Ex-United pilots weigh future without pension

[Andy]

"And for safety's sake, do not allow anyone over 60 to be PIC". WTF does that mean? I assume that if you were actually over 60, and flying as SIC you would probably still get a leg once and awhile? So if I could kill you as SIC, when God for bid I had my hands on the controls why would it make any difference if I was the PIC in the first place?

The age 60 deal is bogus at best. You can see from the posts on this subject that it is driven by either the Jr. guy/gal wanting to move up, or by the Sr. guy/gal wanting to stay a little longer. Both have their merits. But to suggest that a pilot becomes unsafe one day after he turns age sixty is simply out of bounds for any reasonable person to believe.

Don't know where you fly but looks like some Air Force time in your logs perhaps. When you went through PT did you were assigned 4 engine transports. Was this because you were not at the top of your class? I am sure that you do not believe that you are a lessor pilot just because you did not get F15's or F16"s? Hell no, you worked your butt off and became the best you could simply out of personal pride (I assume?). Some of us older guys have that same quality. In either case the idea that age 60 makes you unfit as a PIC is just really uncalled for.

BTW. I am an old fart and over 62. Still flying a Boeing as PIC, all over the world with guys who are younger than myself. Don't see them grabbing the controls and sweating every decision or takeoff and landing that I make. Not sure what your life experiences are that make you feel so insecure but most AF guys that I know don't seem to suffer from this problem. How did this infliction get to you?

I usually only quote excerpts of posts that I respond to, but I want to make sure that no one thinks that I'm taking anything out of context.
What does my safety concern have anything to do with me feeling insecure? I view this as a huge safety issue.
I'll be happy to talk about my flying abilities, both during UPT and now. I could write 'Hormel' on my left hand and 'Armour' on my right hand during UPT. I lacked the natural flying skills, ability, and finesse that my FARed classmates displayed. I knew that while going through UPT, and I know it now. I worked my a$$ off just to graduate from UPT, near the very bottom of my class. I was not ashamed then, and I'm not ashamed to admit it publically today. As for my current abilities, I am adequate. I am not as gifted as other pilots, but safe enough to have as many landings as takeoffs in my logbook. To quote Clint Eastwood, "A man's got to know his limitations."

The reason why I am favor of no PIC after age 60 is that your skills and abilities deteriorate as you age. Some people faster than others. Problem is, pilots have oversized egos and are (usually) unwilling to admit that they've lost a step over the years.
I can remember getting my FE written (back in the early 90s), and there was an airline pilot approaching age 60 in our class. It took him ten minutes just to get out of the parking lot in his car; he was lost in a not-too-complex parking lot! If you think that I'm exaggerating, I'm not; the ground instructor commented to me while watching the event. It was painful to watch.
Not everyone ages the same; Father Time can be cruel to one person while sparing another. However, both those that have been seriously impaired due to age and those that have progressed through life unscathed think that they are perfectly competent to command an aircraft. There are 'good ol boy' networks in every company that will look the other way when 'ol Jim shows up to take his checkride. Do I need to discuss 'pilot friendly' AMEs?
It is purely for safety that I favor no PIC past 60. Why would you want to compromise safety by opposing it?

 

[PHXFLYR]

This thread began about guys being retired and having the rug pulled out from under them. A lot of good thoughts have been posted if you put aside a few of the ancillary issues that were thrown in.

I'd normally stay out of those subjects where opinion rules over fact, but this issue doesn't fit that criterion. It's a FACT that the paradigm has shifted. I hope that all the younger pilots with time left in their careers and those brave enough to enter will really learn something from the dialogue. I learned a lot from the old capts I worked with, flying along listening to their stories of failed attempts to be the Coin Laundry King of GA, paying for college educations out of pocket, supporting the toys, large mortgages...and yes, ex wives. Perhaps this forum will actually have a redeeming social value by letting this matter get front page attention for the younger folks who perhaps don't have access to an old f@rt with a sad story to tell. YOU will be at this career point, if not in this position, and before you realize it.

We're all products of that to which we are exposed. I was fortunate to grow up in a house where my dad was credit manager for some crummy little department stores. I'd listen to the dinner-table conversation about the people who were unable to pay their bills and, more importantly, what happened to them. I ended up with an almost patheological aversion to owing people money.

When I factored in the stories from the old guys, it left an impression. At the risk of being trite...stay out of debt. If you have to live down a notch or two, so be it; you can't live like Trump if you fly an airplane for a living, so don't try it.

The next factor is time. If you're young, you don't have to make $300K/year to end up financially secure; you just have to save a reasonable amount over the long haul. You have Roth's, 401K's, 529's for the kids, etc., lots of ways to sock it away. Do it and don't touch it even if you have to live in your car !!

There are lots of cool things to spend money on with most of them being worthless in the big picture. The very coolest thing to spend on is your dignity and peace of mind in old age. My dad worked full-time until he was 90, and my mom until she was 88......because they had to; too proud to take a handout. They had a bit of money but came dangerously close to being wards of the state by the time they died. That is NOT cool and the big house, boats, fancy cars, etc., will look pretty lame from a crappy nursing home as your meager savings burn down at rates approaching government waste. Being old is VERY expensive...that's what those UAL guys are rightly worried about after a lifetime of being productive, responsible people.

Of course, we all get help in forming our decisions about where/how to spend. When I was a 727 capt, I'd watch these new FE's get into the big house in P'tree City because DL indoc folks pumped them full of sunshine about their future, about how they'd have the great retirement in the end, yadda X 3. We'll see about that one. There are a few disturbing examples available to us all, demonstrating what happens when it doesn't follow the forecast.

If you actually read all of this clap-trap I've written, thank's. It's just such an important subject that I couldn't keep quiet.

Bafanguy;



Great post . Should be required reading for all new hires. Thanks for taking the time to post.


PHXFLYR

 

[capt. megadeth]

Bafanguy,
VERY VERY WELL SAID! Unfortunately, some people will still never get it.

 

[race#53]

While watching 3 TED flights yesterday at MCO go off full with 1953 senority
employees left behind i had a chance to talk to a retired 747 Capt. who said he did not think the pension problems would affect him as he was only getting $1,100 per month from UAL.......is that possible?
i bailed and went to SWA and had a great flight home on a new plane with leather seats and young friendly FA's.
As to assigned or open seating, i like the ability to check the area out first,
i found an open isle seat with middle open 4 rows back.

 

[Spooky 1]

I usually only quote excerpts of posts that I respond to, but I want to make sure that no one thinks that I'm taking anything out of context.
What does my safety concern have anything to do with me feeling insecure? I view this as a huge safety issue.
I'll be happy to talk about my flying abilities, both during UPT and now. I could write 'Hormel' on my left hand and 'Armour' on my right hand during UPT. I lacked the natural flying skills, ability, and finesse that my FARed classmates displayed. I knew that while going through UPT, and I know it now. I worked my a$$ off just to graduate from UPT, near the very bottom of my class. I was not ashamed then, and I'm not ashamed to admit it publically today. As for my current abilities, I am adequate. I am not as gifted as other pilots, but safe enough to have as many landings as takeoffs in my logbook. To quote Clint Eastwood, "A man's got to know his limitations."

The reason why I am favor of no PIC after age 60 is that your skills and abilities deteriorate as you age. Some people faster than others. Problem is, pilots have oversized egos and are (usually) unwilling to admit that they've lost a step over the years.
I can remember getting my FE written (back in the early 90s), and there was an airline pilot approaching age 60 in our class. It took him ten minutes just to get out of the parking lot in his car; he was lost in a not-too-complex parking lot! If you think that I'm exaggerating, I'm not; the ground instructor commented to me while watching the event. It was painful to watch.
Not everyone ages the same; Father Time can be cruel to one person while sparing another. However, both those that have been seriously impaired due to age and those that have progressed through life unscathed think that they are perfectly competent to command an aircraft. There are 'good ol boy' networks in every company that will look the other way when 'ol Jim shows up to take his checkride. Do I need to discuss 'pilot friendly' AMEs?
It is purely for safety that I favor no PIC past 60. Why would you want to compromise safety by opposing it?

I know that when the original ROPES were coming to the line there were memebers of this community that struggled with their new positions and areas of responsibility. There was also a huge potential for law suits arising from anyone who spoke poorly about this groups performance during their conversion to flight engineer status. Some of them had absoulutely no trouble at all while others struggeled with their new found positions in life. Not sure excactly where you are coming from on the AME issue as the FAA has pretty well dictated the parameters that need to be met for a FAA 1st Class. I suppose there are areas that could be marginalized if one were to submit to your logic. Maybe we should go back to company doctors and physicals? I don't think so.

You must know that there are pilots in their 40's or 50's that exhibit marginal performance, either through poor flying skills, aka stick and rudder or most often in attitude towards the job. So if that were the case and you are still worried about the age 60 PIC issue perhaps we should seriously tighten up on all of our PC's, physicals, etc., mabe even an annual visit to the shrink, so that we can make sure there is a level playing field for all of us to adhere to. Also, I reject the notion that there are good ole boy networks in any major airlines today. The risk factor is just to great for any company to bear. Maybe some of the not so big airlines, but I find that hard to believe as well. Don't know where you came from but if that condition existed at your comapny, please do us all a favor let us know so we can all avoid this carrier.

Also, somebody should get a hold of Burt Rutan asap and make sure that he does not let that 63 year old pilot, Mike Melville get behind the controls of Space Ship One again. Thankfully my current employer puts some significant value on experience and as long as I pass both my 1st Class physical and all my six month sim checks I guess I should not worry about continued employement.

BTW since you invoked your FE experiences I have always thought that the current practice of taking your FE written after just a week or so of craming with virtualy all the correct answers on the FAA exam being reviewed before you even took the test a really bogus expample of certification. I have taken two writtens in my life time that were real ball busters, one the FE circa 1964 and later the Flight Navigator circa 1968. I am sure that there is nothing like this in todays FAA. If there was I am confident we would not see the diploma mills that have prolifierated avaition today.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Andy,

FWIW ... I agree with your last post 100%! With 7, shortly going to 9 distinct fleet types at my airline, it is disconcerting (to say the least) to witness guys approaching 60 absolutely STRUGGLE through training on another fleet type. BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION, they caution the youngsters how difficult they perceive the training as they've aged.

I've witnessed it on the line. Not all approaching 60 have noticeably deteriorated flight skills, but I have witnessed more than a few and enough to convince me the arbitrary number of 60 is probably just about right on. My father retired as a physician before age 60 as he felt his own skills slipping. He said many of his colleagues knew their own skills were also slipping but their egos would just not let go. If I'm not mistaken air traffic controllers also face a mandatory retirement age (believe it's 55?).

BBB

 

[Spooky 1]

BeerBelly and Andy you are right when argue that moving up to new equipment can be a very challenging experieince for the older pilot. Having said that I can recall a number of much younger pilots including myself struggle with the new fangled B757/767 equipment when it first came on the scene. I was use to pushing things to get a response as I had been on the DC10 for a few years before moving down to the 57/67. But, you know what I got through okay, thanks to some young talented instructors and now having flown any number of glass cockpits I don't think that if you put me through another one I would have any more problems than the 40 year old sitting along side of me.

I guess where I work we are kind of unique in that we have some military equipment in our flight department. Supersonic hot **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** stuff that our pilots get to fly regulary, if they have been signed off for such flying. I assume with your reasoning that these pilots should not be doing this type of flying since they are over 50 and rapidly approaching 60, my God call the FAA please and put an end to this recklessness. Also fly a Twin Otter on floats. Can be very demanding for such an old fart. Certainly more difficult and hazardous than any B737 flying. Which BTW, you could teach a 200 hour pilot to fly reasonably well in just a few hours. Wittness all the diploma mills that crank out B737 type ratings by the dozens. I am getting carried away so I should stop now. Might induce a stroke any Fb737ING second.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

I guess where I work we are kind of unique in that we have some military equipment in our flight department. Supersonic hot **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** stuff that our pilots get to fly regulary, if they have been signed off for such flying. I assume with your reasoning that these pilots should not be doing this type of flying since they are over 50 and rapidly approaching 60, my God call the FAA please and put an end to this recklessness.

Spooky pal, you sound like an old geezer with a bit of an attitude. All I can say is the USAF does not actively recruit any over 60 yr old geezers to fill our tactical cockpits despite their vast "experience". Gee, I wonder why this teeny, weeny little fact escapes you? But hey, apparently you believe all the Air Forces of the industrialized world are missing out on some "hot sticks" with gazillions of hours and chiseled experience.

From my experience and observations, I will again repeat that I believe cognitive abilities, reaction speed, general motor coordination all decline with age and 60 years old seems an appropriate cutoff for the general air carrier pilot population to quit flying part 121 aircraft. The company that I work for does a substantial amount of its flying on the back side of the clock and circadian disruptions and lack of quality sleep are only compounded as we age. That Spooky ... is a FACT. You old geezers can't run with the young dogs and ought to know when to just lay on the porch scratching your fleas. Getting old sucks, we'll all be there some day, but some seem to do it more gracefully than others.

Remember to soak your dentures tonight Spooky, take your Geritol, blood pressure medicine, and pop a Viagra! Oh, and don't misplace your bifocals!! <g>

BBB

 

[Spooky 1]

Spooky pal, you sound like an old geezer with a bit of an attitude. All I can say is the USAF does not actively recruit any over 60 yr old geezers to fill our tactical cockpits despite their vast "experience". Gee, I wonder why this teeny, weeny little fact escapes you? But hey, apparently you believe all the Air Forces of the industrialized world are missing out on some "hot sticks" with gazillions of hours and chiseled experience.

From my experience and observations, I will again repeat that I believe cognitive abilities, reaction speed, general motor coordination all decline with age and 60 years old seems an appropriate cutoff for the general air carrier pilot population to quit flying part 121 aircraft. The company that I work for does a substantial amount of its flying on the back side of the clock and circadian disruptions and lack of quality sleep are only compounded as we age. That Spooky ... is a FACT. You old geezers can't run with the young dogs and ought to know when to just lay on the porch scratching your fleas. Getting old sucks, we'll all be there some day, but some seem to do it more gracefully than others.

Remember to soak your dentures tonight Spooky, take your Geritol, blood pressure medicine, and pop a Viagra! Oh, and don't misplace your bifocals!! <g>

BBB

You guys are a hoot. Enjoying your come backs and hope we run into each other some time as I will proabably picking your sorry fat a#s off the bar floor. I have been running hard for years and never met a trash haulin C141 pilot that I could not take on with ease. As I recall you were the guys with the plastic spoons in your flight jackets hanging around the O'club. I have a picture of you now Big Beer Belly. Wow! I suppose that says it all. At any rate I never suggested that the Air Force or anyone else put old geezers into their cockpits so don't make up bulls$#t in an attempt to get your point accross as it weekens your arguments which may actually have some merit. I never said that this was an open and shut case but it bears further examination. BTW why do you quote me with the term "hot sticks"? I do not recall using that term, but then the memory is one of the first things to go, I think?

S what are you going to do when you have some old geezer sitting next to you, or worse yet when you are in the back of the airplane and can't get your hands on the controls to save the day. God almighty where do we find sorry pilots like you. I am God, therefore you are sh#t type of attitudes. Gotta go now. If I don't take my Viagra the little twenty-eight year old honey gets cranky you know.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

You guys are a hoot. Enjoying your come backs and hope we run into each other some time as I will proabably picking your sorry fat a#s off the bar floor. I have been running hard for years and never met a trash haulin C141 pilot that I could not take on with ease. As I recall you were the guys with the plastic spoons in your flight jackets hanging around the O'club. I have a picture of you now Big Beer Belly. Wow! I suppose that says it all.

God almighty where do we find sorry pilots like you.

Spooky, you old fart, I can feel your blood pressure rising through the monitor. Settle down, take a deep cleansing breath, close your eyes and go to your "happy place" and don't wake up till you're going to talk nicely again! <g>

PS. Good luck with the misses. <vbg>

 

[Spooky 1]

Your right. Lets stop this foolishness and name calling. My Depends get wound up in a knot when I see your posts. All the best!

 

[turn&pull]

The difference between TWA and United pilots...

Something a retiring TWA Captain told me about 7 years ago...

"You know the difference between an old United Captain and an old TWA Captain? The United Captain has 3 fast cars, 3 nice homes and 3 ex wives and if he doesn't get his paycheck in time, something will bounce. The TWA Captain has 1 old car, 1 old house, 1 old wife and has more money than he can spend."

Specific airlines aside, there is a lot of wisdom in that.

 

[satpak77]

also

when I was "new" to aviation, getting my private pilot's license at the age of 17, some old cropduster at the FBO we all used to drink free coffee at, said that I should keep my first wife, and keep my first house.

also dont try to keep up with the Jones, drive your car as long as possible, and live below your means. "Pretend you can be layed off any day" (almost the truth nowadays).

Southlake Texas: Lots of AA Captains with huge houses (I am talking 500K+), non-working wives whose day consists of get up late (no, they dont cook breakfast, "as if"), go to the gym (not much working out, just socializing), then go to the Galleria, then to massage/spa, then go pick up the kids (in their Escalade/Range Rover/BMW SUV) at private school. Ask them how their day is, and its "hectic, busy, I am stressing out." If the above wives are not prescription pill addicts or attending counseling for some "stress disorder" then you found a rare case.

Meanwhile, hubby is praying the furloughs stop and he can make it to the next mortgage payment.

Think the above is not true? Go to Southlake/Colleyville/Flower Mound and its true 10 times over.

Read "Millionaire Next Door." Most millionaires are self-made who drive Ford Tauraus's and live below their means, and own their own business, probably dry cleaners, carpet cleaners, real estate, etc. Not the next Microsoft or the next Wal-Mart. They also "lay low" and you would never know their wealth if you saw them at the supermarket

later

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Read "Millionaire Next Door." Most millionaires are self-made who drive Ford Tauraus's and live below their means, and own their own business, probably dry cleaners, carpet cleaners, real estate, etc. Not the next Microsoft or the next Wal-Mart. They also "lay low" and you would never know their wealth if you saw them at the supermarket

later

Also, these millionare types can live for about 10 years without income, While the typical Benz in front of the Manor, living it up in style type couldn't make two months of bills without income.

There is a difference between material acquisitions and wealth.... One person is smart the other is...well you get the point...

 

[satpak77]

absolutely

the "in debt up to my ears" commercial with a guy who "made it", in front of his house with a new car and white picket fence, is not far from the truth

being "rich" in my opinion is having access to existing large quantities of physical cash, or at least be capable of producing the above in a very short period of time.

he11, anybody can get a line of credit, buy that new BMW (or lease it), sign up for that country club membership (via credit card), and get a no-payment down loan (at a super high interest rate) on that mansion. Now go buy some Gucci suits (use above credit card again) and put a fur coat on your wife (same credit card). At the bar, go ahead and buy a round of drinks for all your "friends"

Now, you are someone who is "rich" and people look up to you. Do the above but wear an airline pilot uniform and all the kids at the local 141 school cant wait to get hired by the majors.