller. I'm sure the NASA form was filled out before touchdown but I'd like to know if a NASA report will save you from one like this.

Must have been the last leg of reaallly loonnngg day.

 

[Taildragon]

Hope it never happens to you.

 

[Cardinal]

Airiline pilots and their evil representation have also negotiated the ASAP program into existence, another layer of protection. Not bulletproof, but allows for corrective action like writing "I wil not take off when cleared into position and hold" on the chalkboard 100 times, versus serving a suspension.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Hope it never happens to you

Agreed. My heart goes out to those guys, that really sucks.

As I understand it, ASAP only works for sole source. That is, if the only way the mistake could be found out was because you disclosed it.

I don't think the SWA crew were the only ones who knew they F'd up and so the ASAP report will not cover them.

That being said, it still wouldn't hurt to get it done. I'll bet they get a note in their file but nothing more.

 

[The_Russian]

It happened to me.

Many years ago, as a brand new CFI, I took off without a clearance after being given the position. The student had about 15 hours in airplanes and we were beginning to learn short and soft field t/o and landings. We started with the short field takeoff, which was previously briefed. We were holding short of 25 at KORL and the controlled cleared us onto the runway for position and hold. As we took the runway I talked the student through the line-up and power up. Just as we had briefed, I instructed the student to release the brakes and continue down the runway.

Just about eight seconds later, the tower lady came on screaming at me! "N12345, were you cleared for takeoff?!?!" In fear for my certificates, I panicked and instructed the student to abort the takeoff. The student, also being new, slammed on the brakes resulting in a blowout on the left main. So, there we were on the side of the runway with the runway shut down for thirty minutes.

It is kind of a funny story between the two of us, even to this day. More importantly, a lesson learned from a mistake that anyone can make.

Although, this begs the question(s):

How many mistakes is too many for a professional pilot flight crew operating in dense traffic environment? Is just one mistake too many?

 

[Caveman]

So, how long do you think the involuntary vacation will be for the SWA crew that took off from SFO 1L last night after only being cleared into position? And yes, an airplane landing 28L had to go around at the rather, em, urgent request of the tower controller. I'm sure the NASA form was filled out before touchdown but I'd like to know if a NASA report will save you from one like this.

Must have been the last leg of reaallly loonnngg day.

I have a saying I try to live by: "Better pilots than me have landed gear up."

Translation: Any of us can screw up given the right set of circumstances. The main difference between me and this crew is I got away with my screw-ups, so far. Fortunately no one got hurt and no metal was bent. That's all good. Unfortunately this crew will get dragged through the mud by some internet know-it-alls, the press and the FAA. I guarantee you this particular crew will NEVER make this mistake again. If we're smart the rest of us will learn from their mistake. It could happen to any of us. I wish them well.

 

[USMC319]

As I understand it, ASAP only works for sole source.

ASAP works for either "sole source" or "dual source", however, a dual source will have a chance of creating some sort of paperwork for your file (ie.letter of correction).

I've had nightmares about taking off without a clearance, kinda like the dreams when you were a kid and showed up to school in your underwear, but fortunately haven't done it in real life yet.

 

[PositiveRate]

If it's non "sole-source" - i.e. crew self discloses along with FAA pursuing action, you can get a letter or correction or warning in your file for 2 years I believe. Non sole source would likely have a 'how not to take off before cleared to do so' sim session/training.

I believe if it's only sole source - i.e. crew disclosure, then there's no action or letters.

Anyone who looks down on or posts gleefully over incidents like this is tempting the karma Gods...this stuff happens every day and could very well happen to any of us on our next trip. That's why the ASAP program is so great - it encourages disclosure, thus highlighting recurring safety issues that can be corrected and properly addressed in our training cycles.

 

[jonjuan]

So, how long do you think the involuntary vacation will be for the SWA crew that took off from SFO 1L last night after only being cleared into position? And yes, an airplane landing 28L had to go around at the rather, em, urgent request of the tower controller. I'm sure the NASA form was filled out before touchdown but I'd like to know if a NASA report will save you from one like this.

Must have been the last leg of reaallly loonnngg day.

Don't Gulfstreams fly even loooonger days? Doubt he would post it anywhere if it happened to a fellow nji crew. Sounds a bit jealous of the SWA crew who, despite flying pax who earn 1/1000 of his pax, gets paid more than he does.

 

[MINIME]

It has almost happenend to me, I know of people whom it's happened to, I have witnessed it happening and I doubt that's the last time any of us will EVER make a mistake. Therefore, my best wishes to the crew and I hope they learn from it. I'm positive they'll never commit that same mistake again. I'm sure they're grateful none got hurt. I hope they get to move on and past this event.

 

[BoilerUP]

If they fill out timely ASAP reports, they likely will still get violated by the FAA but they won't have to serve any suspension of their certificates and the letter will go into an ASAP-specific file, which will be expunged after 2 years.

I believe any correction/warning letters issued under ASAP are not viewable by a PRIA request.

 

[Noserider76]

Not saying this is what happened by any means but I've noticed over the years that some of the best captains I've flown with go into a kind of slow down mode when rushed for any reason. It's easy to fall into the trap of letting others rush you. Whether it's a late operation, reroute, late numbers, ATC induced, new crew member, or just a slow bad crew member (me), they realize mistakes will happen when they're rushed and not feeling completely ahead of the game and they slow it down.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Several of you have clearly misunderstood. I was not casting aspersions on the crew in question. By pointing out they were probably on the last leg of a long day, I was attempting to give them the benefit of the doubt. I have done those reaaalllly looong daaayys, especially on the V/550 fleet and I know what fatigue can do to your hearing when you get a clearance. I think they call this one something like "anticipation error." I was seriously asking if anyone knew whether an ASAP might cover such an event. I hope it never happens to me or anybody else, either. I'd just like to know if filling out the ASAP for an incident such as this would be a waste of time.

As an aside, the controller's handoff to NORCAL actually left some question in our minds as to whether the crew made the error or she did. I bet the supervisor on duty was rewinding the tape before the wheels were in the well.

 

[gutshotdraw]

By the way Jon, no jealousy here. Had my chance at SWA and elected to stay where I'm at. Great company and I have lots of friends over there but they don't get to layover in Maui :beer:

 

[BoilerUP]

I'd just like to know if filling out the ASAP for an incident such as this would be a waste of time.

Not a waste at all; it just might save their certificates and their careers.

 

[Quiet Flight]

Zero days. ASAP

 

[Frap]

I believe any correction/warning letters issued under ASAP are not viewable by a PRIA request.

Where is this written?

 

[BoilerUP]

Where is this written?

I can't guarantee that statement is in either one of the links below because I don't have time this morning to review them, but I'd look in the top one first.

Beware - there is plenty FAA legalise...

Designation of Aviation Safety Action Program (ASAP) Information as Protected from Public Disclosure Under 14 CFR Part 193

This is the full AC about the ASAP program, in .pdf:

Advisory Circular 120-66B

 

[SteelerMan]

Zero days. ASAP

I agree, this will probably be accepted into ASAP with a letter of warning that goes away after a year. Airspace violations that I have knowledge of have been treated that way, and they were noted by atc during the flight.

 

[Occam's Razor]

The test case for this was our A319 that landing at Ellsworth AFB instead of Rapid City.

1. Not sole source.

2. Immunity status subject to the discretion of the ERC.

3. "Visibility" on PRIA based on #2.

CAUTION: Pure speculation ahead! If the SWA crew is "cooperative", they might not get time off. If not, or if the ERC is in a snotty mood...they'll have time to paint the family room.

ALPA bashers note: Our guys received immunity from the ERC because NWA pilots acted collectively via ALPA, and threatened to pull down the ASAP and FOQA programs if the incident wasn't classified "sole source". The crew screwed up, no question, but the chain-of-events that led to the boo boo were more important to us than their heads on a pike.

That message COULD have been delivered by a couple of pilots individually...but for some reason, managements tend to listen to large organized groups with a little more interest.