Don't Become An Airline Pilot

[N6069L]

Good place to promote cheap labor!

Pilotyip,

First off thank you for serving our country, but what you are doing here is outrageous. I do feel very bad that you have had more downs in your aviation career as compared to others, but that does not give you the right to promote disturbingly low salaries. You have come to understand that Aviation Sells DREAMS and you are exploiting it. You realize that young pilots who are just graduating college and or flight school, and for that matter even our fellow military personnel will do anything to fly an airplane, because ultimately the high end salaries will come. It is not fair that you, at your age, and your experience are an active participant on flightinfo, simply because this is the place to promote your sick airline management schemes because here you still find virgin pilots who have not been through what so many of us have been. You have been given a management position and are continuing to promote the degradation of our profession. I have been told by a chief pilot once, after I complained of continuous extensions into my days off and that I am literally out of clean clothes, that "tonight when I get to the hotel, I can wash my under ware in the sink and hang dry them over an a/c unit so that I have something clean to wear." (please don't use this line when you justify extending people into their days off, as you will only create an unsafe flying situation!) FOR CRYING OUT LOUD PEOPLE WAKE UP YOU ARE PILOTS, WITH A LOT OF RESPONSIBILITY!! Don't let these foolish management people exploit you any longer! Start reading the ALPA website as this is where we can begin to make changes. (I do know that there are problems there too, but it's a start)

 

[pilotyip]

I have been living mty childhood dream

Pilotyip,

It is not fair that you, at your age, and your experience are an active participant on flightinfo, simply because this is the place to promote your sick airline management schemes because here you still find virgin pilots who have not been through what so many of us have been. You have been given a management position and are continuing to promote the degradation of our profession.

Sorry you feel that way, I should be banned because I love what I do, and I want to share this with someone who may also have a dream? USA Jet is a bottom feeder, old airplanes, low pay, but it is a fantastic place to start a career. I am extremely proud of the list of airlines our pilots have gone to after leaving USA Jet. FedEx, UPS, DAL, etc and recently NJ in large numbers. You have to start pay your dues and start someplace we are only one stop in a career. BTW How is the Dir of DA-20 stds, considered management?

 

[AirCobra]

I totally have to disagree with N6069L. USA Jet is actually a great example of someone doing it right. Why can't a large regional offer things like a starting salary in the high 30's to low 40's, educational benefits, moving money, and paid expenses while in training. Pinnacle just started paying for hotel while in training last year. There are plenty of airlines that only pay per diem until you get out of IOE, I know I worked for one.

If USA Jet can offer all this with a tiny fleet of planes why can't a large unionized regional owned by a major airline do the same thing. Answer is they have a any number of people willing to work for almost nothing in the hopes they get a job at a major that may never happen.

 

[BOYCAPTAIN]

The bottom line is that since 911 there are more crappy jobs in aviation than there are good ones....pilots are avoiding going to the majors which was unheard of....hopefully things turn around and more positive experiences are shared on this website...now back to my 75hr layover at the lovely mission palms hotel in tempe

 

[Publishers]

The pilot career has such a unique set of complex issues, it is hard to discuss it in brief segments on a website. There really not many cases where there is a clear career path with any individual company. To rise to the top of whatever segment you pursue, requires a process rather than a procedure. On the other hand, if you have a burning desire to be a dental techician, you pretty much have determined what the pay range of your life is to be. You might get a few more bucks if you are in NY versus Indiannapolis but this is what comes with the job. While it is easy to pick on the companies and ask why they do this and that, it is just as much the result of how pilot careers operate and what makes sense that result in what the pay and benefit structure is. I have had to let pilots go when an aircraft has been sold and we have no other place for them, and, just as often, pilots have been typed and seen a bigger opportunity elsewhere and left us dead in the water for a bigger, quicker, shinier, x plane. We can whine about all the responsibility but I can point to many other jobs where the pay is not commensurate with the duties. Is a pilot career the only one that the people starting out get the crummy assignments and the lousy hours, and have to pay their dues. Ask some doctors about internship and how that goes. Ask the rookie cop about the hours he gets and the neighborhood he gets assigned to. In 1983 I decided to try and find something to do in aviation which had been sort of a quasi hobby until then. I left a COO job with great pay, great benefits, a flight department, etcc. I have never again made the money or benefits of that job. I have however been able to see the world, meet some great people, and do some things that have been really challenging. It is what you want that is what you get but it always has a cost.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

The only thing that has changed for the worse in the pilot profession is that the top airline jobs don't pay what they once did, or if they do, there are very few of those jobs. But on the other hand there are many more (times 10 or more) non-airline pilot positions than ever before and they pay about the same as they have always paid or maybe even more and with much better equipment to fly. There are now probably 10 times more Regional jobs than there were 20 years ago and most of these are flying turbojets. Corporate jobs are 10 times more and these too are flying jets. The pay at the Regionals is OK for a starter job (like being a CFI) and progresses to 80K or so. The corporations pay 65K to 120K and that's not too bad it seems to me.

As in any career a salaried person is just a worker, and if you wear a uniform you are a blue collar worker by definition (see Webster’s). Almost no one in any profession who is a worker earns big bucks. The salaries at the majors for the past 40 years have been an anomaly of a weight X speed pay formula that was finally crushed by a management that always hated pilots and flight attendants (they still do).

Workers such as airline pilots and flight attendants are the assembly line workers of aviation, doing the same thing over and over and getting paid.

The only way to make real money in the aviation business is to provide a unique service or to have others work for you. Now that's the trick, to use your head and your courage to go out on your own to find this nitch.

In the mean time, I really think aviation is a good career choice and I have recommended it to my children, including my 17-year old who just got his Private Pilot certificate on his birthday.

As a final thought, 20 years ago it was only about 15% of the typical aviation class of pilots from an aviation college that ended up with airline pilot or any kind of pilot jobs, but now I would guess that that number is probably 80% with the other 20% just deciding to do something else. They could have gotten pilot jobs if they wanted them but they just chose to do something else.

So is this a good or a bad time to be in aviation? You decide for yourself. Personally, I think it's a great time: With a world wide pilot shortage upon us, more and more jets being built and fewer and fewer pilots being trained. Just look at the student starts and the number of flight tests being given. How are they going to find pilots for all those jets, from the hundreds of VLJ's to the new 787's?

Soon, a pilot may be in the middle of his/her very own acre of diamonds.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

The only way to make real money in the aviation business is to provide a unique service or to have others work for you.

It was once remarked to me, that if you wanted to make a small fortune in aviation, you'd have better start with a large one.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

The bottom line is that since 911 there are more crappy jobs in aviation than there are good ones....pilots are avoiding going to the majors which was unheard of....hopefully things turn around and more positive experiences are shared on this website...now back to my 75hr layover at the lovely mission palms hotel in tempe

That's a lotta luvin' you got there in yer avatar...more cushion for the pushin?!?! imp:

 

[Snapshot]

You obviously, are not a pilot for a major air carrier

You have very little grasp of the obvious. Lot of regionals out there that operate Boeing and MD's?

Ultimately, when you do take your major pay cut to come to a major ...

Ever been furloughed? I'd bet I know more about major pay cuts than you do.

ILLIGAL IMMIGRANTS

I AM POOR AND IN DEBT DUE TO THE LOW SALARIES.

I know how frustrating and hopeless things can seem taking a huge pay cut and have to take some huge backwards steps in your career. (By the way, your first year Major pay cut is NOT a backward step.) Suck it up and deal with it. Wailing to all within earshot about how unfair it is and blaming your problems on others may be comforting but you're just spinning your wheels. It has reached the point where you actually accuse me of being a scab out of thin air. I mean really! You've let your despair make you irrational. You are a victim for certain. A victim of yourself. Self Pity and denial are getting you nowhere. Do us, and especially yourself, a favor. Instead of coming here to regale us with tales of the 80K Scuba Diving Pauper, use the time to get your house in order.

I make over $80,000 a year as a Corporate Pilot in the Northeast. A similar house to the last one I had which I paid $225,000 is $650,000 so I had to downsize.

This guy understands living within your means. I'd bet he doesn't spend $50 a week on coffee, doesn't have some ridiculous $300 Williams-Sanoma frying pan, didn't finance his home with a zero-down arm, etc.....

 

[pilotyip]

In the mean time, I really think aviation is a good career choice and I have recommended it to my children, including my 17-year old who just got his Private Pilot certificate on his birthday. So is this a good or a bad time to be in aviation? You decide for yourself. Personally, I think it's a great time: With a world wide pilot shortage upon us, more and more jets being built and fewer and fewer pilots being trained. Just look at the student starts and the number of flight tests being given. How are they going to find pilots for all those jets, from the hundreds of VLJ's to the new 787's?

Soon, a pilot may be in the middle of his/her very own acre of diamonds.

Nice touch; a little sunshine in a sea of gloom. You must still think it is a good place to have a career. I signed my son off for his private at 17, he is doing well, soloed my grandson at 16, he wants to fly for a living. Sounds like you are going to keep it in the family also. Good for you. Very few are lucky enought to make living doing something they like.

 

[BOYCAPTAIN]

Nice touch; a little sunshine in a sea of gloom. You must still think it is a good place to have a career. I signed my son off for his private at 17, he is doing well, soloed my grandson at 16, he wants to fly for a living. Sounds like you are going to keep it in the family also. Good for you. Very few are lucky enought to make living doing something they like.

sunshine? i always spread sunshine! i had 4 weeks off which i spent in FL followed by a trip to PHX for a 72hr layover and now back home for another 3 weeks off....how much sunshine do you want???????????????????????

 

[pilotyip]

Lots of sunshine

sunshine? i always spread sunshine! i had 4 weeks off which i spent in FL followed by a trip to PHX for a 72hr layover and now back home for another 3 weeks off....how much sunshine do you want???????????????????????

I am in ABQ, lots of sunshine here also, I am not talking about that kind of sunshine. I am talking about "I get to fly today and that makes getting out of bed something to look forward to". Is that the kind of sunshine you have, that every day you get to fly any airplane is a brighter day than one where you do not fly?

 

[TWA]

Man Boypilot, judging by your avatar, you require A LOT of sunshine to cover everything!

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I'm actually trying to understand how that could actually be sexy to someone... it is isn't it? Those chocolately thighs would drown me.

 

[TWA]

Well, I hope the mods don't ban me for this, but it's what I saw last night channel surfing, it's from Scrubs: "When a woman asks you if her butt looks big, tell her 'NO!', unless she's a black woman, where the proper answer is 'HELL YEAH!'"

 

[BOYCAPTAIN]

Hey......everyone lay off my girlfriend!!!!!!!! i know she has really small feet!

 

[Flightjock30]

Fellow Aviators,

I agree that $80k and flying a 757 and 767 sounds like it's great, AND BELIEVE ME IT IS and truly rewarding and I do consider myself very lucky to be in this position especially after having paid my dues as a CFI and as regional pilot for 6 years and then again my first couple of years at the major. What some of you may not know, is that if you are based in the North East of the USA, $80k is not nearly enough money to live in a decent area in a decent home, (please note I said decent, not luxury) Forget about putting money aside in a 401k, and forget about saving for a child’s education, (and I am sure most of you know how expensive that is). NOW I know we can always commute, trust me I know that this is an option but I prefer to just go home about 30 mins away, and not have to play the standby game and stress out while I just flew back from FCO and am very tired. What a chimera, to be able to live decently at your base! Commuting is very tough and hard on you. For those who continue to think its so much money check out some of the home prices, state income and real estate taxes in the NY Metropolitan Area and you will be shocked. PLEASE fellow aviators, I am not doing this for the love of money, if that were the case I would be with some Wall Street Firm earning the salaries that are required to live DECENTLY here in the tri-state area. Once again I am stressing DECENT and not requesting luxury. I also would like to once again reiterate that I love flying airplanes and don't prefer another profession, but I do think the salaries need to be addressed since many pilots are unable to afford to live in a DECENT area near his/her base so that he/she won't be tired and fall asleep while crossing the pond just because he/she has been hanging around the airport all day because he/she had to catch the 6:43 am flt from MCO because all the later flights were booked. Dear aviators please do realize that we are very underpaid and sometimes miserably treated by our leaders. Now I am not trying to be rude, but if I were to bet, most of you who I think I am acting childish and avariciously, probably are not pilots for AMR, UAL, CAL, NWA etc.
Once again, I want to stress that I am not seeking luxury, I want decency and respect, and most importantly I do not want to be in a fatigued state while flying passengers. They deserve a pilot who does not have any financial worries and not one who has been commuting all day.

Go buy yourself a decent condo in the Dutchess County area of New York and commute down to work in the city to fly out of whatever NYC Airport you are based out of. Contribute whatever savings to a 401K or Roth IRA

 

[azpilot]

If you're pulling in 80k a year and consider yourself poor, you've got some serious problems with your priorities.

Ever think of money for retirement? Money in the bank for furlough protection? What if you are married and have kids. Husband or wife stays at home to raise children vs expensive day care. All I am saying is 80k isn't that much. Some of us don't want to rely on our goverment to take care of us. We want to have money in the bank and be responsible. Me wife yes, kids no so I have chosen to have more money in the bank.

 

[A Squared]

Ever think of money for retirement? Money in the bank for furlough protection? What if you are married and have kids. Husband or wife stays at home to raise children vs expensive day care. All I am saying is 80k isn't that much. .

Okayy, once again, 85% of the folks in this country are somehow managing to scrape by on less.

Not saying more money isn't nice, I'll take more if they're handing it out. However the idea that someone is "poor" on $80,000/year is just absurd. If you think you're poor on $80,000/year, you don't have an income problem, you have a spending problem.

 

[pilotyip]

We agree?

Okayy, once again, 85% of the folks in this country are somehow managing to scrape by on less.

Not saying more money isn't nice, I'll take more if they're handing it out. However the idea that someone is "poor" on $80,000/year is just absurd. If you think you're poor on $80,000/year, you don't have an income problem, you have a spending problem.

We normally don't agree on too much, but there is a dose of reality here. I have never made more than 100K/yr and I am well set coming into retirement. After your second job lost, living below your means becames the key to success.