Emirates places order for 50 Boeing 777-300 ERs with options for 20 777-300 ERs

[Kalifornia]

You do realize a first year EK pilot outearns every single major FO in America, right? When you look at the tax-free package and housing + benefits included. It isn't shiny jet syndrome. It's $$$$ and the fact that many people are finally just fed up with the aviation landscape here in the US. Your post history proves you don't get out much. I have a hard time believing you've been anywhere outside the USA, save for Canada or Mexico for spring break.

Well gee whiz, there's nothing getting by you junior detective. Your powers surely could be used for the force of good. You got my entire bio covered right there. I couldn't tell you the Great Wall from the Berlin Wall....I think one's in Ukraine which is in South America or something like that??? Them Southwest pilots couldn't either, Texas cowboys. Dang it gall darn it all, punk dumb 737 pilots. Canada, I thought that spoke English over there like we're suppose to in 'America, but then WTF, I go to Quebec and they are all talking like a French waiter.?. Then someones like, dude, you don't need a passport to go to Puerto Rico, and I go there and they're like speaking Mexican, WTF over??

 

[Flyer1015]

In regards to the airline pilot profession, absolutely - Tempered enthusiasm leads to sounder judgement. It also helps to create a real pilot shortage versus promoting this career as still the best part time job you can have or other kick yourself mindsets. The funny thing is Emirates could pay out more to the pilots and even offer out of Middle East basing and safety nets but regional Joe from Nickelback Airlines is already kicking back in the recliner at the compound because it is way better than the race to the bottom regional carrier they left::They burn the bridge to a better deal by over promoting the one at hand

Huh?! ANY RJ pilot, be it a FO or a Captain, will get a huge pay increase by going to EK. YOUR argument works against you, because what you are saying applies to EVERY single RJ pilot in the US. All of them take a paycut to go to ANY major/legacy airline as first year FO. Highest pay being $56 at Delta. Aren't these pilots kicking back at the recliner in their crashpad because it is way better tahn the race to the bottom regional carrier they just left? Look at yourselves in the mirror before talking crap like that. A move to EK for any regional pilot, FO or CA, entails a significant pay increase, and certainly no race to the bottom. You wanna talk race to the bottom? Talk about those Continental first year 737 and 757/767 pilots getting 29.97/hr for first year with NO medical benefits for 6 months! That's the real race to the bottom.

It's an insult to compare FO pay at any legacy carrier here to EK. The EK package is far superior. Why should any 50 seater pilot, CA or FO, have to take a paycut to fly at a legacy carrier? That race to the bottom has already happened. Blame 9/11, greedy + incompetent management, economic recession, a pus$y ALPA union, and whatever else you like to help you sleep at night.

 

[Kalifornia]

Huh?! ANY RJ pilot, be it a FO or a Captain, will get a huge pay increase by going to EK. YOUR argument works against you, because what you are saying applies to EVERY single RJ pilot in the US. All of them take a paycut to go to ANY major/legacy airline as first year FO. Highest pay being $56 at Delta. Aren't these pilots kicking back at the recliner in their crashpad because it is way better tahn the race to the bottom regional carrier they just left? Look at yourselves in the mirror before talking crap like that. A move to EK for any regional pilot, FO or CA, entails a significant pay increase, and certainly no race to the bottom. You wanna talk race to the bottom? Talk about those Continental first year 737 and 757/767 pilots getting 29.97/hr for first year with NO medical benefits for 6 months! That's the real race to the bottom.

It's an insult to compare FO pay at any legacy carrier here to EK. The EK package is far superior. Why should any 50 seater pilot, CA or FO, have to take a paycut to fly at a legacy carrier? That race to the bottom has already happened. Blame 9/11, greedy + incompetent management, economic recession, a pus$y ALPA union, and whatever else you like to help you sleep at night.

Whoa, sorry to get you emotional all about it. Funny, how that works, the USA plays world cop and spend trillions in military to try and stabilze it and the Middle East Kingdoms thank us by making certain places their oil money playgrounds. Freedoms such as unions be damned.

But I do you credit, you are right, the pay and benefits at the US carriers has been bad, real bad and yes, mostly for the results listed. Think they should improve across the board, but again if a foreign carrier is rolling in dough growing with massive jets from their oil money, they certainly can afford to offer an even better package to make that sacrifice. I wouldn't over promote it to justify them offering less because it's so much better than the current US situation........... Don't sell yourself short. Air Canada $240 an hour 12 year Captain 777 and you can live in Toronto {not as warm as Dubai, brrrrr} and have union protection. Or UPS, or Fedex, or Southwest or Gulfstream Aviation. Ok, I made that last one up

I still find it funny that someone thinks they have every one figured out based on what is or isn't in a profile. Not to going lay out my life story, that's not even on Facebook. Like I have never left the North America continent and have no clue there's a nightly knock off market just off Nathan Street in Hong Kong, Kowloon I believe and the old airport was a crazy approach. Or that Tanzania requires a Yellow Fever Immunization for entry. Or that you'd be nuts to rent a car and drive within the city of Rome, Italy.

 

[Varmint]

Whoa, sorry to get you emotional all about it. Funny, how that works, the USA plays world cop and spend trillions in military to try and stabilze it and the Middle East Kingdoms thank us by making certain places their oil money playgrounds. Freedoms such as unions be damned.

What would happen to US oil supplies and the US economy if the M.E. destabilized and the US was not able to purchase oil anymore from the region?

The USA playing middle-east cop is for self-serving economic needs not because the government is all warm and fuzzy on helping people.

 

[Flyer1015]

Whoa, sorry to get you emotional all about it. Funny, how that works, the USA plays world cop and spend trillions in military to try and stabilze it and the Middle East Kingdoms thank us by making certain places their oil money playgrounds. Freedoms such as unions be damned.

But I do you credit, you are right, the pay and benefits at the US carriers has been bad, real bad and yes, mostly for the results listed. Think they should improve across the board, but again if a foreign carrier is rolling in dough growing with massive jets from their oil money, they certainly can afford to offer an even better package to make that sacrifice. I wouldn't over promote it to justify them offering less because it's so much better than the current US situation........... Don't sell yourself short. Air Canada $240 an hour 12 year Captain 777 and you can live in Toronto {not as warm as Dubai, brrrrr} and have union protection. Or UPS, or Fedex, or Southwest or Gulfstream Aviation. Ok, I made that last one up

I still find it funny that someone thinks they have every one figured out based on what is or isn't in a profile. Not to going lay out my life story, that's not even on Facebook. Like I have never left the North America continent and have no clue there's a nightly knock off market just off Nathan Street in Hong Kong, Kowloon I believe and the old airport was a crazy approach. Or that Tanzania requires a Yellow Fever Immunization for entry. Or that you'd be nuts to rent a car and drive within the city of Rome, Italy.

You sound experienced from travel overseas, and been in this industry a while. But if that's the case, then you cannot just throw out a wage ($240/hr) for a 777 Captain at Air Canada, and say that is good pay! First of all, Canadian taxes are even worse than American taxes. General Sales Tax and Provincial Sales Tax, GST and PST. Depending on where you are, it amounts to nearly 15% sales tax on goods you buy. Not to mention, they have a national health care system, and everyone pays into it. Property taxes, school taxes, etc etc. It ALL adds up big time. The point being that UAE salaries are not taxed, and what you make, you get to keep. So if one makes $140k USD in Dubai, it's an "equivalent" of making at least $200,000 here in the US. Taxes are a big part of that equation, and Canadian taxes are even worse. So, you can't really compare a 12th year 777 Captain at Air Canada and say he makes "more" than a 12th year 777 Captain at Emirates. You have to look at the overall package, not just the hourly rate. Sure, your hourly rate may be lower, but it is so because your house is included free.

 

[Flyer1015]

What would happen to US oil supplies and the US economy if the M.E. destabilized and the US was not able to purchase oil anymore from the region?

The USA playing middle-east cop is for self-serving economic needs not because the government is all warm and fuzzy on helping people.

True!

 

[Green]

I bet a first year EK FO who took the housing allowance option last year ended up with nearly as much in his pocket as a 12 year Air Canada 777 CA after taxes. Add up the basic, provident, flight pay, per diem, housing allowance, school allowances, profit share(18k last year) and then calculate the tax implications. You will get a big number. But Dubai is expensive!

You sound experienced from travel overseas, and been in this industry a while. But if that's the case, then you cannot just throw out a wage ($240/hr) for a 777 Captain at Air Canada, and say that is good pay! First of all, Canadian taxes are even worse than American taxes. General Sales Tax and Provincial Sales Tax, GST and PST. Depending on where you are, it amounts to nearly 15% sales tax on goods you buy. Not to mention, they have a national health care system, and everyone pays into it. Property taxes, school taxes, etc etc. It ALL adds up big time. The point being that UAE salaries are not taxed, and what you make, you get to keep. So if one makes $140k USD in Dubai, it's an "equivalent" of making at least $200,000 here in the US. Taxes are a big part of that equation, and Canadian taxes are even worse. So, you can't really compare a 12th year 777 Captain at Air Canada and say he makes "more" than a 12th year 777 Captain at Emirates. You have to look at the overall package, not just the hourly rate. Sure, your hourly rate may be lower, but it is so because your house is included free.

 

[johnsonrod]

Meanwhile, in the USA, American declares bankruptcy. CEO bails out the night before bankruptcy with his golden parachute. Pilots will have their pension terminated. Their CBA could be tossed like garbage by a BK judge, but most likely, they will have many concessions and pay cuts shoved down their throats. Scope will be eroded further to outsource 70-90 seaters to regionals other than Eagle. Management will award (bonus) to their executive management, and then they will emerge out of bankruptcy as a "new, lower cost" airline.

Seriously........ THAT is the reality of airlines in the US today. The last place anyone should rip on is Emirates. The pay/compensation package is good, the checks clear, and they've always made money. Who's more likely to be around for the next 50 years. American, Delta, United, US Air, or Emirates, Qatar, Etihad? I'd put my money on a Middle Eastern airline any day.


The airline pilot profession in the United States is dead.

I have friends at Delta, Fedex and Southwest who are quite happy and they are making pretty good money (especially the Fedex pilots). Not sure the situation is as dire as you portray it.

 

[Freight Dog]

I have friends at Delta, Fedex and Southwest who are quite happy and they are making pretty good money (especially the Fedex pilots). Not sure the situation is as dire as you portray it.

Those pilot groups represent what percentage of the total US airline population?

 

[pookie]

I have a friend who is head of Facebook and he is doing really well also. Recession, what recession?

 

[Flyer1015]

I have friends at Delta, Fedex and Southwest who are quite happy and they are making pretty good money (especially the Fedex pilots). Not sure the situation is as dire as you portray it.

Asides Delta, Fedex and Southwest are ahead ONLY because of events after 9/11. Keep in mind before 9/11, in the 80s and 90s, only a reject went to Fedex or Southwest, those that couldn't make the cut at the higher paying legacies. Especially Southwest!

 

[SonicPig]

As you can see I don't live on these boards, 2 or 3 weeks between checking. I also didn't bother to read all the posts, sorry.
I will say this, you guys defending EK seem to have the shiny jet syndrome. It's an OK job, but fully 1/2 the guys I fly with are looking to get out. The main reason being living in the ME.
I mean, it could be worse, but it's not good. Humans can get used to anything after a length of time. Guys make their peace with prison after a while. I have found myself thinking; this doesn't suck so bad, and that is SCARY!

To you folks reading these guys posting, a lot of these guys came from the RJ world and are now on a widebody and may make captain in 4 or 5 years. Their only option (if they want to come home)is to come back to narrow-body newhire FO. It's called Golden Handcuffs, they have have to make this sound like a great gig and denigrate you to justify their place in life at this time.


With that being said, I'm not defending ALPA and or unions. Just stating an opinion.

The line pilots are a good group of guys. If they would ever consider out basing, ie., the USA, I would stay.
Life is to short to live it in the sandbox for a flying job. Just looking to finish the contract.

The Pig.

 

[Varmint]

To you folks reading these guys posting, a lot of these guys came from the RJ world and are now on a widebody and may make captain in 4 or 5 years. Their only option (if they want to come home)is to come back to narrow-body newhire FO. It's called Golden Handcuffs, they have have to make this sound like a great gig and denigrate you to justify their place in life at this time.


With that being said, I'm not defending ALPA and or unions. Just stating an opinion.

The line pilots are a good group of guys. If they would ever consider out basing, ie., the USA, I would stay.
Life is to short to live it in the sandbox for a flying job. Just looking to finish the contract.

The Pig.

Plenty of other options at contract gigs around the world if you want to remain in the Left seat but not in the middle east. The ANA commuting contract being one of the best out there. Hope you make it back and free yourself of the golden handcuff's.

 

[SonicPig]

Plenty of other options at contract gigs around the world if you want to remain in the Left seat but not in the middle east. The ANA commuting contract being one of the best out there. Hope you make it back and free yourself of the golden handcuff's.

Stayed out to late last night, to many cold ones (Trader Joe's).
Reading the post today, I came off as an a^^hole. I do apologize for that. I'm not miserable over here, I just don't understand why some folks defend EK like an SWA guy would defend their airline, that's all.

It their airline!! (Emirates/Locals/Arabs/The Royal family). We have have no stake in the long run. I do my job as required by OMA, but that's it.


Now that I'm not throwing flames, how about a semi formal poll?

Simple questions.

How long do you plan to stay?

Do you have an exit plan?

If you make Capt (receive command) will you come back to Estados Unidos?

The last one is a serious life question if your early 30's and looking at Captain. That's what I really meant by golden handcuffs. Can you afford to come home? Better question, WILL you make the decision to come home and bite the monetary bullet? Is the money worth it?

I think age has something to do with the answer. Seems older guys want out and younger guys want the left seat. I could be wrong, let me know.
I respect anyone's decision.


At a certain point in life money doesn't matter. I'm in the gray zone, torn between two competing forces.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Is there anything worth going back to? even SWA is being hit by the "high employee cost" management playbook lately, I understand being tired of the sand pit but I would be inclined to look for another option rather than flying for what the legacies are paying to new hires these days, some EK captains have left but how many went back to the US and how many went for other opportunities abroad, just curious[/FONT]

 

[Varmint]

Stayed out to late last night, to many cold ones (Trader Joe's).
Reading the post today, I came off as an a^^hole. I do apologize for that. I'm not miserable over here, I just don't understand why some folks defend EK like an SWA guy would defend their airline, that's all.

I defend EK because I actually have pride in the product....Something I never had when flying for the regionals in the US. If the American public ever decides to try EK's product (rather than being scared of a middle eastern airline and running the opposite direction), some will never go back to flying a US carrier internationally. The level of service is well above that offered in the US where they nickle and dime you to death with bag fees, headset fees, wanna buy a sandwich onboard....etc etc.

Simple questions.

How long do you plan to stay? Until something better comes along

Do you have an exit plan? Yes ready to go now if I have to.

If you make Capt (receive command) will you come back to Estados Unidos?

Depends...I will look at the contract gigs but I will DEFINITELY not come back for a job making $35/hr for the first year only to sit on reserve for 2 years and then have to fly as an FO for 10 years on some ratted out old plane flying 4 legs or more per day. I like my one leg a day now.

The last one is a serious life question if your early 30's and looking at Captain. That's what I really meant by golden handcuffs. Can you afford to come home? Better question, WILL you make the decision to come home and bite the monetary bullet? Is the money worth it?

I have no debt left anywhere, money in the bank, and a nice retirement account.....I can come home anytime but I don't want to. I enjoy the adventure and the lifestyle of being an ex-pat. Visiting the US for 6 weeks per year plus trips is plenty for me. I am 40 though so that may be the diff.

I think age has something to do with the answer. Seems older guys want out and younger guys want the left seat. I could be wrong, let me know.
I respect anyone's decision.
At a certain point in life money doesn't matter. I'm in the gray zone, torn between two competing forces.

I have my moments in the grey zone as well....but when I think about the travelling, the lifestyle, the vacation time, and all the other perks they far outweigh the few dicks in the training dept and those you may have to fly with. I can understand the want to go home but I just keep asking myself is it just "the grass is greener on the other side" syndrome and there will be about the same amount of negative issues back home as well. Who knows.

 

[Kalifornia]

This is exactly the kind of a discussion I was looking for, not that I induced it in a pleasant way. I just see it as there is a small amount of the total pilot work force that will end up being satisfied working out of Dubai indefinitely. Simple freedoms such as voting, worker rights, or openly enjoying a modern western lifestyle are big and so is family/friends. Working out of Europe is a lot closer to home than working out of the Middle East. And that's why it excites the least to see Emirates as the one carrier looking at massive plane orders versus any legacy European, Canadian, or US carrier. The price they pay to get pilots to fly out of there should be a huge premium.

 

[Gear Disagree]

Sorry West Coaster... there are really not many people who you will find who are ready to leave. It is not a small amount of people who are planning on staying, it is the majority. It is a good job, a good retirement, a good route network, a good employee group, a great paycheck, a decent place to live, and a good place to make a home away from home.

Ditch the preconceived notions you have of Dubai and just take it for what it is. One of the best places to live outside the US while enjoying a life that you could never have while living inside the US. This applies to both work life and life at home.

Some negatives? Yes. There are many more positives though.

Let it go dude..... Don't come if you don't agree with our life out here.

 

[Kalifornia]

Sorry West Coaster... there are really not many people who you will find who are ready to leave. It is not a small amount of people who are planning on staying, it is the majority. It is a good job, a good retirement, a good route network, a good employee group, a great paycheck, a decent place to live, and a good place to make a home away from home.

Ditch the preconceived notions you have of Dubai and just take it for what it is. One of the best places to live outside the US while enjoying a life that you could never have while living inside the US. This applies to both work life and life at home.

Some negatives? Yes. There are many more positives though.

Let it go dude..... Don't come if you don't agree with our life out here.

Will the pay ever rise, will the work rules ever improve, will a more open safety culture not enforced on fire first fear only prevail, not likely if this is all it takes to give up on the free world. This is the primary concern: even when the major carriers pre 9-11 had awesome contracts, you wouldn't find many pilots at those carriers selling the career or that particular airline as a bed of roses. But now I see a generation of new pilots who go to some crappy regional carrier, and everything else in comparison seems awesome without serious consideration to all angles. If life revolves around shopping designer clothes at fashion malls, and a bubble of certain other luxuries, then you could call Dubai a good life. A better life would be obtaining a much higher premium of pay to live in the desert and have the chance to save and retire much earlier or leave with more than enough money to freely do whatever. This may be accomplished by not selling it as roses for the benefit of present ego at the expense of a better deal.

 

[Flyer1015]

I was searching 'Expats in Dubai' on google and a search hit came on this blog:

http://gubbiofarabia.tumblr.com/

A young woman from Nashville, TN who has lived in Dubai 5 years now, and apparently loves it very much. Very informative posts on Dubai:

http://gubbiofarabia.tumblr.com/tagged/dubai

Her idea of vacation includes going to places like Iraq, Afghanistan, and Nigeria, so she clearly stands out from the typical American woman crowd.