ExpressJet Pilots Reach Tentative Agreement

[Hosed COEX]

Fair enough. BTW, I see you're a check airman (or so your sig mentions). I think I'd be voting yes to if I was making around 70-80 hr. (includes over-ride) and was about to swallow a very large retro check.

As for myself (and a lot of other FO's), I'm pullin down and entire $27/hr @ min. guarantee on reserve. Oh yeah, don't forget my $200 a month in per diem. As for retro, well that 2 + years I spent on the street pretty much answers that one. So what am I getting by voting yes........ not much.

SO MUCH FOR NOT LEAVING FO'S BEHIND.

If you are a second year FO and you are bidding reserve then you are doing so by choice. Every second year FO in this company can at least hold a relief line, even in CLE. Bid a line. Do better. The new rate, $32/hr @ 85 hrs @ 12 months + 6.5% 401K match/B-plan + 7% profit sharing = 37194.91 per year. Quit distorting the facts.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

I just started reading this thread today and boy does it remind me of the (not so) good old days of last January here at Mesaba.

It starts off with the annoucement of the TA and everyone is happy.

"Hooray, I hear it is industry leading!"

This quickly morphs into "Wait a minute maybe it is not so great"

Which then leads to " this thing is going down in flames for sure!! The pay rates sux0r and I'm voting no. 80% will vote NO!"

An ALPA rep gets on and says "wait a minute go to the road shows to hear what we have to say. And remember it is all about the W2."

After the road show the captains (who have more to lose) and those from IAH (Most of our yes votes were from MSP based captains or people who were from MSP) respond, "I'm voting yes this is the best we can do."

The FO's respond "You're sell outs! we need to strike!"

And in the end the road shows convince just enough FO's to vote yes and the thing passes 66-33.

When I first saw Mesaba's TA I thought it was going down 80-20. After a week I thought it was going to be a close no vote. Then once I went to a road show I knew it was all over...it was gonna pass 60-40. The actual number was 66% yes.

It is (hilarious, uncanny, scary sad? Fill in the blank) how Coex is following the same curve we did.

So yes Coex guys and gals, pretty much no matter what this thing will pass. With the exception of Comair all regionals pass the first one. It is super disappointing to some that your next chance won't be for six more years but don't worry the pain goes away after a few months. It's been about 9 months for me and it doesn't hurt (much) anymore.

Good luck y'all

Excellent description of the situation.

 

[ILStoMinimums]

Could someone then post the new pay rates for FO's and Captains?

 

[TOGA]

One "no" vote here . . .

. . . on principle alone. They can afford much more, we're worth much more. Doubling the pay for all three crewmembers would cost each pax less than $2/leg. We're making as much as SWA at the worst time in the history of the airline industry. Oil is NOT at a record high . . . look at the period from the mid-seventies thru the early eighties, and adjust for inflation. The best-paid pilots in the industry today are paid less than half what their 30-years-prior counterparts were (again, adjust for inflation). Like I said, on principle alone . . . "no". Granted, corporate flying is a whole different animal, but do you guys realize what a FIRST YEAR Captain makes on the Legacy (EMB-135BJ)? $99k/yr, average. Someone, somewhere, someday has to stop the race to the bottom.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

. . . on principle alone. They can afford much more, we're worth much more. Doubling the pay for all three crewmembers would cost each pax less than $2/leg.

TOGA,

There is no truth, hope, or justice in negotiations and you certainly never get what is fair, right, or what you are worth. You only get what you negotiate and what you negotiate is usually a result of whatever relative leverage you have or don't have. To vote no on a philosophical reasoning is fine and it is your choice and your vote, but I strongly urge you to attend a road show presentation if you haven't already.

-Neal

 

[nonstop]

TOGA,

There is no truth, hope, or justice in negotiations and you certainly never get what is fair, right, or what you are worth. You only get what you negotiate and what you negotiate is usually a result of whatever relative leverage you have or don't have. To vote no on a philosophical reasoning is fine and it is your choice and your vote, but I strongly urge you to attend a road show presentation if you haven't already.

-Neal

I think everyone grasps this concept. Certainly negotiations cannot go on forever and someday we'll be granted self help. Our leverage can come with patience. I can wait, personally. What's poor as sh1t+11%? Still poor as sh1t. I've got a feeling Ream is itching to wrap this up though, regardless. His impatience (or ultimately the investors) can also be leverage.

Plus, while we wait, we'll be extremely competitive under C97... and I know some people really like to be "competitive."

 

[badog]

OK Here's the deal

Anyone who votes no is a fool. The work rules are good the pay is low but what do we have to bargain with? We are in an industry that is very unstable. I know that in any other unionized industry, the first TA is a no vote to gain more leverage. We are not in that position, a no vote would drag this $hit on for another 6 to 8 months and what would we get? I hate to say it but we are in no position to demand anything. Especially when Ornstien is telling mainline he can do it cheaper. Let's take the TA get the 190s' and renegotiate in 4 years. Who knows in 6 months one of the legacys will go away and put us all in a better position. It doesn't matter who gets elected or what ever fuel will decide our fate.

B.D.

 

[Nova]

Badog, looking at your previous posts you probably haven't been on property for 6 months and yet you're worried about this dragging on for another 6 months? Oh the humanity.

 

[On Your Six]

I say take it and run... Who expects initial FO pay to be high anyway? Nobody. Don't ever expect to make money in this business (especially at the regional ranks) - those days are loooooooooooooong over...

 

[badog]

That's right NOVA I'm a new hire

Vote yes and you get your retro check. I'm most definately human, I live on my paycheck. Please wow me with your time spent in purgatory. Were you a multiple seat flow guy? Do you know any? Talk to them they're sick of this. 4 years of negotiations. I'm sick of listening to the posturing. It won't change the industry.

B.D.

 

[Nova]

Multiple seat flow guy? What the heck is that? 4 years of negotiations? Man where do you get this stuff. You seem to be making this all up as you are going along. And no, I'm not one of those that spews their career experience to woo simpathy for their cause sorry.

You live on your paycheck? Wow, you're the only one here that does that. Personally I'm doing this for play money.

Your attitude plays exactly into the hands of the company negotiators. Don't you think that when we started negotiating 2+ years ago that they planned to drag this out for years with the understand that 51% of the pilots would be so sick of negotiations that they would sign what ever was put in front of their face? I guess your position is one reason why the new guys can't vote on union issues so their "new guy" attitude doesn't skew the vote returns.

 

[rattler]

Hosed COEX "The new rate (2nd year FO) $32 hr. @85 hrs @12 months + 6.5% 401K match/B-Plan +7% Profit Sharing = $37,194.91." O.K. enough of the B.S. lets look at this for what it really is. Do you pay your bills at the end of the year? I don't, I pay mine month by month. So let's say $32/hr @ 83 hrs (the average a pilot flies per month) = $2656. $2656 before I pay taxes and insurance and all the other misc. deductions from my check every month. Below is a list of deductions for approx. $32/hr. (I actually used our current 4 th year pay 31.47)

Fed Tax 136.24
SS Tax 72.91
MedCr 17.05
401K 59.27
Med Ins 15.00
uniform Ex 20.00
LTD 5.28
Dental 8.92
Union Ds 21.96

Total 356.63 x 2 checks a month - LTD Post Tax only charged once a month (5.28). = $707.98

$2656 - $707.98 = $1948.02

Your first check will be roughly $900, and the second 1050 + per diem.

Also note, that as a commuter, in order to get a commutable line I also sacrifice high pay lines (85 + hrs) so I can get home at the end of the day. Some months only pay 75 hours, most are 75 - 80 hrs a month. So our new 2nd year pay is even less than I described for a commuter.

Hosed COEX added:" + 6.5 % 401K match/B-Plan". That's great I am truly happy we have it but it is not income. This is for retirement, not bill paying.

"+7% Profit sharing" great if you belive it. But again this comes at the end of the year, sure it's a nice "bonus", but it won't help pay the bills in July. I also think everyone I've talked to thinks the PS program won't pay out anywhere close to what we're expecting. If the company really want's to give us money they can put it in hard pay rate form. I don't think they want to give us any money.

So by my math here's the reallity:
2 nd year FO: $31,872 pre tax dollars + the hope of some company generosity at the end of the year.

or $23,376 after tax. Also for the record, per diem (NOT INCOME) will add about $5423 to that number. ($1.60/hr.)

 

[rattler]

By the way BAD DOG I am one of many Fools who will be voting NO!

 

[Nova]

Wow, thanks Rattler. That breakdown makes this deal seem even sweeter.

Perhaps a new USA Today ad should be taken out:

"$17,500 per year wasn't enough so now we offer $2,500 more."

 

[Air Biscuit]

Why didn't the negotiating committe petition for a different mediator. I'm not sure, but I think they can do this. We need a release and 2 Jack@sses from the NMB are holding us back. This is not acceptable for me to live with for the next 6+ years, my vote is still NO. Remember 9%=innopropriate proposal, but 11%=a fair deal. NO WAY!!!

 

[vectors2final]

Are you people STILL arguing about this? Just pick your vote and get over it. All this bitching and whining make me wanna hurl.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Why didn't the negotiating committe petition for a different mediator. I'm not sure, but I think they can do this. We need a release and 2 Jack@sses from the NMB are holding us back. This is not acceptable for me to live with for the next 6+ years, my vote is still NO. Remember 9%=innopropriate proposal, but 11%=a fair deal. NO WAY!!!

I'm not so sure I understand what you mean by "petition for a different mediator." We were assigned 2 staff mediators by the NMB. They do their job and go home. They do not decide whether or not we get a release. That decision rests in the hands of the Board members themselves, who are political appointees.

That 9% company proposal had far fewer other provisions than the current 11% TA, to the tune of roughly $7 million more for the first year alone. The majority of the gains made since June were made in areas other than the rate itself. Furthermore, nobody Air Biscuit, is saying that this is a "fair deal." "Fair doesn't come into play in a labor negotiations process. We only get what we have the leverage to negotiate and the MEC has unanimously supported this deal because they believe that $31 million of improvements on day 1 (excluding the $30.6 million retro payout) is the right thing to do, given the current and possible future bargaining climate.

-Neal

 

[surplus1]

When is the vote gentlemen?

 

[350DRIVER]

"$17,500 per year wasn't enough so now we offer $2,500 more."

Priceless..

Hope ya'll vote this junk down and get what you deserve.

3 5 0

 

[Saluki Dawg]

The biggest problems aren't now but in 1 year time when the last Flowback is gone and the 112 have followed. Our seniority list could become more still than anyone can imagine after that. Now the current 3 and 4 year FO's are looking to be 5, 6, 7 or 8 year FO's.

It's important to look beyond cashing the retro check as whether this contract serves the needs of our most junior pilots as well as the senior for the contract duration. In 2009-10 will the FO's here be thankful that they'll have topped out at $44/hour and have waited 8 years to break $40k a year?

Stating that FO's have a future Captain slot to look forward to ease their financial needs is based on false hope and is petty. "I got mine so eventually you'll get yours" ??? It appears no matter how much the Captain ranks stated their intentions to not leave the FO's behind they still don't understand the struggles of 4+ year FO. Having not walked a mile in those shoes must have clouded their vision.

Nova,
I think that you might want to rethink your statement above. I was a 4+ year FO and just recently requalled after being downgraded for 2+ years. But, I have walked a mile in your shoes, and after attending a roadshow and getting the entire scoop, I am voting yes. I don't consider a yes vote as leaving you or any other FO behind. I know exactly what you guys make, because I made the exact same thing. The FO's as Neal has already stated are getting a much greater percentage of hard pay rate increases than the Captains are. So, how are the Captains leaving the FO's behind?