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F15 Vs F16
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Irrelevant arguement, unless we have another war between the states and the ANG units go at each other. Highly unlikely, in my view.
Both are excellent airplanes. Against our current potential enemies, we out-class them in both terms of machine and pilot. Air supreamacy is job one and that's usually taken care of in a couple of hours. Then on it's a strategic/tactical bombing campaign. My d**k is bigger than your d**k arguements usually conclude with everyone being a big d**k.
Both are excellent airplanes. Against our current potential enemies, we out-class them in both terms of machine and pilot. Air supreamacy is job one and that's usually taken care of in a couple of hours. Then on it's a strategic/tactical bombing campaign. My d**k is bigger than your d**k arguements usually conclude with everyone being a big d**k.
Mud Eagle
Aviator
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2001
- Posts
- 516
Re: FB-15
Why would you want to go low? Three words: Double Digit SAMs. If you're marching into Afghanistan with it's two SA-2s and one inoperable SA-3 in the *entire* country, it's an easy choice to waltz in at medium altitude. See what the JFACC decides the plan is, though, if we ever decide to go into a country with a real IADS. Pick up Jane's and look at who owns the SA-10, SA-12, and SA-20, and tell me how you'd feel about going in medium altitude against those countries before we throw 300 Tomahawks and CALCMs at them. I bet it's in the weeds and at night.
Everything that the 15E can do with less people? Don't make me laugh.
First of all, regardless of what C-model and Viper pukes say, there are no style points lost by having two dudes in the airplane. If you think differently, ask Robin Olds and Steve Ritchie about it and see what they say.
Second, did you miss that whole part about dropping Paveway IIIs from the weeds and shooting AGM-130s in my previous post? How many BLU-113 Bunker Busters did Vipers drop in WW-Kosovo and OEF? Oh, yeah...none, because they can't. How about a low-alt GBU-24 self guide or launching and guiding an AGM-130? Can't be done with one person, friend, and thus can't be done in the Fighting Falcon, heh heh. It's got nothing to do with not being manly enough to handle it alone...it's got everything to do with task management. You can't avoid the rocks, react to the threats, *and* guide the weapons. That's why Vipers don't fly low with LANTIRN and drop LGBs anymore.
Nice try, but no dice.
Again, I respect that the Viper is good at the mission it was designed for. Just as the Strike Eagle is very good at the mission *it* was designed for.
RueterF16 said:
Why would you want to go low? Three words: Double Digit SAMs. If you're marching into Afghanistan with it's two SA-2s and one inoperable SA-3 in the *entire* country, it's an easy choice to waltz in at medium altitude. See what the JFACC decides the plan is, though, if we ever decide to go into a country with a real IADS. Pick up Jane's and look at who owns the SA-10, SA-12, and SA-20, and tell me how you'd feel about going in medium altitude against those countries before we throw 300 Tomahawks and CALCMs at them. I bet it's in the weeds and at night.
Everything that the 15E can do with less people? Don't make me laugh.
First of all, regardless of what C-model and Viper pukes say, there are no style points lost by having two dudes in the airplane. If you think differently, ask Robin Olds and Steve Ritchie about it and see what they say.
Second, did you miss that whole part about dropping Paveway IIIs from the weeds and shooting AGM-130s in my previous post? How many BLU-113 Bunker Busters did Vipers drop in WW-Kosovo and OEF? Oh, yeah...none, because they can't. How about a low-alt GBU-24 self guide or launching and guiding an AGM-130? Can't be done with one person, friend, and thus can't be done in the Fighting Falcon, heh heh. It's got nothing to do with not being manly enough to handle it alone...it's got everything to do with task management. You can't avoid the rocks, react to the threats, *and* guide the weapons. That's why Vipers don't fly low with LANTIRN and drop LGBs anymore.
Nice try, but no dice.
Again, I respect that the Viper is good at the mission it was designed for. Just as the Strike Eagle is very good at the mission *it* was designed for.
Toro
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2001
- Posts
- 138
Since Mud Eagle has shacked all the factual info, I'll offer up some good natured ribbing -
F-16 bumper stickers seen lately...
Lean, Mean, Flameout Machine.
I SHALL RETURN... Well, I might.
Mach Nix.
The F-16. Takes a licking, and takes a licking.
Have you hugged your chute today?
This Vehicle Makes Frequent Stops.
I came. I saw. I bingo'd.
No deposit, no return.
We've spent so much money on this thing, we can't afford to admit that we were wrong.
A triumph of style over substance.
The best darn second place fighter in the world.
Instead of a CAS mod, we're going to install a roll bar.
And now, with this LANTIRN thing and our new Block 40s, we can hit the ground at NIGHT!
We cover the target like a thong bikini.
And BINGO is my Name-O.
We crash more airplanes before 9-o'clock than most people crash all day.
Your courtesy appreciated. Please replace your divots.
A war record exceeding even the B-1's.
Last in the talent show but first in the swimsuit competition.
Lose a few…lose a few.
Feet and knees together, eyes on the horizon...
Designated no-hitter.
Everything you wanted in a fighter…and less.
Optimist: F-16 pilot who is afraid of dying from cancer.
Only Michael Jackson is more manly.
Hey, today we didn't lose a single jet.
This is going to hurt me more than it's going to hurt you.
User friendly... if you've got three hands.
If we have a war with BDUs, we've got 'em beat.
Careful, Badguys... I'm carrying BOTH bombs today. I'm talkin' wall-to-wall MK-84s pal.
If I carried more weapons, and if I had enough gas, and if...I could actually hit the target, and if had some REALLY expensive electronics so I could find you, and if my motor didn't quit, and if my wings didn't crack, boy, I'd really teach you a lesson!
F-16 bumper stickers seen lately...
Lean, Mean, Flameout Machine.
I SHALL RETURN... Well, I might.
Mach Nix.
The F-16. Takes a licking, and takes a licking.
Have you hugged your chute today?
This Vehicle Makes Frequent Stops.
I came. I saw. I bingo'd.
No deposit, no return.
We've spent so much money on this thing, we can't afford to admit that we were wrong.
A triumph of style over substance.
The best darn second place fighter in the world.
Instead of a CAS mod, we're going to install a roll bar.
And now, with this LANTIRN thing and our new Block 40s, we can hit the ground at NIGHT!
We cover the target like a thong bikini.
And BINGO is my Name-O.
We crash more airplanes before 9-o'clock than most people crash all day.
Your courtesy appreciated. Please replace your divots.
A war record exceeding even the B-1's.
Last in the talent show but first in the swimsuit competition.
Lose a few…lose a few.
Feet and knees together, eyes on the horizon...
Designated no-hitter.
Everything you wanted in a fighter…and less.
Optimist: F-16 pilot who is afraid of dying from cancer.
Only Michael Jackson is more manly.
Hey, today we didn't lose a single jet.
This is going to hurt me more than it's going to hurt you.
User friendly... if you've got three hands.
If we have a war with BDUs, we've got 'em beat.
Careful, Badguys... I'm carrying BOTH bombs today. I'm talkin' wall-to-wall MK-84s pal.
If I carried more weapons, and if I had enough gas, and if...I could actually hit the target, and if had some REALLY expensive electronics so I could find you, and if my motor didn't quit, and if my wings didn't crack, boy, I'd really teach you a lesson!
av8instyle
Above Average Member
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2002
- Posts
- 427
Mud Eagle
Aviator
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2001
- Posts
- 516
It's funny that Viper dudes seem to be the first ones to initiate a d-ck measuring contest....
...and always the ones to say "just kidding, man!" or "I was just doing it to get a rise from you (sts) Ego drivers" when they can't respond with an actual argument.
Maybe it's because they fly a toy jet?
Hey, all kidding aside, Rueter and av8, do you guys still fly your little fighter with the AFRES or ANG?
...and always the ones to say "just kidding, man!" or "I was just doing it to get a rise from you (sts) Ego drivers" when they can't respond with an actual argument.
Maybe it's because they fly a toy jet?
Hey, all kidding aside, Rueter and av8, do you guys still fly your little fighter with the AFRES or ANG?
RueterF16
Active member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2001
- Posts
- 40
Mud Eagle
I'm retired,
Since last year, If there was a good reserve unit around flying either jet, I would be there in a heartbeat. Unfortunately there aren't that many around.... I suppose I could always go fly tankers. But, maybe I'll wait until the 767 comes on board...
By the way, I flown both airframes, and I prefer the flight characteristics of the Viper. Not that there is anything really wrong with the Eagle. I just like to hank your chains (STS).
I'm retired,
Since last year, If there was a good reserve unit around flying either jet, I would be there in a heartbeat. Unfortunately there aren't that many around.... I suppose I could always go fly tankers. But, maybe I'll wait until the 767 comes on board...
By the way, I flown both airframes, and I prefer the flight characteristics of the Viper. Not that there is anything really wrong with the Eagle. I just like to hank your chains (STS).
I don't believe I made any disparaging remarks re: the Fighting Falcon. I merely pointed out the stellar combat record of the F-15C. You can take all the shots you want, but I know of no time when an enemy 'leaker" got through an Eagle formation to wreak havoc on a strike package, (or even cause them to lean, for that matter). I know of no instance when a tanker, AWACS, Compass Call, RJ, U-2 or any other HVAA got bagged when Eagles manned the HVAA CAP. I'm fairly certain no Fencers, Frogfeet or any other air-to-ground bandit ever slipped through an Eagle CAP to drop ordnance on our troops in the rear (sts). And if any of you guys ever suited up for the "real deal", I bet it made you feel better to know there was an 8-ship of Eagles out front led by a couple of patch wearers. As far as the "ego" thing, I also never met an Eagle driver who didn't understand that Air Superiority is mission support. Sending frag and an overpressure wave through a gomer's kitchen is the primary objective. And I for one was always happy to help.
av8instyle
Above Average Member
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2002
- Posts
- 427
Guard/reserve
Yep, I've been in the Guard for about 5 years. I'm flying the Block 30 Big mouth. It's pretty sweet these days. We've got SCU-4, SADL, GSP coupled with the RLG's, Litening II Pods, and a bunch of other good avioonics. We like to call it a block 39 because it's about the closest thing to a block 40 with a good motor.
I may be mistaken, but it seems to me the only unit with Beagles is St. Louis.
Anyone know?
Yep, I've been in the Guard for about 5 years. I'm flying the Block 30 Big mouth. It's pretty sweet these days. We've got SCU-4, SADL, GSP coupled with the RLG's, Litening II Pods, and a bunch of other good avioonics. We like to call it a block 39 because it's about the closest thing to a block 40 with a good motor.
I may be mistaken, but it seems to me the only unit with Beagles is St. Louis.
Anyone know?
av8instyle
Above Average Member
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2002
- Posts
- 427
ivauir
SNIKT!
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2002
- Posts
- 1,476
I'm just a caveman ...
... but, don't go to UPT with the "I'm gonna fly a ?-??" attitude. Have an idea, but don't get too attached to it: while class ranking is important to getting your choice, timing is king. If any of these Centerline Thrust Theorists tell you otherwise they are full of hot air.
I can remember a time when the only fighters available were banked and the top guys were not interested. Listen to what your IPs have to offer - ask them about the pros and cons of each assignment. I will not BS you about how great it was flying the heavies - it is a fighter pilot's AF, as a heavy pilot you are just living in it. Still, I had some great experiences and did some things the average zipper suited sun god doesn't even know exist.
No matter what you do for Uncle Sam choose something you couldn't do on the outside. You can fly airplanes with sleeping room, a head, an oven and a coffee maker when you are an old man. Have an adventure while you are young.
As far as I know we've never lost a HVAA whenever there was any dedicated HVAA CAP of any kind. Nor have we lost a HVAA since Vietnam, so your quote is a little misleading - the same can be said of the viper, or any other modern Air to Air capable fighter.
There was an instance when an Eagle saved the day AFTER they let a leaker get through. We got lucky we didn't lose that HVAA to cumulo granite as the executed the Vulcan Death Dive at night, no FLIR, no Noggs, no SA. Personnally I was happy to have ANY dedicated goalie CAP.
... but, don't go to UPT with the "I'm gonna fly a ?-??" attitude. Have an idea, but don't get too attached to it: while class ranking is important to getting your choice, timing is king. If any of these Centerline Thrust Theorists tell you otherwise they are full of hot air.
I can remember a time when the only fighters available were banked and the top guys were not interested. Listen to what your IPs have to offer - ask them about the pros and cons of each assignment. I will not BS you about how great it was flying the heavies - it is a fighter pilot's AF, as a heavy pilot you are just living in it. Still, I had some great experiences and did some things the average zipper suited sun god doesn't even know exist.No matter what you do for Uncle Sam choose something you couldn't do on the outside. You can fly airplanes with sleeping room, a head, an oven and a coffee maker when you are an old man. Have an adventure while you are young.
As far as I know we've never lost a HVAA whenever there was any dedicated HVAA CAP of any kind. Nor have we lost a HVAA since Vietnam, so your quote is a little misleading - the same can be said of the viper, or any other modern Air to Air capable fighter.
There was an instance when an Eagle saved the day AFTER they let a leaker get through. We got lucky we didn't lose that HVAA to cumulo granite as the executed the Vulcan Death Dive at night, no FLIR, no Noggs, no SA. Personnally I was happy to have ANY dedicated goalie CAP.
Oh Please!
Not to get into the "who's patch is worth more" fight. Let's not get too involved in bashing PW220 F-16s at Luke.
Only 4 of the crashes were engine related.
a) 1 Midair during BFM
b) Pilot signing off an electrical RED X while cross-country to Beale, result no power, no hook, no cable, no brakes, depart the runway and over Northern Ave.
c) Landing Gear non-deploy and they ran out of gas, controlled ejection
And having worked with the -229 there is a big difference in reliability over the -220s.
Not to get into the "who's patch is worth more" fight. Let's not get too involved in bashing PW220 F-16s at Luke.
Only 4 of the crashes were engine related.
a) 1 Midair during BFM
b) Pilot signing off an electrical RED X while cross-country to Beale, result no power, no hook, no cable, no brakes, depart the runway and over Northern Ave.
c) Landing Gear non-deploy and they ran out of gas, controlled ejection
And having worked with the -229 there is a big difference in reliability over the -220s.
WOW!!!
You fighter guys are great to read.........what a crack up......oops....hold on I'm on a trip in the herc...room service is here.....be right back....
Hmm, it's salmon tonight.......
Ok, sorry, where was I....oh, reading you guys is better than watching the Comedy channel....anyways, coming from a Herc guy, both planes (-15, and -16) seem to be pretty cool with some great missions. I have friends flying both......though, there is still something about the ol' Tomcat taking off....hmmm........
Oh, nice thing about flying slow......our duty day runs out too soon to really go anywhere too fast....many nice stops along the way......
So, was the debate decided....what's better, a F-15, F-16, KC-135, B-1, C-9, C-21, C-130, F-14, F-18, F-22, P-3, S-3, A-6, B-52, C-141......hmm, I think just having my wings......
You fighter guys are great to read.........what a crack up......oops....hold on I'm on a trip in the herc...room service is here.....be right back....
Hmm, it's salmon tonight.......
Ok, sorry, where was I....oh, reading you guys is better than watching the Comedy channel....anyways, coming from a Herc guy, both planes (-15, and -16) seem to be pretty cool with some great missions. I have friends flying both......though, there is still something about the ol' Tomcat taking off....hmmm........
Oh, nice thing about flying slow......our duty day runs out too soon to really go anywhere too fast....many nice stops along the way......
So, was the debate decided....what's better, a F-15, F-16, KC-135, B-1, C-9, C-21, C-130, F-14, F-18, F-22, P-3, S-3, A-6, B-52, C-141......hmm, I think just having my wings......
viper -vs- eagle
The mighty Strike Eagle fitted w/229's has 58,069 lbs of thrust. If it was ever flown clean (no CFT's) it would rage over any viper including block 50's and 60's. Reference Seoul and Singapore Airshows. A clean F15E dominated the Rafale, Euro Fighter and some ruskie thrust vector POS (SU35?).
The air to ground capability is substantial with a max loadout of 81K. That is more iron than a 4 ship of vipers carry.
F-15E TFR- 100 ft at 600+ knots, with a free A/A radar.
Viper TFR - YGBSM, its called Medium Altitude LANTIRN OPS
As far as air to air, the APG 70 is second only to the V2. A viper is dead before the "declare" call is made since it can not ID.
The Korean version of the Strike Eagle will be awesome. GE 129's and V1.
The mighty Strike Eagle fitted w/229's has 58,069 lbs of thrust. If it was ever flown clean (no CFT's) it would rage over any viper including block 50's and 60's. Reference Seoul and Singapore Airshows. A clean F15E dominated the Rafale, Euro Fighter and some ruskie thrust vector POS (SU35?).
The air to ground capability is substantial with a max loadout of 81K. That is more iron than a 4 ship of vipers carry.
F-15E TFR- 100 ft at 600+ knots, with a free A/A radar.
Viper TFR - YGBSM, its called Medium Altitude LANTIRN OPS
As far as air to air, the APG 70 is second only to the V2. A viper is dead before the "declare" call is made since it can not ID.
The Korean version of the Strike Eagle will be awesome. GE 129's and V1.
av8instyle
Above Average Member
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2002
- Posts
- 427
I'll have what he's having!
So much for the beauty of a WUS, err, I mean a WSO checking 6 4 U.
Thanks, but I'll keep my Viper.
Dude, you're smokin' crack if you think your beagle can out turn a Viper. It has its advantages, but that is NOT one of them. BFM is, sorry to say, exclusive to the Viper in this case. With FULL internal fuel, 2 A-9's, and load of bullets the F-16C Bk 30 BM weighs in at just under 25,000 lbs. Engine puts out 28,000 lbs thrust. At 10k or less I will be able to pull 9G's until I run out of fuel or you die. The latter will most likely occur.
I'd like to see it when you actually use that TFR at 100 feet. It'll be a cold day in he!! when that happens. The TFR was in some Vipers previous and was deactivated because it wasn't gonna be used.
But not quite what a B-52/B-1 will carry. I'm sorry, but I just don't see the relevance. A Viper has a specific A-G job and does it better than any other fighter. I don't think anyone will sign off on a lone Beagle as opposed to a four ship of Vipers anyway.
Dude, last I checked you have the same missles we do, and our limit is not our radar when it comes to A-A employment. And, oh by the way, vipers DO have two ID modes. One currently fielded, and one (better one) on the way VERY SOON.
I just got back from Maple Flag. The OCA was split 33/33/33 Eagles/Rhinos/Vipers. On FOUR occassions an entire 4 ship of OCA was wiped out on the initial push. All four times they were unaware. Can you guess which aircraft it was ALL FOUR TIMES? Yep, you guessed it - the ultra-high SA, mightier than thou, Sort-to-the-mort, Salami receiving EAGLES!
So much for the beauty of a WUS, err, I mean a WSO checking 6 4 U.
Thanks, but I'll keep my Viper.
Mud Eagle
Aviator
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2001
- Posts
- 516
Re: I'll have what he's having!
Sorry, my old cranium friend, but I'm afraid you're the one who's riding a little bit high on your G-FM horse in this case. This was actually done by the 422 TES back in 96 or 97 while I was a maintainer at Nellis -- BFM between a -229 powered F-15E with no CFTs or LANTIRN pods and a -129 powered Viper. Guess what -- the Eagle could not only keep up, but it out G-FMd the Viper a few times, too.
The full internal gas F-15E with no external sh-t on it weighs in just under 50K. The 229 puts out 29,000 lbs, and we've got two of 'em. Do the math.
Better yet, check out the video of the airshow demo that Boeing did with just such a configured F-15E.
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/f15/f-15k/video/lb3123.mpg
av8instyle said:
Sorry, my old cranium friend, but I'm afraid you're the one who's riding a little bit high on your G-FM horse in this case. This was actually done by the 422 TES back in 96 or 97 while I was a maintainer at Nellis -- BFM between a -229 powered F-15E with no CFTs or LANTIRN pods and a -129 powered Viper. Guess what -- the Eagle could not only keep up, but it out G-FMd the Viper a few times, too.
The full internal gas F-15E with no external sh-t on it weighs in just under 50K. The 229 puts out 29,000 lbs, and we've got two of 'em. Do the math.
Better yet, check out the video of the airshow demo that Boeing did with just such a configured F-15E.
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/f15/f-15k/video/lb3123.mpg
Last edited:
AlbieF15
F15 Ret/FDX/InterviewPrep
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 1,764
KIO...
Dudes,
With all due respect, this is starting to sound like a junior high argument over Fords verses Chevys, the yankees verses the Sox, etc. etc.
A late model block Viper is BFM machine. Works best if clean, but not too terrible even dirtied up a bit. Lots of thrust, hard to see, and a G-limiter mean a guy can pull without fear (usually) of hurting jet as he seeks max performance. However...most Vipers will be doing SEAD or OCA/bomb dropping on the push, although they have a superior self protection capability. And yes...they can also do OCA/DCA without any other help if required.
F15Es are superior platforms for dropping lots of weapons, smart or otherwise. Great radar, great Lantirn, and some great crews. Yes....drop the stores and the CFTs and you've got a hell of a BFM jet. You also don't have the premier OCA jet anymore...you've got an overly built 2 seat F15D. The jet was built for OCA...without the extra gas/stores/weapons there was no reason to buy them. We had some good A/A fighters, and we had a great multirole fighter...but we needed more OCA punch so the strike Eagle was born.
F15Cs are getting old. The thrust to weight ain't what a block 50 has. However...in the hands of the right guy its still a great BFM machine--against anyone. Great tube/lots of missiles/good training will hopefully mean about 99% of the BFM discussion is moot. However...Eagle drivers will always push to be the very best BFM'ers at the merge they can be--it is the yardstick in the community. Due to the single mission doctine/training, more than likely F15Cs will be fragged at the lead OCA/DCA air to air forces in the package...at least until the F22 shows up and makes this thread even more meaningless (as if that is possible).
Last I checked...we were all on the same team. Rivalry is good--brings out the best in us...but this is getting sophmoric. Don't measure yourself by the last 350 hour flight lead you gunned....and don't lose sight of the fact the pilot is what you fight, defeat, and ultimately kill. The plane is just the ride to the fight....
Now go to your respective vaults and study.....
Albie
Dudes,
With all due respect, this is starting to sound like a junior high argument over Fords verses Chevys, the yankees verses the Sox, etc. etc.
A late model block Viper is BFM machine. Works best if clean, but not too terrible even dirtied up a bit. Lots of thrust, hard to see, and a G-limiter mean a guy can pull without fear (usually) of hurting jet as he seeks max performance. However...most Vipers will be doing SEAD or OCA/bomb dropping on the push, although they have a superior self protection capability. And yes...they can also do OCA/DCA without any other help if required.
F15Es are superior platforms for dropping lots of weapons, smart or otherwise. Great radar, great Lantirn, and some great crews. Yes....drop the stores and the CFTs and you've got a hell of a BFM jet. You also don't have the premier OCA jet anymore...you've got an overly built 2 seat F15D. The jet was built for OCA...without the extra gas/stores/weapons there was no reason to buy them. We had some good A/A fighters, and we had a great multirole fighter...but we needed more OCA punch so the strike Eagle was born.
F15Cs are getting old. The thrust to weight ain't what a block 50 has. However...in the hands of the right guy its still a great BFM machine--against anyone. Great tube/lots of missiles/good training will hopefully mean about 99% of the BFM discussion is moot. However...Eagle drivers will always push to be the very best BFM'ers at the merge they can be--it is the yardstick in the community. Due to the single mission doctine/training, more than likely F15Cs will be fragged at the lead OCA/DCA air to air forces in the package...at least until the F22 shows up and makes this thread even more meaningless (as if that is possible).
Last I checked...we were all on the same team. Rivalry is good--brings out the best in us...but this is getting sophmoric. Don't measure yourself by the last 350 hour flight lead you gunned....and don't lose sight of the fact the pilot is what you fight, defeat, and ultimately kill. The plane is just the ride to the fight....
Now go to your respective vaults and study.....
Albie
TFR in the Eagle
LOWAT cat 3 at Nellis. VLC (100') on flat terrain (egress to the farms) 1.21 Mach and accelerating with pods and CFT's. It is on video with out a flyup. The 422 has done it. Supersonic is not recommended with TFR you get an airspeed caution because it cannot program flyups fast enough (should be a change with an upgrade in the future), but not a prob with flat terrain. Although I am sure it was auto TF as opposed to manual.
LOWAT cat 3 at Nellis. VLC (100') on flat terrain (egress to the farms) 1.21 Mach and accelerating with pods and CFT's. It is on video with out a flyup. The 422 has done it. Supersonic is not recommended with TFR you get an airspeed caution because it cannot program flyups fast enough (should be a change with an upgrade in the future), but not a prob with flat terrain. Although I am sure it was auto TF as opposed to manual.
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