FAA Revokes the two NWA Pilots licenses

[145BOSS]

Just out of curiosity, did they revoke all of their certificate privileges or just Commercial/ATP privileges?

 

[Bavarian Chef]

We should all reserve judgment until all the investigation is over and all of the information is out.

This comment makes no sense, given what they themselves have told investigators. Are you telling me that we as professional pilots should be given the kind of latitude that would result in not monitoring your progress and radios for such a long period of time?

Seriously, shouldn't they get their pepes spanked? For the good of the entire profession?

 

[Dubya]

Everyone that believes they missed all of those calls and chimes for over an hour due to looking at a laptop....please PM me about several prime real estate opportunities. Some of these include magnificent bridges and treasure maps.

 

[crj567]

Sure isn't. Especially when the FBI is asking the questions. You have GOT to come clean when the FBI asks you a question. Simple as that!

That is not what Gen Lee told me when I started asking about the goat wearing a dress in his backyard......

-He stated something about a date, then "it is none of your business-get back to flying that RJ to LBB!"

 

[crj567]

Just out of curiosity, did they revoke all of their certificate privileges or just Commercial/ATP privileges?

Dude- No offense-honestly-but what difference does it make? These guys are hosed!

 

[pipers]

Great point. If they lied, the outcome is much worse. Admit to sleeping, pull the fatigue card and try to improve rest/duty requirement, get terminated for inexusable behavior in the flight deck. 1 year later when public forgets, ALPA gets their jobs back. Honesty is always the best policy.

It would be a bit of a stretch to pull the fatigue card on the first leg after a 19 hour layover.

That being said, this all happened too fast for me. Wonder what the outcome would have been if it was not such a slow week in the media?

They lying may be hard to prove...but obstruction of justice?

 

[satpak77]

Yes, it is a felony. I'm not sure what class of felony in Minnesota, but it is a felony.

It is a federal offense in all of USA to lie during a federal investigation, whether it is before NTSB, FBI, or Congress, or to your IRS tax man. The code is here.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00001001----000-.html

It does NOT require a "sworn statement" or "oath" however that will of course help the case. If you are clearly participating in a "official" inquiry, you must tell the truth. Or "unable to comment per my Attorney".

They should have immediately retained an attorney, and not given ANY statements to the media like the FO did.

If evidence comes to light that they lied, they can be criminally indicted by a Grand Jury, the threshold for indictment being much lower than "beyond a reasonable doubt" required for guilty verdict in a trial. You can indict a ham sandwich.

Sad day

 

[aussieflyboy]

Aussie, Sounds like you are a perfect pilot based off of your responses on this subject. With all of the experience you have you should be at a much higher level of a aviation career than you've reached. God help you if you ever make any mistakes because you will be crucified as you obviously believe these pilots should be.

What the heck??

Why would you make a comment like that? Because I (and most others) agree that they were sleeping then it makes me high-and-mighty and I somehow think I'm immune to making a mistake.... WRONG, I never made any comments even close to insinuating that.

Here's what I'm saying. It's clear to me that these guys were asleep, and then lied to cover it up. If I make a mistake (and I do from time to time) it's not because I was willfully disobeying FAR's and SOP's (as these guys claim to have done with their laptop story).

If I ever make the news for doing something stupid you can bet I won't lie about it and invent some story that I think doesn't sound as bad as what actually happened.

How you go from that to somehow me having Chuck Yeager syndrome is beyond me, I think you might need to re-evaluate your interpretation of the comments I made, sir.

 

[Dubya]

What the heck??

Why would you make a comment like that? Because I (and most others) agree that they were sleeping then it makes me high-and-mighty and I somehow think I'm immune to making a mistake.... WRONG, I never made any comments even close to insinuating that.

Here's what I'm saying. It's clear to me that these guys were asleep, and then lied to cover it up. If I make a mistake (and I do from time to time) it's not because I was willfully disobeying FAR's and SOP's (as these guys claim to have done with their laptop story).

If I ever make the news for doing something stupid you can bet I won't lie about it and invent some story that I think doesn't sound as bad as what actually happened.

How you go from that to somehow me having Chuck Yeager syndrome is beyond me, I think you might need to re-evaluate your interpretation of the comments I made, sir.

You'll have to excuse AA>> and the rest of the major airline boys that have been basking in all of their experienced glory post Colgan and Comair.
Seems a little luck has intervened to keep their mishaps non-lethal.

 

[HawkerF/O]

Yes, it is a felony. I'm not sure what class of felony in Minnesota, but it is a felony.

Because they would be federal charges, the state in which it took place does not govern the class. The Fed has 1 code. A class A felony is a class a whether the crime took place in Alaska or Arkansas. Location makes no difference.

If it were a crime against the state, then the respective state's law would apply, and as you know, they differ from state to state.

 

[Tref]

Lots of new info, but is that really an excuse?? They didn't miss just one radio call. They missed over an hour's worth and forgot to fly the fu#king plane! While I feel bad for them and their families, they screwed up royally and put us all in a bad light....at least until the public forgets about it.

I agree that they put us in a bad light, but the NTSB didn't have to release self disclosed information before an investigation is finished.

We don't know how accurate any of the information from our trusty news media is. We should really wait until all of the info is know before we get out the ropes.

 

[Tref]

This comment makes no sense, given what they themselves have told investigators. Are you telling me that we as professional pilots should be given the kind of latitude that would result in not monitoring your progress and radios for such a long period of time?

Seriously, shouldn't they get their pepes spanked? For the good of the entire profession?

What I'm saying is that right now, we don't know what information is correct and that we should wait until the investigation is finished before we hang anyone.

 

[ultrarunner]

Because they would be federal charges, the state in which it took place does not govern the class. The Fed has 1 code. A class A felony is a class a whether the crime took place in Alaska or Arkansas. Location makes no difference.

If it were a crime against the state, then the respective state's law would apply, and as you know, they differ from state to state.

That's right...been a while...Federal chage.....thanks.

Ultra

 

[dondk]

I agree that they put us in a bad light, but the NTSB didn't have to release self disclosed information before an investigation is finished.

We don't know how accurate any of the information from our trusty news media is. We should really wait until all of the info is know before we get out the ropes.

Sadly, we don't have to trust the info from the news media. As pilots we know how the system works. How many have ever seen or heard of an emergency revocation in a matter of days. The FAA nor the NTSB ever moves that fast. One or the other has something, enough to warrant a revocation. Others have the rope and are hanging these guys, not us.

The NTSB will hear the emergency revocation against the pilots, that is more than likely when the truth will come out if not sooner.

All this did, it made it very easy for the company to terminate them. These guys have bigger problems and I doubt we have heard it all.

 

[exeagle]

What I'm saying is that right now, we don't know what information is correct and that we should wait until the investigation is finished before we hang anyone.

I do understand your point....the media can really twist the facts. I still don't see what would be a valid excuse in this case, however. The bottom line is that this could have ended up very bloody. Luckily it didn't....Whether sleeping or messing with the laptop...doesn't really matter, does it? They neglected to do their primary job up there, keeping the passengers and crew safe.

 

[stall022]

They didn't have to claim fatigue, All they had to do was claim sleep apnea just as the Mesa/GO captain did. At the most they would have lost their medicals for 6 months while they underwent treatment and they probably would have been put on medical leave from NW.

 

[jehtplane]

If it turns out they lied to the Feds it will be a big black eye on all pilots.

It already is my friend, whether they lied or not.

 

[Fly91]

How come everyone assumes they lied?

Are you joking or what???

They had to lie. They weren't about hang themselves instantly by saying what really happened......they fell asleep. They had to try to get out of it somehow.

I don't condone what they did with their laptops, but I can understand it.

Hope I never fly on your plane.

Not only have they changed our procedures a bunch of times, with multiple, sometimes unclear revisions to the changes, but everything else has changed; Our contract (think work rules), our bidding, our vacation, our benefits, our uniforms. We have two different company id numbers, about a dozen different websites to remember with passwords for each one. It just goes on and on and I know many of us are experiencing merger fatigue.

Who cares. Live with it or quit. Argue about it or talk about it on the ground.

We should all reserve judgment until all the investigation is over and all of the information is out.

If they fell asleep....they should get completely revoked for life.

If they were on their computers and missed multiple radio calls with pissed off controllers yelling and them and trying to have other planes relay radio calls.........they should get completely revoked for life. And win the 2009 Darwin Award. AND go to prison for knowingly endangering the lives of hundreds of people.

If they were arguing about company policy for 150 miles and missed radio calls, they are 100% incompitent morons.....they should get completely revoked for life.

Anyway you slice this one.......they are useless and need to go.

Those two idiots fell asleep at the same time. They lied to try to get out of it. They are now grounded as they should be. Now they won't kill a bunch of people.

Simple.

 

[Fly91]

They didn't have to claim fatigue, All they had to do was claim sleep apnea just as the Mesa/GO captain did. At the most they would have lost their medicals for 6 months while they underwent treatment and they probably would have been put on medical leave from NW.

\

Both of them claiming the same ailment at the same time on the same flight???? I don't think so. And if they do they probably didn't report that on their last medical visit, so they would get burned right there.

There is absolutely no way out of this one. And when they woke up finally because of the FA banging on the door and calling them....they couldn't even use the excuse that their radios failed, because then they should have just done the old 7600 and landed. BUT....waiting till your 150 miles past destination to do that procedure....incompetence gets you so you need to be revoked.

They lose no matter which way they and their attorneys want to play it.

 

[Eagle757shark]

Aussie, Sounds like you are a perfect pilot based off of your responses on this subject. With all of the experience you have you should be at a much higher level of a aviation career than you've reached. God help you if you ever make any mistakes because you will be crucified as you obviously believe these pilots should be.

WHOA there mister!!!! These guys didn't make a mistake, they intentionally put the lives of the passengers and their fellow crewmembers in danger because they were NOT DOING THEIR JOBS! Yes we all make mistakes as aviators. If this were a mistake, then I would be the first to say the punishment doesn't fit the crime! But I can't help thinking, what if my mother or father or wife and kids were in the back of that aircraft? How would I feel? I would be pissed and damn mad that these fools put my families lives purposely at risk. FOLKS we all make mistakes, but where the HELL is the damn accountability. These guys should have known better! Spare me the lecture about senority and all the damn protections we THINK we are entitled too. If this story is true, they were wrong. I've talked with other pilots and tried to envision on a domestic route that they have probable done many times, how you don't know you have to make at least ONE radio call. Personally, I don't believe their story. I think something else was going on. I believe the FAA and NTSB think the same. We may never know. But something smells funny about this whole thing. But that is their story and it is a pretty damn lame one if you ask me. We have to demand better of our profession if we want others to take us seriously. We are constantly BITCHING about how management has taken more from us. NO, we as PILOTS have done it to ourselves. Then we try to justify silly actions by a few! As a professional airline pilot that loves his job, this was an embarrassment!

 

[no1pilot2000]

Live and learn....

... and move onward. As a result of this incident, the airline industry has been given a "black eye". There will be the usual congressional hearings...bla...bla....bla... and and so-on.

 

[Beaver79]

I'm not saying ALPA has any power over the FAA. What I am saying is I suspect ALPA legal could/should have told them to shut their mouth, THEN counseled them on what to say. ie the TRUTH. Any lawyer could have advised them better than what they actually did.

These days it seems prudent that our first phone call should be to the one on the orange card, or a lawyer before we speak to ANY official.

That I agree with. Silence is golden. Waiting until you have legal counsel before answering any question is always a good idea. Obviouly we are hearing things second-hand. I wonder what the first words were between the pilots and the police officers...

 

[Kharma Police]

Well, at least this takes the heat of the Delta crew that landed on the taxiway........

 

[sat74]

Where were the stewardesses during this incident and why were they not checking in with the cockpit every 30 minutes or so (answer: hiding out in the galley with their People magazine shoving a brownie in their fat face)??? Sorry, but if they are going to terminate the pilots, then the stews need to go as well.

 

[mesaserf]

I imagine it happened something like this.

CA: Hey! I just got the latest season of Dancing With the Stars on DVD!

F/O COOL! I've got my ear buds and a splitter so we can both watch at the same time!

CA: OOH! (giggle) Let's do each others nails while we watch!

F/O: Great! This is so much fun...It's like a pajama party at FL390!

P.S. All fooling aside. I know guys who do this on trans cons. I will not because it does a serious number on your situational awareness and sense of time. Have any of you guys ever had an appointment with the girl friend and zoned out watching ESPN? Just imagine doing that at cruise covering 9 miles every sixty seconds.

'Nuff said.

 

[Kharma Police]

Where were the stewardesses during this incident and why were they not checking in with the cockpit every 30 minutes or so (answer: hiding out in the galley with their People magazine shoving a brownie in their fat face)??? Sorry, but if they are going to terminate the pilots, then the stews need to go as well.

Sure, just what we need, galley captains.

 

[vetrider]

The pilot who condemns loudest and hardest is the one I would be more suspect of personally. Condemning these guys does no good. Maybe they did screw up, but think about it. Those guys are no different than any of us.

Just like the accident pilot who didn't get up planning to be in an accident, these two guys didn't get up figuring this would happen. They were selected and trained and checked and monitored just like airline pilots everywhere, just like us.

It's just plain sad, my heart breaks for these guys.

 

[Kharma Police]

The pilot who condemns loudest and hardest is the one I would be more suspect of personally. Maybe they did screw up, but think about it. Those guys are no different than any of us.

Just like the accident pilot who didn't get up planning to be in an accident, these two guys didn't get up figuring this would happen. They were selected and trained and checked and monitored just like airline pilots everywhere, just like us.

It's just plain sad, my heart breaks for these guys.

True dat, very well said. There but for the grace of Jah go I.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

First off, what these guys did was stooopid and unprofessional but the punishment does not fit the crime. This is a kneejerk reaction to save face for the FAA. Should they get a suspension, time off and a fine?? Absofreakinglutly. But revocation, no freaking way. Lets look at some recent
accidents/incidents over the last few years. AA in LIT, Capt is dead and the Fo survived. Is the FO still at AA and if so why no termination or revocation? How about the two guys in BDL? How about the SW Mdw boys, or Burbank, Lcc yahoo shooting his gun, the UAL FO and crew of 4 that could not handle an engine failure in SFO, and the numerous FDX accidents over the last few years. Are any of these pilots still employed? If so, then this punishment is too severe.

 

[Headfake14]

I totally agree....punishment does NOT fit the crime here. They could have also been studying the USA Today...no difference if it was a laptop. Except...yes...no earbuds required for a USA Today.