Endeavor Flow for New Hires

[big shacks]

Like some of us haven't been wholly owned before... ******************** come to think of it, I've been wholly owned three effing times now. NWA..Pincha********************ingnickle and now DL.

 

[SpauldingSmails]

More like wholly boned

Or owned in the hole.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

How come your still there? Sounds like you've been there a while.

Like some of us haven't been wholly owned before... ******************** come to think of it, I've been wholly owned three effing times now. NWA..Pincha********************ingnickle and now DL.

 

[big shacks]

Indeed, but that doesn't mean I'm not trying to leave. Endeavor is the worst regional airline ever! It's gone to ********************! Well before the crap contract... three airlines merged and the end result is diarrhea. Three pilot groups that obviously dislike each-other for many reasons.. a toxic work environment, but I and many others will not let that effect our job performance (safety). Once you take a pilots seniority and trash it, you learn to say Fuk ALPA with a smile! Worthless turds vote them out.

 

[A-10_JetMech]

How long can 9e last at the attrition to new hire ratio before DL pulls the plug? Seems like EtD is a failure so far.

 

[jynxyjericho]

How long can 9e last at the attrition to new hire ratio before DL pulls the plug? Seems like EtD is a failure so far.

Well there are plenty of 200s left to park. Obviously Delta would rather Endeavor grow and be this monster feed sucker, but that's been abysmal. Delta managment has to grow up and admit their failure and pour money into Endeavor, or grow up and admit to their other regional partners Endeavor was a failure and they're going to pony up the money to woo them away from all the American and United flying theyre picking up. Third option, milk Endeavor as long as they can and bring the flying in house.

Endeavor pay and work rules (and bases) will drive every pilot on property away and attract 4 dreamers a month.

 

[General Lee]

Well there are plenty of 200s left to park. Obviously Delta would rather Endeavor grow and be this monster feed sucker, but that's been abysmal. Delta managment has to grow up and admit their failure and pour money into Endeavor, or grow up and admit to their other regional partners Endeavor was a failure and they're going to pony up the money to woo them away from all the American and United flying theyre picking up. Third option, milk Endeavor as long as they can and bring the flying in house.

Endeavor pay and work rules (and bases) will drive every pilot on property away and attract 4 dreamers a month.

I have a feeling DL will bring more flying inhouse. DL has no problem attracting new pilots, and there are more 717s and 319s available if needed out there. Pax prefer them anyway, and you can easily replace a few RJ flights with a 717/319. Have you seen the replacement that has already occurred? The 717s go to places like EVV and LFT, while the 319 goes to ROA and CRW. That's a good thing.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[jynxyjericho]

I have a feeling DL will bring more flying inhouse. DL has no problem attracting new pilots, and there are more 717s and 319s available if needed out there. Pax prefer them anyway, and you can easily replace a few RJ flights with a 717/319. Have you seen the replacement that has already occurred? The 717s go to places like EVV and LFT, while the 319 goes to ROA and CRW. That's a good thing.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Luckily I have 99 problems but Endeavor ain't one.

 

[atpcliff]

Just talked to DAL guy. He said they r hiring more than they need, as they want to get as many regional guys as they can, because they know the pilot shortage will worsen and they will have advantage over aa/ual as DAL will have taken guys early that would have gone to aa/ual later....and they are hoping most will stay, vs leaving for aa/ual later. He didn't say if DAL was concerned about losing his to overseas hiring.

At atlas we r starting to have problems as a result of the pilot shortage.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

I have a feeling DL will bring more flying inhouse. DL has no problem attracting new pilots, and there are more 717s and 319s available if needed out there. Pax prefer them anyway, and you can easily replace a few RJ flights with a 717/319. Have you seen the replacement that has already occurred? The 717s go to places like EVV and LFT, while the 319 goes to ROA and CRW. That's a good thing.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Uh oh, you better dust off those LBB charts and get that crow in the oven.

 

[bafanguy]

Just talked to DAL guy. ...and they are hoping most will stay, vs leaving for aa/ual later. He didn't say if DAL was concerned about losing his to overseas hiring.

Interesting. Was the DL guy you spoke with a line pilot or someone connected enough to the HR process to actually speak with some authority about management intentions/decisions ?

And, why would anyone get on with DL only to leave for UAL/AA ?

Why would anyone leave DL (or any US legacy considering the number of mandatory retirements they all have...and the career advancement that offers) to enter the expat world ?

[not trying to pick a fight...just asking questions about what the guy told you]

 

[sinkrate]

Interesting. Was the DL guy you spoke with a line pilot or someone connected enough to the HR process to actually speak with some authority about management intentions/decisions ?

And, why would anyone get on with DL only to leave for UAL/AA ?

Why would anyone leave DL (or any US legacy considering the number of mandatory retirements they all have...and the career advancement that offers) to enter the expat world ?

[not trying to pick a fight...just asking questions about what the guy told you]

The problem is staffing the regional's, not Delta. In a few months, if not already, Endeavor will be losing more pilots to other carriers than they are to Delta. Delta thought this EtD program and the SSP program would slow that down. It hasn't. The EtD program has been a spectacular failure. By the start of next summers flying season Endeavor will not be able to staff the large RJ's Delta has committed to them, much less the smaller 50 seaters. So the problem is 'what will Delta do about it's two largest regional feeders imploding?' Will they try to actually make Endeavor work? By all appearances that is their desire now - but so far their management team has failed spectacularly at that. Will they abandon Endeavor and sell them to Go Jets or Mesa? Possibly - but that would be a complete change in their current thinking. Will they bring part of the large RJ flying 'in house' and put those AC on the Delta seniority list? Doubtful. That would set up a number of problems versus their other contract carriers. It would also import Endeavors recruiting problems into Delta. If a pilot has the choice of going to United and starting in a 73 versus going to Delta and starting in an RJ which is he going to choose?

It appears senior Delta management is still hanging on to their belief that the regional feed market is still a buyers market with an unlimited supply of pilots. They very well may be painting themselves into a corner.

 

[General Lee]

Interesting. Was the DL guy you spoke with a line pilot or someone connected enough to the HR process to actually speak with some authority about management intentions/decisions ?

And, why would anyone get on with DL only to leave for UAL/AA ?

Why would anyone leave DL (or any US legacy considering the number of mandatory retirements they all have...and the career advancement that offers) to enter the expat world ?

[not trying to pick a fight...just asking questions about what the guy told you]

The only guys I see leaving the US for expat jobs in the next 10 years are disgruntled Regional pilots who can't get on with a US legacy. They will pass the multitude of current Expats over there fleeing to come back to the States. Need proof? Read PPRUNE in the ME section. Turns out everything ain't great over there, even with huge growth. They can try to make Dubai look like South Beach, but in reality, it just isn't. China airlines may pay great Expat wages, but locals don't get the same and resent the incoming pilots. Not great CRM. Add the language barrier and pollution, and you and your family may have a bad experience.

I see a bit more consolidation (LCCs mainly) and 4 or 5 big carriers in the US, with a few Regionals hanging on as most hireable pilots leave. Unless there are scholarship opportunities paid for by the Legacies, I don't see many paying that much money for ratings or aviation college that results in a Regional job after 1500 hours.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[SoberIrishman]

Or, how about spreading some of those massive legacy carrier profits so the regionals that remain can make a bit more, and therefore attract new hires with decent pay and conditions?

 

[PCL_128]

Or, how about spreading some of those massive legacy carrier profits so the regionals that remain can make a bit more, and therefore attract new hires with decent pay and conditions?

Why? They've already determined that doing so isn't financially beneficial to them. With scope restricted where it is today, paying regional pilots what it would take to attract qualified new hires would just drive seat mile costs too high. Better to just put more 717s, A319s, etc. at mainline. At least at current oil prices.

 

[Carl_Spackler]

Why? They've already determined that doing so isn't financially beneficial to them. With scope restricted where it is today, paying regional pilots what it would take to attract qualified new hires would just drive seat mile costs too high. Better to just put more 717s, A319s, etc. at mainline. At least at current oil prices.

Because Delta operates on the principals of integrity and mutual respect?

 

[PCL_128]

Because Delta operates on the principals of integrity and mutual respect?

Thanks. It's rare that I get such a good laugh from Flightinfo.

 

[SoberIrishman]

I would say that is not totally accurate. The cost would be minimal if the market analysis is properly done. Sure there will have to be less 50 seaters, but you cannot serve all markets with large aircraft. A balance has to be struck.

 

[PCL_128]

They would love to serve some markets with smaller airplanes; just as long as they don't have to pay much for them. As soon as they have to start paying fair wages, it's no longer economical. The seat mile costs are just too high.

 

[jynxyjericho]

I would say that is not totally accurate. The cost would be minimal if the market analysis is properly done. Sure there will have to be less 50 seaters, but you cannot serve all markets with large aircraft. A balance has to be struck.

The balance won't be struck with 50 seat RJs. 402s maybe.

 

[General Lee]

Or, how about spreading some of those massive legacy carrier profits so the regionals that remain can make a bit more, and therefore attract new hires with decent pay and conditions?

So mainline can continue to support unprofitable flying via RJs? Nah. As PCL stated, let's instead buy more 717s or 319s and replace RJs with jobs that pay more with better benefits. The only people who don't want that are lifers at the Regionals. Unfortunately for them, they have many things stacked against them, including high gas prices (inefficiencies especially with 50 seaters), fewer pilot starts due to sour economy and high prices, new hiring rules (1500 hours or 800 via Riddle), and 15,000 pilots needed by the 3 legacies alone in the next 10 years. It ain't looking good for Regionals or lifers there. I'd be looking around for alternate employement and realize that the sooner you get on with a growing airline or one with huge retirement numbers coming, the sooner you will regain those weekends off and multiple weeks of vacation per year

Eventually I bet the legacies will hire directly from special schools that select candidates and run them through 2-3 years worth of training to get them into the right seat of an Airbus or Boeing. They will have 1500 hours, but tied in with the schools.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Gr82Aviate]

They would love to serve some markets with smaller airplanes; just as long as they don't have to pay much for them. As soon as they have to start paying fair wages, it's no longer economical. The seat mile costs are just too high.

Crew costs are a small percentage of the total operating cost of any regional jet. Pay and benefits could easily be increased with only a marginal increase in the total operating cost. Those few extra dollars would be a lot less than the hundreds of millions they would lose, if they lost the current level of feed from those underpaid regionals! How does management get everyone to buy into their constant claims of "poverty", even when they're pulling in record billion dollar plus quarterly profits?uke:

 

[titans10]

Crew costs are a small percentage of the total operating cost of any regional jet. Pay and benefits could easily be increased with only a marginal increase in the total operating cost. Those few extra dollars would be a lot less than the hundreds of millions they would lose, if they lost the current level of feed from those underpaid regionals! How does management get everyone to buy into their constant claims of "poverty", even when they're pulling in record billion dollar plus quarterly profits?uke:

What regional is making record profit? Regional pilots are paid by there company.

 

[SoberIrishman]

Certain regional routes may be considered unprofitable, however maybe 50% of the passengers on a particular flight might be connecting transoceanic.
Take those seats away, and your profits with them?
Not many of our passengers are solely travelling on our carrier to their final destination. Most connect, and many are high dollar routes.
Pay can certainly be raised at the regional level.

 

[General Lee]

Certain regional routes may be considered unprofitable, however maybe 50% of the passengers on a particular flight might be connecting transoceanic.
Take those seats away, and your profits with them?
Not many of our passengers are solely travelling on our carrier to their final destination. Most connect, and many are high dollar routes.
Pay can certainly be raised at the regional level.

Instead of 6 daily RJs, you can replace those with 3 daily 717s and keep those connecting pax, while not worrying about filling new hire pilot classes. Problem solved.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[XPOO]

Instead of 6 daily RJs, you can replace those with 3 daily 717s and keep those connecting pax, while not worrying about filling new hire pilot classes. Problem solved.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Sweet, three choices of flights, only one that makes a connection to Tokyo and involves a 7 hour layover. Everyone's reliving the 80s with their hair styles and clothing, why not get the full effect and bring back the 80s airline service as well.

If only the New York subway would realize that one car that can hold 1,000,000 people travelling the lines three times a day would be so much easier for the people than a car that runs every few minutes.

 

[SoberIrishman]

No General...... That won't work and you know it. The competition will not allow it. You just want to keep stirring up emotions of regional airline employees who work so hard to make you money.
I once thought you might have some intelligence. I must admit I was wrong.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

 

[gojo]

Instead of 6 daily RJs, you can replace those with 3 daily 717s and keep those connecting pax, while not worrying about filling new hire pilot classes. Problem solved.


Bye Bye---General Lee

I'm, that might work, but Delta doesn't have an endless supply of 717s

 

[jynxyjericho]

if they lost the current level of feed from those underpaid regionals!

They won't lose the feed silly, they will trade freq for bigger mainline jets. Plus, they will need those pilots at mainline gigs over the next 10 years.

Sweet, three choices of flights, only one that makes a connection to Tokyo and involves a 7 hour layover. Everyone's reliving the 80s with their hair styles and clothing, why not get the full effect and bring back the 80s airline service as well.

If only the New York subway would realize that one car that can hold 1,000,000 people travelling the lines three times a day would be so much easier for the people than a car that runs every few minutes.

Some mainline companies are gearing themselves up for that direction even if you think it is silly. Everyone thought losing the 1980s level of service would effect the bottom line, it absolutely did not. Delta, for instance, had some analysis done and feel confident they can risk the change in freq. Worst case, they go back to what they are doing now and shrink their margins. Right now they are as confident, as anyone can be in the real world, that they can control more flying and increase margins by bringing most of it in house (minus the 70 seater market).

I'm, that might work, but Delta doesn't have an endless supply of 717s

Good thing they don't need an endless supply then hu? Leave a couple hundred 700/900s in the network and push the rest to mainline.

 

[General Lee]

I'm, that might work, but Delta doesn't have an endless supply of 717s

Uhhhhh, 319s work too. In fact a bunch are coming back into service soon from "charter" work (more on that later), and there are plenty out there to be had. Blue1 of Finland btw is looking to dump their 717s right now, so there is the first bunch to possibly be had.


Bye Bye---General Lee