ExpressJet Pilots Reach Tentative Agreement

[Britpilot]

The captains were upgrading in less than a year and were pay protected on the ATR/120 or even Jet soon their after. How long did those '99 hires have to wait before they cleared $30k? 1 year? 2 years? Meanwhile the rest of us are still waiting after 5 years.

I was pay protected during my second week of ground school on the RJ in '01. Like a lot of the guys I was "seat locked" on the Beech and received no pay protection even though I held RJ CA for three bids. Most RJ FO's were making more money than us Beech Captains due to open time pick up, dead head pay and lines built to 90+ hours. I broke the 30 grand barrier in 01, just.
I think that the road show will give you some numbers for 5th year FO's that will easily clear the 30 grand mark.

 

[Nova]

Why is it "hook, line, and sinker" if he came to a road show, listened, asked questions, and is still on the fence but maybe leaning one way? Sounds like the presentation did its job....it made him think.

-Neal

Did the presentation do it's job if it made him think and still decide to vote NO?

The problem being that if we educate ourselves and still come away with a NO vote additude we're wrong in the eyes of the union reps. Don't treat us like uneducated children. We're college educated professionals that are quite capable of thinking on our own. I've asked my questions and gotten my answers but none have shifted my vote.

I think that the road show will give you some numbers for 5th year FO's that will easily clear the 30 grand mark.

The problem is I'm not interested in clearing $30k after 5 years, but rather $40k+. 60% of captain might get it there but that isn't on the table.

 

[ShoreFlyer]

Actually Neil did too good of a job presenting the facts. Everyone is either on the fence, yes, or no.

If it gets voted in by 51 % we got screwed.
If it gets voted down by 51 % we will get screwed.

Management wants it voted in by 51 % no more.
Pilots want it voted in by 100 % or voted down by 100 %.

Its all about unity.

 

[EMB145FO]

Neal,

Yes, I did attend a Road Show. You did an excellent job of presenting a TA which you and others have obviously worked your butts off on for the past 2+ years. You should definitely be commended for that.

The essence of my post addressed those that support this TA. I am interested in what specific reasons they believe this TA meets or exceeds expectations. I have seen the slides, read the TA, listened to Q&A, etc. and still don't see a justification to vote on a contract that simply does not meet MY expectations (which are NOT outlandish). I am interested in learning why others are supportive; perhaps, I will then realize what I am missing and change my opinion.

An industry leading contract would be superior in BOTH work rules AND compensation AND of course SCOPE. I am satisifed with the scope. Our compensation is definitely NOT superior. Our work rules improvements are nice - but not good enough to overcome such inferior compensation. Our compensation COULD be industry leading if certain expectations we hope for are achieved. Of course, we all know that "Hope is not a strategy". Specifically, hourly rates are obviously sub par; to achieve "industry leading" compensation we must:

1. Hope that our profit sharing pays as expected - (about 8%); disregarding the companies history of paying profit sharing to pilots, there is certainly not enough trust to leave this amount of compensation in the hands of management. Not only that, but what protections do we have if profit sharing is not necessarily cancelled but pays lower that assumed? Will the company make up the difference to keep us as the best compensated pilots in the industry? Of course not. How about when our deal with CAL is negotiated? Will we still get a nice 8% proft sharing check? No one knows. On one hand we are told that the success of the past few years are to be expected later, hence the expectation of bountiful Profit Sharing checks. On the other hand, we are told that the airlines are in such dissaray we are lucky to get what we have because the industry has not yet bottomed out. Which one is it? Are things going to get worse (hence the need to take this and run)? If so, should we then NOT expect a generous profit sharing check later on? Finally, even if profit sharing is cancelled, the 3% increase in rates across the board is obviously not enough to maintain industry leading pay. Too much left to chance.

2. Hope that the company "flags" enough trips so we can get 150% pay. (Since 2000 I have yet to see the company volunteer to help me make more money). Why would they start now? Again, too much left to chance.

3. Hope that there are enough stand-ups and red eyes to pick up to take advantage of certain new work rules. (In the past year I have flown exactly 1 red-eye and zero stand-ups.) Even if these increase, how many pilots are going to actually be able to take advantage of it? Again, too much left to chance.

4. Hope that I can give up my day off to train and earn 150% pay. Coupled with having to work 80-90 hours to attain industry leading W2, giving up a day off to train does not improve my quality of life.

5. Hope that leg by leg pay adds 2-4% to our pay. Don't get me wrong, this is a welcomed improvement that would definitely pay out. But many other "industry leading contracts" already have leg by leg (Comair, CHQ, etc). Leg by leg simply brings us up to par with those carriers.

6. Hope for more opportunities for Customs pay, repo. pay (of which we already get for international repo's), etc., etc.

Neal, the primary issue is the claim that this TA promises industry leading pay when in actuality it falls short. With the bold assumption of 8% profit sharing we come close, but still fall short. There is simply too much left to hope and chance. Is there something that I am not understanding? Trust me, I want this to be over like everyone else. I certainly don't want this to drag on. But I'm not ready to cut my losses and wait until next time.

Finally, my choice of words for the union's view on the industry's outlook (i.e. "doom and gloom") was perhaps inflammatory. That is a mere reflection of my frustration and (hopefully) misperception that the union has "given up" on achieving a truly industry leading contract.

The "facts and the reality" - as you put it - is our airline made over $100 million last year in PROFIT. This all occured during what has been called "the perfect storm". I have never heard of a management team saying conditions are so great that we will give you whatever you want. On the contrary, management has always used every tactic, advantage and excuse to keep as much money away from the pilot group as they could - REGARDLESS OF CIRCUMSTANCES. I don't discount the issues of hardship that legacy carriers are enduring nor the (misled) assumption that our leverage is "impotent" simply because we have a Republican president in office. I do understand however, that in order to achieve a contract that indeed raises the bar, both the pilot group AND union must have a firm resolve.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Did the presentation do it's job if it made him think and still decide to vote NO?

Yes B.S., it would have done its job.

The problem being that if we educate ourselves and still come away with a NO vote additude we're wrong in the eyes of the union reps. Don't treat us like uneducated children.

This isn't true at all. Not even close actually. All we ask is that people attend a presentation, listen, ask the tough questions, and then make an informed decision.

The problem is I'm not interested in clearing $30k after 5 years, but rather $40k+. 60% of captain might get it there but that isn't on the table.

Doesn't mean we didn't try...we had a LOT on the table when this thing started and over the course of 2+ years. We have our reasons for doing what we did in all of these areas and I stand by those reasons - which are discussed at the presentations. If you don't agree with those reasons, that is your opinion of course and I respect it.

-Neal

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Neal,

Yes, I did attend a Road Show.

I don't have much time to counter your post line by line (although I would like to rationally debate the issues) because it is 0130 and I haven't slept in over a week, but I will say that I appreciate your very professional and well-thought-out post and your ability to think clearly through the issues, despite the fact I disagree on some points you made. Nonetheless, I am glad you attended a presentation and you obviously took a lot away from it, whichever way that you decide to vote and that is all we asked at the very beginning of the presentation. Bravo to you.

We never said profit sharing would be 8% going forward. As a matter of fact, we even used 7% for our W-2 examples and disclosed the fact that in 2006 and beyond, due to the CPA performance incentives going away, P.S. would be more like 5% to 6%.

If you'd like to give me a call, you probably can find my number or definitely email me. There are some other counter-points so I will leave you with these few parting thoughts...

Our pilots:

1. Love our killer vacation system.
2. Love our prohibition on training-on-days-off.
3. Hate the notion or thought of PBS (let alone the archaic SBS)
4. Love our current 401k plan (let alone our much improved new plan)
5. Love our trip trading system generally (much improved with the new 60-hour floor coming soon)
6. Will love the penalty for the rolling of a reserve pilot's day off (150% add pay and day-off restored)
7. Will love our new reserve system generally.
8. Will love our new FBO system.
9. Will love our Scope/Holding Company language.

There are other areas that we can compare such as Comair's sick leave accrual to ours, etc, but I'll leave that for another time as we are preparing a comparison document for XJT pilot review.

Clearly Comair has some great contractual provisions (including their rates obviously) and they fought very hard for those provisions but as we said in the presentation, to focus in one area would be myopic in nature and we must look at their rates in the context of their whole agreement just as we must look at our rates in the context of our whole agreement. Please also remember the time period and industry environment when Comair negotiated their contract, coupled by the fact that they more or less achieved ACA+1% and ARW soon after achieved Comair+1%.

Is there a possibility that things could get better and we could get a release, etc, thus providing us with significantly more leverage? Of course. Is there a possibility that things could get worse as well? Of course. Those possibilities are what a pilot must think about when weighing the risks and rewards a "yes" vote versus a "no" vote.

Drop me a line sometime.

-Neal

 

[EMB145FO]

Neal - thank you for your tireless and often under-appreciated hard work. You make some good points. I'll certainly drop you a line or catch up at a Road Show.

--TGR
IAH FO

 

[JetLinkin Park]

I think that the road show will give you some numbers for 5th year FO's that will easily clear the 30 grand mark.

This statement alone is very frightening to me. Guess I should be pleased that a 5 year FO will break through the 30K barrier. WAHOO!! I'll go tell the wife and kids that in two years I'll be making as much as the school bus driver!!

 

[Nova]

Haven't you seen the new motto? "Bus Driver + 1%"

 

[Britpilot]

This statement alone is very frightening to me. Guess I should be pleased that a 5 year FO will break through the 30K barrier. WAHOO!! I'll go tell the wife and kids that in two years I'll be making as much as the school bus driver!!

I don't know any 5 year fo's that don't or don't want to bid captain.

 

[Nova]

I don't know any 5 year fo's that don't or don't want to bid captain.

The biggest problems aren't now but in 1 year time when the last Flowback is gone and the 112 have followed. Our seniority list could become more still than anyone can imagine after that. Now the current 3 and 4 year FO's are looking to be 5, 6, 7 or 8 year FO's.

It's important to look beyond cashing the retro check as whether this contract serves the needs of our most junior pilots as well as the senior for the contract duration. In 2009-10 will the FO's here be thankful that they'll have topped out at $44/hour and have waited 8 years to break $40k a year?

Stating that FO's have a future Captain slot to look forward to ease their financial needs is based on false hope and is petty. "I got mine so eventually you'll get yours" ??? It appears no matter how much the Captain ranks stated their intentions to not leave the FO's behind they still don't understand the struggles of 4+ year FO. Having not walked a mile in those shoes must have clouded their vision.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

The biggest problems aren't now but in 1 year time when the last Flowback is gone and the 112 have followed. Our seniority list could become more still than anyone can imagine after that. Now the current 3 and 4 year FO's are looking to be 5, 6, 7 or 8 year FO's.

It's important to look beyond cashing the retro check as whether this contract serves the needs of our most junior pilots as well as the senior for the contract duration. In 2009-10 will the FO's here be thankful that they'll have topped out at $44/hour and have waited 8 years to break $40k a year?

Stating that FO's have a future Captain slot to look forward to ease their financial needs is based on false hope and is petty. "I got mine so eventually you'll get yours" ??? It appears no matter how much the Captain ranks stated their intentions to not leave the FO's behind they still don't understand the struggles of 4+ year FO. Having not walked a mile in those shoes must have clouded their vision.

That is precisely why we fought hard to add 2 years to the FO longevity scale.

-Neal

 

[Nova]

That is precisely why we fought hard to add 2 years to the FO longevity scale.

-Neal

And for that I'm thankful Neal but it's only half the issue IMHO.

 

[JetLinkin Park]

And for that I'm thankful Neal but it's only half the issue IMHO.

I agree with Nova Neal. It's hard to get excited about a longevity scale when there's no pay scale. JMHO.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

I agree with Nova Neal. It's hard to get excited about a longevity scale when there's no pay scale. JMHO.

Here are the longevity scale increases:

First Officers
nYear 1-2 49.0%
nYear 2-3 6.2%
nYear 3-4 6.7%
nYear 5-8 3.0%



Those increases above do not factor in the 12/1 raise of 2.5% per year either. FO's, year over year, get far greater increases than Captains and furthermore, FO's will receive a bigger increase on DOS than Captains.

You said there is "no pay scale" but obviously what I think you meant to say is that you don't like the start point. We did the best we could on that starting point, however.

-Neal

 

[Ace McCoy]

Deja vu all over again

I just started reading this thread today and boy does it remind me of the (not so) good old days of last January here at Mesaba.

It starts off with the annoucement of the TA and everyone is happy.

"Hooray, I hear it is industry leading!"

This quickly morphs into "Wait a minute maybe it is not so great"

Which then leads to " this thing is going down in flames for sure!! The pay rates sux0r and I'm voting no. 80% will vote NO!"

An ALPA rep gets on and says "wait a minute go to the road shows to hear what we have to say. And remember it is all about the W2."

After the road show the captains (who have more to lose) and those from IAH (Most of our yes votes were from MSP based captains or people who were from MSP) respond, "I'm voting yes this is the best we can do."

The FO's respond "You're sell outs! we need to strike!"

And in the end the road shows convince just enough FO's to vote yes and the thing passes 66-33.

When I first saw Mesaba's TA I thought it was going down 80-20. After a week I thought it was going to be a close no vote. Then once I went to a road show I knew it was all over...it was gonna pass 60-40. The actual number was 66% yes.

It is (hilarious, uncanny, scary sad? Fill in the blank) how Coex is following the same curve we did.

So yes Coex guys and gals, pretty much no matter what this thing will pass. With the exception of Comair all regionals pass the first one. It is super disappointing to some that your next chance won't be for six more years but don't worry the pain goes away after a few months. It's been about 9 months for me and it doesn't hurt (much) anymore.

Good luck y'all

 

[Nova]

Your probably right Ace. Just as the union reps. and pilots said we wouldn't be another Mesaba the pilot group will be herded like sheep and it'll pass with a YES vote.

It appears that the balls of this group have shrunk over the last 2 years. Now more than ever my hat is off to the Comair pilot group for what they did.

 

[contract2002]

Your probably right Ace. Just as the union reps. and pilots said we wouldn't be another Mesaba the pilot group will be herded like sheep and it'll pass with a YES vote.

It appears that the balls of this group have shrunk over the last 2 years. Now more than ever my hat is off to the Comair pilot group for what they did.

If you're not part of the solution....

 

[Nova]

you work for Mesa?

 

[Sam Fisher]

you work for Mesa?

Exactly. Sadly, many pilots don't realize the negative effects of "pattern bargaining."

Sam