Ex-United pilots weigh future without pension

[SWAdude]

Thanks to all who have taken a stand for me but it really isn't necessary. I'm sure that Canyonblue has good intentions and they were misunderstood.

After our little back and forth, I re-read the posts and started to laugh when I saw how silly they were. This forum lets you hide behind a mask and say things you normally wouldn't. We all take advantage of that. "I'm putting you on my avoidance bid!!" "Good! I'm glad." would not take place if we didn't have the mask to hide behind. I try to remember that and conduct myself as such but also get a little lost in the cover. There is a chance that Canyonblue, RVR300 and SWA/FO (although I can't remember getting sideways with him) and I have flown together. A higher chance that we have drank together (of course I bought ) and almost a certainty we have met somewhere during a plane change. This forum being one dimensional can bring the worse out of people when they are misunderstood.

My apologizes to my fellow SWA folks if you think I crossed some line that I shouldn't have because you and I work for the same company. But I will call a spade a spade no matter who one is if I believe they are doing someone wrong. I do that in defense of my family, friends, coworkers and my profession.

If you really think you need my employee number for the avoidance bid I will be happy to send it to you. But I'm sure were based in different cities. If you feel you need it, let me know.

Canyonblue, Please feel free to grade my grammar on this post. Your right, my high school in Kentucky wasn't very thorough.

Respectfully,

SWAdude

 

[SWAdude]

let me remind everyone that years ago Pan Am, with its "ownership" of the predecessor to the FAA, and its international route dominance, was "the place" to be hired

years later, we were all reminded via Kit Darby and others how Delta "never furloughed, ever, in its history"

don't anyone get too cocky and think SWA, while yes, one of the best run, well managed companies in America, cannot also, fall prey to outside airline market forces and it too have problems

"well, not at SWA, I mean, this is SWA" is the wrong stance to have, because many many before at other carriers said the same thing.

dont get your tampons in a wad if you dont like this post. If the shoe does not fit, dont reach down and put it on, then b1tch to me your feet hurt. A few on this board (on this thread) should pay attention however

my 2 cents

Well said and agree 100%.

 

[TAZ MAN]

Thanks to all who have taken a stand for me but it really isn't necessary. I'm sure that Canyonblue has good intentions and they were misunderstood.

After our little back and forth, I re-read the posts and started to laugh when I saw how silly they were. This forum lets you hide behind a mask and say things you normally wouldn't. We all take advantage of that. "I'm putting you on my avoidance bid!!" "Good! I'm glad." would not take place if we didn't have the mask to hide behind. I try to remember that and conduct myself as such but also get a little lost in the cover. There is a chance that Canyonblue, RVR300 and SWA/FO (although I can't remember getting sideways with him) and I have flown together. A higher chance that we have drank together (of course I bought ) and almost a certainty we have met somewhere during a plane change. This forum being one dimensional can bring the worse out of people when they are misunderstood.

My apologizes to my fellow SWA folks if you think I crossed some line that I shouldn't have because you and I work for the same company. But I will call a spade a spade no matter who one is if I believe they are doing someone wrong. I do that in defense of my family, friends, coworkers and my profession.

If you really think you need my employee number for the avoidance bid I will be happy to send it to you. But I'm sure were based in different cities. If you feel you need it, let me know.

Canyonblue, Please feel free to grade my grammar on this post. Your right, my high school in Kentucky wasn't very thorough.

Respectfully,

SWAdude

Great post! And so true. On the contrary you sound like the kind of level headed person I would want to fly with. You are one of the reasons I will always believe that the SWA pilots are class acts. Always treat me so well when I jumpseat. No expectations. Just good to see you, hope you enjoy the ride.

 

[bafanguy]

This thread began about guys being retired and having the rug pulled out from under them. A lot of good thoughts have been posted if you put aside a few of the ancillary issues that were thrown in.

I'd normally stay out of those subjects where opinion rules over fact, but this issue doesn't fit that criterion. It's a FACT that the paradigm has shifted. I hope that all the younger pilots with time left in their careers and those brave enough to enter will really learn something from the dialogue. I learned a lot from the old capts I worked with, flying along listening to their stories of failed attempts to be the Coin Laundry King of GA, paying for college educations out of pocket, supporting the toys, large mortgages...and yes, ex wives. Perhaps this forum will actually have a redeeming social value by letting this matter get front page attention for the younger folks who perhaps don't have access to an old f@rt with a sad story to tell. YOU will be at this career point, if not in this position, and before you realize it.

We're all products of that to which we are exposed. I was fortunate to grow up in a house where my dad was credit manager for some crummy little department stores. I'd listen to the dinner-table conversation about the people who were unable to pay their bills and, more importantly, what happened to them. I ended up with an almost patheological aversion to owing people money.

When I factored in the stories from the old guys, it left an impression. At the risk of being trite...stay out of debt. If you have to live down a notch or two, so be it; you can't live like Trump if you fly an airplane for a living, so don't try it.

The next factor is time. If you're young, you don't have to make $300K/year to end up financially secure; you just have to save a reasonable amount over the long haul. You have Roth's, 401K's, 529's for the kids, etc., lots of ways to sock it away. Do it and don't touch it even if you have to live in your car !!

There are lots of cool things to spend money on with most of them being worthless in the big picture. The very coolest thing to spend on is your dignity and peace of mind in old age. My dad worked full-time until he was 90, and my mom until she was 88......because they had to; too proud to take a handout. They had a bit of money but came dangerously close to being wards of the state by the time they died. That is NOT cool and the big house, boats, fancy cars, etc., will look pretty lame from a crappy nursing home as your meager savings burn down at rates approaching government waste. Being old is VERY expensive...that's what those UAL guys are rightly worried about after a lifetime of being productive, responsible people.

Of course, we all get help in forming our decisions about where/how to spend. When I was a 727 capt, I'd watch these new FE's get into the big house in P'tree City because DL indoc folks pumped them full of sunshine about their future, about how they'd have the great retirement in the end, yadda X 3. We'll see about that one. There are a few disturbing examples available to us all, demonstrating what happens when it doesn't follow the forecast.

If you actually read all of this clap-trap I've written, thank's. It's just such an important subject that I couldn't keep quiet.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

bafan bump

 

[Andy]

"And for safety's sake, do not allow anyone over 60 to be PIC". WTF does that mean? I assume that if you were actually over 60, and flying as SIC you would probably still get a leg once and awhile? So if I could kill you as SIC, when God for bid I had my hands on the controls why would it make any difference if I was the PIC in the first place?

The age 60 deal is bogus at best. You can see from the posts on this subject that it is driven by either the Jr. guy/gal wanting to move up, or by the Sr. guy/gal wanting to stay a little longer. Both have their merits. But to suggest that a pilot becomes unsafe one day after he turns age sixty is simply out of bounds for any reasonable person to believe.

Don't know where you fly but looks like some Air Force time in your logs perhaps. When you went through PT did you were assigned 4 engine transports. Was this because you were not at the top of your class? I am sure that you do not believe that you are a lessor pilot just because you did not get F15's or F16"s? Hell no, you worked your butt off and became the best you could simply out of personal pride (I assume?). Some of us older guys have that same quality. In either case the idea that age 60 makes you unfit as a PIC is just really uncalled for.

BTW. I am an old fart and over 62. Still flying a Boeing as PIC, all over the world with guys who are younger than myself. Don't see them grabbing the controls and sweating every decision or takeoff and landing that I make. Not sure what your life experiences are that make you feel so insecure but most AF guys that I know don't seem to suffer from this problem. How did this infliction get to you?

I usually only quote excerpts of posts that I respond to, but I want to make sure that no one thinks that I'm taking anything out of context.
What does my safety concern have anything to do with me feeling insecure? I view this as a huge safety issue.
I'll be happy to talk about my flying abilities, both during UPT and now. I could write 'Hormel' on my left hand and 'Armour' on my right hand during UPT. I lacked the natural flying skills, ability, and finesse that my FARed classmates displayed. I knew that while going through UPT, and I know it now. I worked my a$$ off just to graduate from UPT, near the very bottom of my class. I was not ashamed then, and I'm not ashamed to admit it publically today. As for my current abilities, I am adequate. I am not as gifted as other pilots, but safe enough to have as many landings as takeoffs in my logbook. To quote Clint Eastwood, "A man's got to know his limitations."

The reason why I am favor of no PIC after age 60 is that your skills and abilities deteriorate as you age. Some people faster than others. Problem is, pilots have oversized egos and are (usually) unwilling to admit that they've lost a step over the years.
I can remember getting my FE written (back in the early 90s), and there was an airline pilot approaching age 60 in our class. It took him ten minutes just to get out of the parking lot in his car; he was lost in a not-too-complex parking lot! If you think that I'm exaggerating, I'm not; the ground instructor commented to me while watching the event. It was painful to watch.
Not everyone ages the same; Father Time can be cruel to one person while sparing another. However, both those that have been seriously impaired due to age and those that have progressed through life unscathed think that they are perfectly competent to command an aircraft. There are 'good ol boy' networks in every company that will look the other way when 'ol Jim shows up to take his checkride. Do I need to discuss 'pilot friendly' AMEs?
It is purely for safety that I favor no PIC past 60. Why would you want to compromise safety by opposing it?

 

[PHXFLYR]

This thread began about guys being retired and having the rug pulled out from under them. A lot of good thoughts have been posted if you put aside a few of the ancillary issues that were thrown in.

I'd normally stay out of those subjects where opinion rules over fact, but this issue doesn't fit that criterion. It's a FACT that the paradigm has shifted. I hope that all the younger pilots with time left in their careers and those brave enough to enter will really learn something from the dialogue. I learned a lot from the old capts I worked with, flying along listening to their stories of failed attempts to be the Coin Laundry King of GA, paying for college educations out of pocket, supporting the toys, large mortgages...and yes, ex wives. Perhaps this forum will actually have a redeeming social value by letting this matter get front page attention for the younger folks who perhaps don't have access to an old f@rt with a sad story to tell. YOU will be at this career point, if not in this position, and before you realize it.

We're all products of that to which we are exposed. I was fortunate to grow up in a house where my dad was credit manager for some crummy little department stores. I'd listen to the dinner-table conversation about the people who were unable to pay their bills and, more importantly, what happened to them. I ended up with an almost patheological aversion to owing people money.

When I factored in the stories from the old guys, it left an impression. At the risk of being trite...stay out of debt. If you have to live down a notch or two, so be it; you can't live like Trump if you fly an airplane for a living, so don't try it.

The next factor is time. If you're young, you don't have to make $300K/year to end up financially secure; you just have to save a reasonable amount over the long haul. You have Roth's, 401K's, 529's for the kids, etc., lots of ways to sock it away. Do it and don't touch it even if you have to live in your car !!

There are lots of cool things to spend money on with most of them being worthless in the big picture. The very coolest thing to spend on is your dignity and peace of mind in old age. My dad worked full-time until he was 90, and my mom until she was 88......because they had to; too proud to take a handout. They had a bit of money but came dangerously close to being wards of the state by the time they died. That is NOT cool and the big house, boats, fancy cars, etc., will look pretty lame from a crappy nursing home as your meager savings burn down at rates approaching government waste. Being old is VERY expensive...that's what those UAL guys are rightly worried about after a lifetime of being productive, responsible people.

Of course, we all get help in forming our decisions about where/how to spend. When I was a 727 capt, I'd watch these new FE's get into the big house in P'tree City because DL indoc folks pumped them full of sunshine about their future, about how they'd have the great retirement in the end, yadda X 3. We'll see about that one. There are a few disturbing examples available to us all, demonstrating what happens when it doesn't follow the forecast.

If you actually read all of this clap-trap I've written, thank's. It's just such an important subject that I couldn't keep quiet.

Bafanguy;



Great post . Should be required reading for all new hires. Thanks for taking the time to post.


PHXFLYR

 

[capt. megadeth]

Bafanguy,
VERY VERY WELL SAID! Unfortunately, some people will still never get it.

 

[race#53]

While watching 3 TED flights yesterday at MCO go off full with 1953 senority
employees left behind i had a chance to talk to a retired 747 Capt. who said he did not think the pension problems would affect him as he was only getting $1,100 per month from UAL.......is that possible?
i bailed and went to SWA and had a great flight home on a new plane with leather seats and young friendly FA's.
As to assigned or open seating, i like the ability to check the area out first,
i found an open isle seat with middle open 4 rows back.

 

[Spooky 1]

I usually only quote excerpts of posts that I respond to, but I want to make sure that no one thinks that I'm taking anything out of context.
What does my safety concern have anything to do with me feeling insecure? I view this as a huge safety issue.
I'll be happy to talk about my flying abilities, both during UPT and now. I could write 'Hormel' on my left hand and 'Armour' on my right hand during UPT. I lacked the natural flying skills, ability, and finesse that my FARed classmates displayed. I knew that while going through UPT, and I know it now. I worked my a$$ off just to graduate from UPT, near the very bottom of my class. I was not ashamed then, and I'm not ashamed to admit it publically today. As for my current abilities, I am adequate. I am not as gifted as other pilots, but safe enough to have as many landings as takeoffs in my logbook. To quote Clint Eastwood, "A man's got to know his limitations."

The reason why I am favor of no PIC after age 60 is that your skills and abilities deteriorate as you age. Some people faster than others. Problem is, pilots have oversized egos and are (usually) unwilling to admit that they've lost a step over the years.
I can remember getting my FE written (back in the early 90s), and there was an airline pilot approaching age 60 in our class. It took him ten minutes just to get out of the parking lot in his car; he was lost in a not-too-complex parking lot! If you think that I'm exaggerating, I'm not; the ground instructor commented to me while watching the event. It was painful to watch.
Not everyone ages the same; Father Time can be cruel to one person while sparing another. However, both those that have been seriously impaired due to age and those that have progressed through life unscathed think that they are perfectly competent to command an aircraft. There are 'good ol boy' networks in every company that will look the other way when 'ol Jim shows up to take his checkride. Do I need to discuss 'pilot friendly' AMEs?
It is purely for safety that I favor no PIC past 60. Why would you want to compromise safety by opposing it?

I know that when the original ROPES were coming to the line there were memebers of this community that struggled with their new positions and areas of responsibility. There was also a huge potential for law suits arising from anyone who spoke poorly about this groups performance during their conversion to flight engineer status. Some of them had absoulutely no trouble at all while others struggeled with their new found positions in life. Not sure excactly where you are coming from on the AME issue as the FAA has pretty well dictated the parameters that need to be met for a FAA 1st Class. I suppose there are areas that could be marginalized if one were to submit to your logic. Maybe we should go back to company doctors and physicals? I don't think so.

You must know that there are pilots in their 40's or 50's that exhibit marginal performance, either through poor flying skills, aka stick and rudder or most often in attitude towards the job. So if that were the case and you are still worried about the age 60 PIC issue perhaps we should seriously tighten up on all of our PC's, physicals, etc., mabe even an annual visit to the shrink, so that we can make sure there is a level playing field for all of us to adhere to. Also, I reject the notion that there are good ole boy networks in any major airlines today. The risk factor is just to great for any company to bear. Maybe some of the not so big airlines, but I find that hard to believe as well. Don't know where you came from but if that condition existed at your comapny, please do us all a favor let us know so we can all avoid this carrier.

Also, somebody should get a hold of Burt Rutan asap and make sure that he does not let that 63 year old pilot, Mike Melville get behind the controls of Space Ship One again. Thankfully my current employer puts some significant value on experience and as long as I pass both my 1st Class physical and all my six month sim checks I guess I should not worry about continued employement.

BTW since you invoked your FE experiences I have always thought that the current practice of taking your FE written after just a week or so of craming with virtualy all the correct answers on the FAA exam being reviewed before you even took the test a really bogus expample of certification. I have taken two writtens in my life time that were real ball busters, one the FE circa 1964 and later the Flight Navigator circa 1968. I am sure that there is nothing like this in todays FAA. If there was I am confident we would not see the diploma mills that have prolifierated avaition today.