ExpressJet Strike Vote

[nimtz]

How many airlines since 9/11 have raised the bar beyond Comair levels?

Sam

And what other pilot group has had members talking more sh*t including on this board about how we were going to blow away the contracts of Comair, CHQ, Mesa, Mesaba, etc... From what I'm hearing our people are of the opinon that Comair will defintely take concessions due to Delta's current state. I think that is a horesh*t way to think cause there is alot to play out until DAL hits Comair hard to cut pilot pay. In the meantime all those chest thumpers who claimed we would revolutionize the industry are going to have to explain themselves if we elect in what appears to be the TA they are setting us up for. I'm not accussing you of this Sam, but I fear we have alot of talkers and not necessairly alot of doers in our house.

 

[Sam Fisher]

And what other pilot group has had members talking more sh*t including on this board about how we were going to blow away the contracts of Comair, CHQ, Mesa, Mesaba, etc... From what I'm hearing our people are of the opinon that Comair will defintely take concessions due to Delta's current state. I think that is a horesh*t way to think cause there is alot to play out until DAL hits Comair hard to cut pilot pay. In the meantime all those chest thumpers who claimed we would revolutionize the industry are going to have to explain themselves if we elect in what appears to be the TA they are setting us up for. I'm not accussing you of this Sam, but I fear we have alot of talkers and not necessairly alot of doers in our house.

nimtz,

You are right. We do have a lot of talkers. Lot of hot air. And those who beatr their chests on here and on the crackpipe are immature at best and absolutely idiotic at worst, despite their flying experience and age. I like to deal in reality. The reality is that nobody has pushed the bar since before 9/11. The bar has been reset, whether anyone likes it or not. Had 9/11 never happened, I'm sure many more contracts would have raised the bar and $80/hour for 5 year captains might have been achievable. But the fact is that too many other airlines (and their pilot groups) are willing to do the very same job we do for less. It is simple economics and many of our pilots refuse to acknowledge this truism. I know this pilot group won't accept management's current offer of 9.08% but for those who think it will be Comair +5%, they are in for quite a rude awakening.

Reality blows dude.

Sam

 

[Sam Fisher]

Chq is probably correct,


At least their pilot group didnt vote in a quitter, I LEFT FOR PERSONAL REASONS, oh now can I be Sec Treas. PLEASE

That is a chicken-snit comment bud. Personal attacks like that are below board and clearly the result of someone who has never done any sort of union work. I'm glad we have people like MW and others who are willing to step up to the plate and deal with people like you on a daily basis. If I remember correctly, MW left the NC around 10/02. It is now 10/04. 2 years has gone by. Perhaps he missed being a line pilot. Isn't that why we got involved in this business to begin with? To be a pilot?

You should delete your post.

Sam

 

[nimtz]

nimtz,

Reality blows dude.

I've know that since our friends at Mesa bent over for Johnny O. That has not stopped me from being at a picket line. One can only hope that the uneducated can see somehow see the purges in benefits/salary at the major level and realize one is better suited worrying about their current company rather then the benefits at an airline they think they will work for in the near term. Be it SWA, JB, or even AMR in the years ahead. Different time, different age. Real airline pilot work, continued lackluster pay...

 

[john Adams]

That is a chicken-snit comment bud. Personal attacks like that are below board and clearly the result of someone who has never done any sort of union work. I'm glad we have people like MW and others who are willing to step up to the plate and deal with people like you on a daily basis. If I remember correctly, MW left the NC around 10/02. It is now 10/04. 2 years has gone by. Perhaps he missed being a line pilot. Isn't that why we got involved in this business to begin with? To be a pilot?

You should delete your post.

Sam

Poor Sam,

Did I hurt your feelings? To bad dood.

Oh lets address the chicken Snit comments: if the truth is Chicken snit then so be it.

Good luck with Neg.

 

[NEDude]

I've know that since our friends at Mesa bent over for Johnny O.

Stop bashing Mesa. Do you people have any idea what was going on at Mesa during their contract negotions? If Mesa pilots would have held out for higher pay, they would have all lost their jobs to the Freedom and CCAir guys. Classic case of whipsaw. Mesa pilots had two choices, hold out for higher pay and lose their jobs, or accept a lower pay rate to get all flying under one pilot group and end whipsaw. They took the latter in an effort to better their chances next time around. Blame Johnny O and the Freedom and CCAir pilots for the bad Mesa contract, don't blame a group of pilots who were placed between a rock and a hard place by the others.

 

[nimtz]

Stop bashing Mesa. Do you people have any idea what was going on at Mesa during their contract negotions? If Mesa pilots would have held out for higher pay, they would have all lost their jobs to the Freedom and CCAir guys. Classic case of whipsaw. Mesa pilots had two choices, hold out for higher pay and lose their jobs, or accept a lower pay rate to get all flying under one pilot group and end whipsaw. They took the latter in an effort to better their chances next time around. Blame Johnny O and the Freedom and CCAir pilots for the bad Mesa contract, don't blame a group of pilots who were placed between a rock and a hard place by the others.

NEDude, as usual you butt your nose in to hate on me. I don't need you to lecture me about outsourcing and whipsaws since I've been both the beneficiary and victim. It's not like Mesa was doing anything unique back in '03. Whipsaws and fear at contract time is an old tactic for management, it is a matter of how each group reacts to it. Some react in fear others find ways to call bluffs.

I have probably talked with alot more Mesa guys then you have and quite a few are frustrated at their vote. Let's face it nobody is getting 500 PIC and moving to the majors so regional stagnation is a pain we all share. They saw fear at the time and they acted how they thought was right. Unfortunately they will pay the price for that in the coming years. Don't expect Johnny to open his wallet next time around either.

At the end of the day the pilot group is the one who passed their contract, so they are the ones to critiqued. We all have our opinons about the Mesa situation it should be painfully clear that it only takes one substandard contract to get everyone else's management team to beat similiar substandard contracts on every pilot group. That is what we must defeat if we ever want to make a decent living at this level of the profession. Perhaps not raising the bar, but maybe we should stick to not lowering ourselves into the mudd while we do the work of mainline pilots.

 

[P38JLightning]

come on Sam

>>>The reality is that nobody has pushed the bar since before 9/11. The bar has been reset, whether anyone likes it or not. Had 9/11 never happened, I'm sure many more contracts would have raised the bar

Spare this "woe as me post 9/11 world we live in" if anything, 9/11 has increased the major's reliance on RJ's, thus giving RJ operators more leverage. Think CAL can afford a strike, wether wholly owned or not, and lose that much feed? No way. Think they'll deep 6 the entire company for Comair -1% instead of +5%? I doubt it. Either way they will be about as profitable, and Comair + even a penny is necessary to put the ball back into the courts of pilots negotiating the the rest of the decade at our level.

>>>>and $80/hour for 5 year captains might have been achievable. But the fact is that too many other airlines (and their pilot groups) are willing to do the very same job we do for less. It is simple economics and many of our pilots refuse to acknowledge this truism.

Yeah I got another truism for you. CAL has no other jet feed and even if these negotiations go til 07 or 08, CAL will still not be able to lose 95%, 90%, 80%, 50% of their feed. Don't freak out when you see a shiny new jet on the ramp operated by Chautauqua or SkyWest. You still have the parent company by the short hairs. Don't let them go.

>>>I know this pilot group won't accept management's current offer of 9.08% but for those who think it will be Comair +5%, they are in for quite a rude awakening.


Wow you should work for Oz writing his letters to our families and full color brouchures.

 

[Sam Fisher]

>>>The reality is that nobody has pushed the bar since before 9/11. The bar has been reset, whether anyone likes it or not. Had 9/11 never happened, I'm sure many more contracts would have raised the bar

Spare this "woe as me post 9/11 world we live in" if anything, 9/11 has increased the major's reliance on RJ's, thus giving RJ operators more leverage. Think CAL can afford a strike, wether wholly owned or not, and lose that much feed? No way. Think they'll deep 6 the entire company for Comair -1% instead of +5%? I doubt it. Either way they will be about as profitable, and Comair + even a penny is necessary to put the ball back into the courts of pilots negotiating the the rest of the decade at our level.

>>>>and $80/hour for 5 year captains might have been achievable. But the fact is that too many other airlines (and their pilot groups) are willing to do the very same job we do for less. It is simple economics and many of our pilots refuse to acknowledge this truism.

Yeah I got another truism for you. CAL has no other jet feed and even if these negotiations go til 07 or 08, CAL will still not be able to lose 95%, 90%, 80%, 50% of their feed. Don't freak out when you see a shiny new jet on the ramp operated by Chautauqua or SkyWest. You still have the parent company by the short hairs. Don't let them go.

>>>I know this pilot group won't accept management's current offer of 9.08% but for those who think it will be Comair +5%, they are in for quite a rude awakening.


Wow you should work for Oz writing his letters to our families and full color brouchures.

P38,

I write so as not to insult anyone on here. Hopefully you can too. Easy with the Oz comments, will ya?

You guys were released back in 2001. We won't be released anytime soon. BIG difference. Huge difference. The NMB thinks we are just like every other 50 seat operator out there. THAT is a problem. Apparently they told our NC (heard this at a recent union meeting) that they were "smoking crack" when our compensation proposal was designed. The company won't be pushed to pay Comair+ because the government isn't going to allow us to walk. Period.

Sam

 

[nonstop]

nimtz,

You are right. We do have a lot of talkers. Lot of hot air. And those who beatr their chests on here and on the crackpipe are immature at best and absolutely idiotic at worst, despite their flying experience and age. I like to deal in reality. The reality is that nobody has pushed the bar since before 9/11. The bar has been reset, whether anyone likes it or not. Had 9/11 never happened, I'm sure many more contracts would have raised the bar and $80/hour for 5 year captains might have been achievable. But the fact is that too many other airlines (and their pilot groups) are willing to do the very same job we do for less. It is simple economics and many of our pilots refuse to acknowledge this truism. I know this pilot group won't accept management's current offer of 9.08% but for those who think it will be Comair +5%, they are in for quite a rude awakening.

Reality blows dude.

Sam

We all create our own reality don't we? There's ALWAYS going to be someone willing to do it for less, so you'll be able to exercise that excuse for the remainder of your career if you so choose. Oh but I'm sure you'll be at a major or LCC soon where you can price yourself into the sky. :/

One thing I think some fail to consider (including our NC) is for many (yet to be seen if it's the majority at XJT), the job simply isn't worth the pay anymore. Some aren't afraid of the consequences of pricing themselves out of a job, if that did end up being the reality of us sucessfully raising the bar (though I think it wouldn't and it's just a scare tactic). Personally I believe a business model based soley on underbidding other similar labor groups to be idiotic and a failure in the long run. The downward spiral will stop somewhere. As far as I'm concerned it stops at XJT. Remember when evaluating the potential outcome of our negotiations to consider the realitive experience at CHQ at MESA when compared to XJT before you formulate your opinion as to which direction this will go.

Call me a chest thumper, stupid, greedy, whatever strokes your ego to make your opinion seem more rational and thought out. I simply have formulated a value for my time and experience and it exceeds expectations that are suggested by individuals like you and our negotiating comitee (and especially our company). For the record, personally, I feel I'm in a group that has the most to lose from trying to "raise the bar." Short term anyway. Undercutting each other screws us all long term, though I think the majority fail to grasp that.

We'll see which way it'll go, someday. We do agree on one thing, I do think there are some who are just full of hot air. But that's an absolute in any group.

 

[Sam Fisher]

We all create our own reality don't we? There's ALWAYS going to be someone willing to do it for less, so you'll be able to exercise that excuse for the remainder of your career if you so choose. Oh but I'm sure you'll be at a major or LCC soon where you can price yourself into the sky. :/

One thing I think some fail to consider (including our NC) is for many (yet to be seen if it's the majority at XJT), the job simply isn't worth the pay anymore. Some aren't afraid of the consequences of pricing themselves out of a job, if that did end up being the reality of us sucessfully raising the bar (though I think it wouldn't and it's just a scare tactic). Personally I believe a business model based soley on underbidding other similar labor groups to be idiotic and a failure in the long run. The downward spiral will stop somewhere. As far as I'm concerned it stops at XJT. Remember when evaluating the potential outcome of our negotiations to consider the realitive experience at CHQ at MESA when compared to XJT before you formulate your opinion as to which direction this will go.

Call me a chest thumper, stupid, greedy, whatever strokes your ego to make your opinion seem more rational and thought out. I simply have formulated a value for my time and experience and it exceeds expectations that are suggested by individuals like you and our negotiating comitee (and especially our company). For the record, personally, I feel I'm in a group that has the most to lose from trying to "raise the bar." Short term anyway. Undercutting each other screws us all long term, though I think the majority fail to grasp that.

We'll see which way it'll go, someday. We do agree on one thing, I do think there are some who are just full of hot air. But that's an absolute in any group.

RM,

You are free to exercise your vote any way you wish but something tells me you will be voting no regardless of what comes down the pipe. And that is fine. Our leverage is severely undercut when a) other carriers ARE willing and doing it for less and b) the NMB is pro-management, thereby not allowing us the opportunity to exercise self-help.

I have no idea what will happen in the next few months here but I do know what absolute - as soon as the pay rates go out, the vocal minority will beat their chests, cry bloody murder, call the NC and MEC sell-outs, and then run around like a chicken with their head cut off saying we are "worth more."

If the job isn't worth the pay (in your words), you are also free to vote with your feet. I do agree with you when you say the current business models are idiotic. I agree 100% with that. With that said, I also don't think that the rest of the industry will call us "sell outs" the way they did Mesa, etc...because even the TA's we've already achieved are MUCH better than Mesa, etc.

Sam

 

[paid4training]

If someone is in training and a strike does happen what should they do? go to class and get released or what? My understanding you have to make it through training before the union will protect you?

 

[nonstop]

If the job isn't worth the pay (in your words), you are also free to vote with your feet.
Sam

Just a quick clarification please, if you may Sam, before I respond. Are you suggesting I simply quit my profession in the face of adversity?

Or, do you mean as in a vote to strike, and execution of a strike?

 

[contract2002]

Personal attacks like that are below board and clearly the result of someone who has never done any sort of union work.

UNION WORK = oxymoron of the century!

Why was calling someone a quitter a personal attack? Did this person quit? I have to go, scheduling is calling me for some real work.

 

[NEDude]

NEDude, as usual you butt your nose in to hate on me.

No hate here.

Whipsaws and fear at contract time is an old tactic for management, it is a matter of how each group reacts to it. Some react in fear others find ways to call bluffs.

There are bluffs, and then there is action. Mesa had pilots on furlough, while aircraft were showing up on property at Freedom and CCAir. Doesn't sound like a bluff to me. But then again, I don't play poker or anything.

Seriously Nimitz, there is no hate here. I hope you guys get what you are after, whatever it takes. My comment wasn't directed at you personally, more at the constant potshots at Mesa by those who know nothing of what those guys were up against. I was one of the guys on furlough at Mesa while Freedom was starting to take delivery of our aircraft. Contract negotiations are a give and take process. How much you have to give or take depands on how strong a foundation you have to stand on. Being the sole RJ feeder (and for all intents and purposes the only feeder) for an airline gives you a much stronger position than the guys at Mesa who were facing whipsaw with a pilot group (Freedom) who appeared to have no qualms about slapping an ALPA group in the face (ie. possibly scabbing).

Good luck