FAA Revokes the two NWA Pilots licenses

[JustaNumber]

Martha Stewart on the other hand........

It's ironic that you bring up Martha, as I was just thinking about how this case is remarkably similar to Martha's, both in terms of the reason for the media/public fascination for it, and the necessary government response.

If you think about it, both involved a person or persons who had a national reputation for always doing the right thing, being the perfect professionals, but then got caught doing the opposite, with a cavalier attitude that either the rules didn't apply to them, or that they would never get caught. Both lied in the initial investigation. It was like the fascination with pedophile priests; it just seems so contradictory.

The government response in both cases was completely necessary. If they hadn't thrown the book at Martha, giving just a wink and a nod at the insider trading, corruption in this country would have increased exponentially, and we would be well on the way to becoming Mexico. But now how many times have you heard Martha's example brought up when insider trading issues come up? Her example did more to keep corporate officers clean than thousands of pages of government regulations ever could have. Same goes for the pilots.

 

[Flopgut]

Are we all absolutely certain these two weren't slipped a sleep aid or something? The whole thing seems impossible to me. If this has already been broke down and discussed I missed it.

 

[flyguy67966]

Never ever talk to the police -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc&feature=player_embedded

Great video, it changed my outlook.

Agreed, thanks for sharing, this is great info.

 

[scoreboardII]

Are we all absolutely certain these two weren't slipped a sleep aid or something? The whole thing seems impossible to me. If this has already been broke down and discussed I missed it.

You mean impossible that they were slipped a sleep aid or maybe they were slipped one or something? Sorry, but they tesified they were on computers, do you have facts to back anything else?

 

[Flopgut]

Not necessarily. I think a toxicology report is in order. There have been some weird instances at my airline where things have proven to be not what we all thought.

 

[Pirate]

Not necessarily. I think a toxicology report is in order. There have been some weird instances at my airline where things have proven to be not what we all thought.

Maybe they were just dreaming about being on computers??

 

[AKAAB]

Maybe I'm missing something, but by what authority are they allowed to use the CVR against the pilots for enforcement purposes? There was no accident or incident. The only thing the NTSB has to work off of is a possible inability for a crewmember to be able to perform his duties. Otherwise, it's not even a reportable event, is it? (Looking for my NTSB regs...)

For all intents and purposes they got lost and recovered back to their original destination after sorting it all out. Send them home for 90 days, then wring them out in the sim. They'll be the safest pilots in the sky instead of the saddest pilots on the ground.

 

[Flopgut]

Maybe I'm missing something, but by what authority are they allowed to use the CVR against the pilots for enforcement purposes? There was no accident or incident. The only thing the NTSB has to work off of is a possible inability for a crewmember to be able to perform his duties. Otherwise, it's not even a reportable event, is it? (Looking for my NTSB regs...)

For all intents and purposes they got lost and recovered back to their original destination after sorting it all out. Send them home for 90 days, then wring them out in the sim. They'll be the safest pilots in the sky instead of the saddest pilots on the ground.

Great post!!

 

[Flopgut]

Some of the FAs at my airline are walking pharmacies. And they've done some dam awful things with their pills including one who gave zanex to a crying infant and another who date rape drugged an FO. I'm just saying: This scenario is getting checked out, right?

 

[jonjuan]

Agreed, thanks for sharing, this is great info.

Yeah, OK. Do you mean the example where he describes the attorney who is accused of assault, denies it, and yet admits that he "just put his hands to the throat of the gal, but didn't really mean it" gesture?
In the same vein, I can't wait to see these kids in Cali who raped this HS girl tell their attorney they didn't do it as they have no "proof."

 

[Poahi]

Maybe I'm missing something, but by what authority are they allowed to use the CVR against the pilots for enforcement purposes? There was no accident or incident.

1. The trial lawyers killed the idea that the CVR can only be used in the cases of accidents or incidents solely for determining the cause.

2. The revocation letter was based on facts surrounding the incident, not the CVR. The NTSB has no regulatory control over pilots.
3. This was an incident. FWIW

Circumstances like this will destroy any kind of privacy pilots have in the flight deck. We all will suffer from this.

 

[onewithwings]

We should all reserve judgment until all the investigation is over and all of the information is out.

I couldn't have said it better! Banter is healthy but keep it professional.

 

[Golden Falcon]

It would be a bit of a stretch to pull the fatigue card on the first leg after a 19 hour layover.

That being said, this all happened too fast for me. Wonder what the outcome would have been if it was not such a slow week in the media?

They lying may be hard to prove...but obstruction of justice?

Fatigue is a cumulative result of improper rest patterns, one might have had 48hrs off and still be fatigued...

 

[zonker]

Yeah, OK. Do you mean the example where he describes the attorney who is accused of assault, denies it, and yet admits that he "just put his hands to the throat of the gal, but didn't really mean it" gesture?
In the same vein, I can't wait to see these kids in Cali who raped this HS girl tell their attorney they didn't do it as they have no "proof."

That was the point of the video. Whether you are guilty or innocent, there is no positive outcome that can be derived from talking to the police.

 

[vetrider]

I hear and understand what you're saying. I bet many of us could have at some point in time let our guard down and the situation, under the wrong circumstances, could have gotten out of hand. Being human sucks sometimes.

That being said, if you were in charge at the FAA, and you honestly wanted to do the right thing, what would you have done?

I think the FAA did what it had to, in the interest of making an example of these guys. They had to show the public that they can trust the FAA to keep everyone safe, and they had to send a message to the rest of the piloting community that maintaining situational awareness is absolutely critical to flight safety. It's a shame that two people have to be made an example of, but hopefully the system will become a little safer as we are all reminded to keep our guard up a little more.

I hear and understand what you are saying as well. I just think it is sad, that's all. I wish something could have been done without completely ruining them.

 

[cynic]

Yeah, OK. Do you mean the example where he describes the attorney who is accused of assault, denies it, and yet admits that he "just put his hands to the throat of the gal, but didn't really mean it" gesture?
In the same vein, I can't wait to see these kids in Cali who raped this HS girl tell their attorney they didn't do it as they have no "proof."

Yes... That attorney would have been better off NOT talking to the police. Note**** I did not say he was right, nor that the police were wrong. The point is simply that it is never in YOUR best interest to talk to the police.

 

[Bringupthebird]

It wasn't poor judgment, it's willful disregard, the FAA has already agreed with that position.
QUOTE]

It was the FAA taking any opportunity it can to prove it isn't as cozy with the airlines as the Southwest case depicted them.

 

[scoreboardII]

speculation.

 

[SoberIrishman]

So, can we now say that we are done for a while with all the bitchn' that we "regional" pilots are incompetent, inexperienced, and "unprofessional" after TWO incidents of "MAJOR" screw-ups?
Hopefully the feds will begin to take a closer look at the rest of you all, and bring some down to size. Safe operations are paramount in this business, and this is a wake up call to everyone.

 

[rigger]

So, can we now say that we are done for a while with all the bitchn' that we "regional" pilots are incompetent, inexperienced, and "unprofessional" after TWO incidents of "MAJOR" screw-ups?
Hopefully the feds will begin to take a closer look at the rest of you all, and bring some down to size. Safe operations are paramount in this business, and this is a wake up call to everyone.

Hey hey go easy here it's really really tough for the BIG GREAT AMAZING Major types to take this kind of barrage!! You have to ween them into realizing they are not that different then the RJ pukes......they still are of the impression that they were hired when they were in another time and that we all must know they are GOD!!!!

Oh ya MESA SUCKS!!

 

[eaglesview]

So, can we now say that we are done for a while with all the bitchn' that we "regional" pilots are incompetent, inexperienced, and "unprofessional" after TWO incidents of "MAJOR" screw-ups?
Hopefully the feds will begin to take a closer look at the rest of you all, and bring some down to size. Safe operations are paramount in this business, and this is a wake up call to everyone.

Take a look where folks have actually died over the past few years scooter.

 

[rigger]

Take a look where folks have actually died over the past few years scooter.

See what I mean!!!! Go easy we can work them into this realization slowly!

 

[JumpersAway]

I bet I was asked a dozen times not to fly with my laptop out on this last three day trip. Seriously, I'm about to ring someone's neck here for spawning this kind of crap. No mercy on this one from me- they're getting what they deserve.

 

[ultrarunner]

Maybe I'm missing something, but by what authority are they allowed to use the CVR against the pilots for enforcement purposes? There was no accident or incident. The only thing the NTSB has to work off of is a possible inability for a crewmember to be able to perform his duties. Otherwise, it's not even a reportable event, is it? (Looking for my NTSB regs...)

Nothing in the revocation letter indicates that CVR data was used in the investigation to the point of the issuance of the revocation order.

The CVR data will ultimately be used in the criminal trial.

 

[svcta]

Take a look where folks have actually died over the past few years scooter.

I have no dog in this fight, but this is ridiculous. If you want to start playing this game you will lose. the fact is that there is blood on everyone's hands, so to speak.

Okay, so the last two events that you can think of were at regionals. Granted.

Will you also concede that before that was LIT and MDW, AA587, etc.? Each operated by a major airline?

We could do this all day. The regional airline fleet in the US accounts for just a shade over 50% of airline departures. You all have an equal opportunity to kill people, and likely do so equally. Move on......

 

[aussieflyboy]

Take a look where folks have actually died over the past few years scooter.

Sorry, that doesn't hold water...

Do you think it's OK to violate SOP's when the violation doesn't lead to a disaster?

Is it OK to fly below the MDA on an approach - if there's no terrain in the way and you didn't crash?

Is it OK to say you've got the airport visual when you don't - if there happens to not be any traffic in the area and you don't crash?

Is it OK to take off from a runway without verifying the performance data - because that particular time the runway happened to be long enough and you didn't crash?

FAR's and SOP's are in place not just to avoid disaster but to avoid situations where disaster could occur. I think someone as experienced as yourself should know that it's not enough to just look at the outcome. Once you get yourself in a situation in which the outcome is beyond your control then you're leaving the door open for a disaster to occur...

 

[Corbon]

Take a look where folks have actually died over the past few years scooter.

If you want to use that argument, how about looking at the last few decades? Your move, "scooter".

 

[rumrnr78]

I hear and understand what you are saying as well. I just think it is sad, that's all. I wish something could have been done without completely ruining them.

Are you really serious? They should have their tickets pulled without question! Not sure what bar your setting but to quote Dennis Miller, " I haven't seen a bar that low since a dwarf's wake".
Enjoy your dementia.

 

[crashpad]

I bet I was asked a dozen times not to fly with my laptop out on this last three day trip. No mercy on this one from me- they're getting what they deserve.

The damage done by these yahoos is irreversible. The NTSB NASA Report will not save their butts because their neglect was a result of deliberate violations....if you believe they weren't asleep.
The truth could've saved these guys, but like so many in todays' culture, they pulled a "Slick Willie" and thought they could skate away.

As for the little guys who think they're operating on the same level of safety:
Statistically, you are twice as likely to die on a regional flight as a major one. And it's not because of substandard equipment.
Sorry but those are facts, sport.
You're flying highly advanced shiney jets that can get away from you faster than girls who find out you still live at home. Maybe someday when you're all growed-up, you'll get a shot to play with the big boys. Until then, keep your head down (just not in your co-pilots lap), lose the 'tude', and for Gods sake take off your sunglasses indoors and remove the eppaulets when you're not at work.

 

[mesaba13]

Not last week Chief!