FAA Revokes the two NWA Pilots licenses

[ultrarunner]

You don't have to say a word to the FBI. "I refuse to answer this question because it may self-incriminate me."

There is never (not once) a good reason to talk to a law enforcement officer when they are after your heiney. It's not like they're going to take your excuses and say, "Oh, ok. Never mind."

Yeah, chatting it up with the FBI when they landed was not a good thing.

 

[S40Sailor]

They did fall asleep... then lied about it. 1 1/2 hours of no communication and not once peeking at their MFD to see where they were? Because they were on a laptop? Do they take us for idiots?

Aussie it's a ND, Airbus had not foresee the use of a Multi Function just yet.
Its an old aircraft after all.
On a other note, imagine if they had lower the overhead speakers volume in order to better hear a presentation, let's call it a power point, in case someone other than a pilot would read this. I am sure you could also say,
A compact sound system can easily fit in an overnight bag, in order to enhance the presentation, A Home theater experience if you will.

 

[Beaver79]

If true. Interesting they thought arguing or distracted by a laptop was somehow better than admitting to sleeping.

I wonder if they had kept their mouths SHUT and spoken to ALPA legal what the outcome would have been?

The FAA doesn't answer to ALPA...ALPA answers to the FAA. If they were questioned by federal investigators and found to be lying, I doubt ALPA would have been much help. Even if they were sleeping (as opposed to watching Super Troopers on the 19" MAC screen which apparently blocked the MFD) I don't think ALPA would do much to keep the FAA at bay in this case. The FAA cited "failing to heed instructions and operating an aircraft recklessly" - that leaves little room for sleeping or heated discussions. The politics of this situation make it tough on the pilots in question, ALPA, and for that matter, all of us airline guys and gals. Good luck to both of them - they are going to need it.

 

[flynryan15]

If you are on the wrong end of the questions from any law enforcement your only answer should be I am not refusing to cooperate. However I will not answer any of your questions until I consult my attorney and have him/her present.

 

[Flying the Line]

If it turns out they lied to the Feds it will be a big black eye on all pilots.

 

[GogglesPisano]

...ALPA answers to the FAA. .

How so?

 

[AAPilot]

They did fall asleep... then lied about it. 1 1/2 hours of no communication and not once peeking at their MFD to see where they were? Because they were on a laptop? Do they take us for idiots?

Aussie, Sounds like you are a perfect pilot based off of your responses on this subject. With all of the experience you have you should be at a much higher level of a aviation career than you've reached. God help you if you ever make any mistakes because you will be crucified as you obviously believe these pilots should be.

 

[Tref]

How come everyone assumes they lied?

I don't condone what they did with their laptops, but I can understand it. We've been tsunamied at Delta-North with information from this merger. It's alot of work just changing the pages with all of the revisions we get, let alone trying to figure out what it all means.

Not only have they changed our procedures a bunch of times, with multiple, sometimes unclear revisions to the changes, but everything else has changed; Our contract (think work rules), our bidding, our vacation, our benefits, our uniforms. We have two different company id numbers, about a dozen different websites to remember with passwords for each one. It just goes on and on and I know many of us are experiencing merger fatigue.

It doesn't mean that they should have been trying to figure something out on their laptops when they were flying, but I understand, not only the impatience to resolve one of the many issues we are dealing with, but also the burnout that many are currently experiencing that could cause someone to miss a radio call.

We should all reserve judgment until all the investigation is over and all of the information is out.

 

[COOPERVANE]

The FAA doesn't answer to ALPA...ALPA answers to the FAA. If they were questioned by federal investigators and found to be lying, I doubt ALPA would have been much help. Even if they were sleeping (as opposed to watching Super Troopers on the 19" MAC screen which apparently blocked the MFD) I don't think ALPA would do much to keep the FAA at bay in this case. The FAA cited "failing to heed instructions and operating an aircraft recklessly" - that leaves little room for sleeping or heated discussions. The politics of this situation make it tough on the pilots in question, ALPA, and for that matter, all of us airline guys and gals. Good luck to both of them - they are going to need it.

I'm not saying ALPA has any power over the FAA. What I am saying is I suspect ALPA legal could/should have told them to shut their mouth, THEN counseled them on what to say. ie the TRUTH. Any lawyer could have advised them better than what they actually did.

These days it seems prudent that our first phone call should be to the one on the orange card, or a lawyer before we speak to ANY official.

 

[exeagle]

How come everyone assumes they lied?

I don't condone what they did with their laptops, but I can understand it. We've been tsunamied at Delta-North with information from this merger. It's alot of work just changing the pages with all of the revisions we get, let alone trying to figure out what it all means.

Not only have they changed our procedures a bunch of times, with multiple, sometimes unclear revisions to the changes, but everything else has changed; Our contract (think work rules), our bidding, our vacation, our benefits, our uniforms. We have two different company id numbers, about a dozen different websites to remember with passwords for each one. It just goes on and on and I know many of us are experiencing merger fatigue.

It doesn't mean that they should have been trying to figure something out on their laptops when they were flying, but I understand, not only the impatience to resolve one of the many issues we are dealing with, but also the burnout that many are currently experiencing that could cause someone to miss a radio call.

We should all reserve judgment until all the investigation is over and all of the information is out.

Lots of new info, but is that really an excuse?? They didn't miss just one radio call. They missed over an hour's worth and forgot to fly the fu#king plane! While I feel bad for them and their families, they screwed up royally and put us all in a bad light....at least until the public forgets about it.

 

[145BOSS]

Just out of curiosity, did they revoke all of their certificate privileges or just Commercial/ATP privileges?

 

[Bavarian Chef]

We should all reserve judgment until all the investigation is over and all of the information is out.

This comment makes no sense, given what they themselves have told investigators. Are you telling me that we as professional pilots should be given the kind of latitude that would result in not monitoring your progress and radios for such a long period of time?

Seriously, shouldn't they get their pepes spanked? For the good of the entire profession?

 

[Dubya]

Everyone that believes they missed all of those calls and chimes for over an hour due to looking at a laptop....please PM me about several prime real estate opportunities. Some of these include magnificent bridges and treasure maps.

 

[crj567]

Sure isn't. Especially when the FBI is asking the questions. You have GOT to come clean when the FBI asks you a question. Simple as that!

That is not what Gen Lee told me when I started asking about the goat wearing a dress in his backyard......

-He stated something about a date, then "it is none of your business-get back to flying that RJ to LBB!"

 

[crj567]

Just out of curiosity, did they revoke all of their certificate privileges or just Commercial/ATP privileges?

Dude- No offense-honestly-but what difference does it make? These guys are hosed!

 

[pipers]

Great point. If they lied, the outcome is much worse. Admit to sleeping, pull the fatigue card and try to improve rest/duty requirement, get terminated for inexusable behavior in the flight deck. 1 year later when public forgets, ALPA gets their jobs back. Honesty is always the best policy.

It would be a bit of a stretch to pull the fatigue card on the first leg after a 19 hour layover.

That being said, this all happened too fast for me. Wonder what the outcome would have been if it was not such a slow week in the media?

They lying may be hard to prove...but obstruction of justice?

 

[satpak77]

Yes, it is a felony. I'm not sure what class of felony in Minnesota, but it is a felony.

It is a federal offense in all of USA to lie during a federal investigation, whether it is before NTSB, FBI, or Congress, or to your IRS tax man. The code is here.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00001001----000-.html

It does NOT require a "sworn statement" or "oath" however that will of course help the case. If you are clearly participating in a "official" inquiry, you must tell the truth. Or "unable to comment per my Attorney".

They should have immediately retained an attorney, and not given ANY statements to the media like the FO did.

If evidence comes to light that they lied, they can be criminally indicted by a Grand Jury, the threshold for indictment being much lower than "beyond a reasonable doubt" required for guilty verdict in a trial. You can indict a ham sandwich.

Sad day

 

[aussieflyboy]

Aussie, Sounds like you are a perfect pilot based off of your responses on this subject. With all of the experience you have you should be at a much higher level of a aviation career than you've reached. God help you if you ever make any mistakes because you will be crucified as you obviously believe these pilots should be.

What the heck??

Why would you make a comment like that? Because I (and most others) agree that they were sleeping then it makes me high-and-mighty and I somehow think I'm immune to making a mistake.... WRONG, I never made any comments even close to insinuating that.

Here's what I'm saying. It's clear to me that these guys were asleep, and then lied to cover it up. If I make a mistake (and I do from time to time) it's not because I was willfully disobeying FAR's and SOP's (as these guys claim to have done with their laptop story).

If I ever make the news for doing something stupid you can bet I won't lie about it and invent some story that I think doesn't sound as bad as what actually happened.

How you go from that to somehow me having Chuck Yeager syndrome is beyond me, I think you might need to re-evaluate your interpretation of the comments I made, sir.

 

[Dubya]

What the heck??

Why would you make a comment like that? Because I (and most others) agree that they were sleeping then it makes me high-and-mighty and I somehow think I'm immune to making a mistake.... WRONG, I never made any comments even close to insinuating that.

Here's what I'm saying. It's clear to me that these guys were asleep, and then lied to cover it up. If I make a mistake (and I do from time to time) it's not because I was willfully disobeying FAR's and SOP's (as these guys claim to have done with their laptop story).

If I ever make the news for doing something stupid you can bet I won't lie about it and invent some story that I think doesn't sound as bad as what actually happened.

How you go from that to somehow me having Chuck Yeager syndrome is beyond me, I think you might need to re-evaluate your interpretation of the comments I made, sir.

You'll have to excuse AA>> and the rest of the major airline boys that have been basking in all of their experienced glory post Colgan and Comair.
Seems a little luck has intervened to keep their mishaps non-lethal.

 

[HawkerF/O]

Yes, it is a felony. I'm not sure what class of felony in Minnesota, but it is a felony.

Because they would be federal charges, the state in which it took place does not govern the class. The Fed has 1 code. A class A felony is a class a whether the crime took place in Alaska or Arkansas. Location makes no difference.

If it were a crime against the state, then the respective state's law would apply, and as you know, they differ from state to state.