Don't Become An Airline Pilot

[BOYCAPTAIN]

Tell me do you feel getting hired at FedEx at age 25, was an example of your skill and desire, or luck and timing? If you feel it is skill and desire, why was your skill or desire at age 25 superior to 10,000 other pilots looking for jobs? How many pilots will ever even have a chance to even apply at FedEx? BTw You seem to enjoy your job and that makes it a great job.

Aviation is a combo of all of those things...some of us make our own luck...the skill and desire was there...aced the sim eval and interview...and had recommendations from people that thought i would make a good employee...i have had friends who have gotten the interview but did not pass the sim or failed the writtens...maybe skill was an issue...they had the desire and timing...at 25 FDX knew i could give them 35 years of service...jokes on them...i will be leaving much earlier ...i did the things i thought that put me in position to succeed and it worked out....yipee!...and yes i love the job and hope to stay healthy and finish up at 55...

 

[Publishers]

Having been in business now for 44 years and aviation for 30, I have hired and fired a fair number of people. To day that the process is purely objective or subjective would be misleading. As I said here before, I hired someone into a jet seat from a 402 when others were available as a result of watching how he handled working for the 402 operator particularly when the owner was out of town. Any interview was a forgone conclusion. Right place, right time. In a couple of years, he got a Bravo and Lear 60 type and now has the hours and experience to be competitive with fractionals or airlines. I am now trying to help in get to one of them with the hiring managers that I know.
I am glad you are happy at Fedex. Had I ever really wanted to work as a pilot for a job, I would have definitely headed there or one of the other hub deals as I loved the night flying and days off.
It is luck, skill, desire, but as much as anything the ability to sell ones self that makes the difference.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Part of the job and the industry is complaining. I can say that right up through the wide-body captain position flying for one the largest air carriers when captain's earned $300K plus and f/o’s earned $185K per year I heard nothing but complaining about the job. While even those who were so fortunate as this loved their jobs, negativity is just part of it. This is not always true but it is more the rule than the exception. It isn't always the money that pilots complain about, it's everything: The layover hotels, the crew desk, the management (a favorite target), schedules, age-60, the flight attendants, training, the union, current events,worthless pass benefits, commuting, jumpseats, politics, ex-wives, Hilary, etc. I can not explain why this is true but it is. My guess is that since you have to spend so much time with one other crew member for a multi-day trip or even a month long schedule, that negativity is a much broader subject than saying positive things. I mean how many times you can say what a nice day it is or how lucky you are. It's just much easier to bash everything until that becomes the norm and the habit of common cockpit behavior.

I hope you all have a nice day but chances are it's going to turn really bad. That's what always happens. Just try to plan something nice and it turns $hitty. You can't win. If it isn't the crew desk it's something else. Enjoy!

 

[Snapshot]

Have you ever heard of such a thing as professionalism.

Coddling adults who can't manage their finances is not my profession. I am not at work.
Apparently, you feel that coming to a board populated in large part by people who bust their asses day after day dreaming about flying a 75 to Paris (between Scuba diving trips) and crying to them that you can't survive with 3-5 times what they make is professional. Save your "I'm a victim" speech, we aren't buying it. If you don't want to be called a whiner, don't be a whiner.
Granted, about once a year, something I see here really taps into the rage center of my brain. Looks like you're it for 2008. Pilots like you are the ones that end up broke on retirement day and my sympathy for your kind has dried up in the last couple of months. I will offer two pieces of advice.
Stop living beyond your means.
Tell your husband to get a job and start pulling his own weight.

 

[N6069L]

Snapshot!!

Snapshot,

This thread and information and complaining is also for your benefit. You obviously, are not a pilot for a major air carrier, because if you were you would not be saying the things you do. You just don't make sense. Ultimately, when you do take your major pay cut to come to a major you can enjoy when, but of course only if, we actually do "take it back."

 

[N6069L]

Flying Magazine

March 2008 Issue

An Airline Pilot's Real Life
pg 34

Please read it Snapshot and start to understand.

 

[siucavflight]

AT 80K a year, you are making more then about 77% of this country. What will you be making in ten years? Most likely close to 200K a year, which will put you in the top 95% of pay for the country. You are right, get out now!!!

 

[Partridge]

Well, I for one have some sympathy with N6069L.

I appreciate it is hard to understand for those that are still working their way up to an airline job, or those private pilots that are flying for the joy and passion. But honestly... it can be disheartening to find that those things you thought you would find at the end of the line, after all the building of hours and paying your dues, arent completely what you thought they would be.

Yeah, it is a lot of money you get paid, but it is a lot less than it used to be when you were still working towards this job. Money isn't everything? Sure, I fully agree, but what about the terms and conditions that have been eroded away? Not quite the lifestyle you thought you would get at the end of this journey. Perhaps the worst is the overall morale, if everyone around is down and everybody is continuously complaining about everything, it simply doesn't make for a nice working environment.

Why not put this out as a warning to some, give them a heads up that it isn't all that anymore. Not to steer them away, just to get to adjust their expectation level. Maybe then they won't feel let down by their chosen profession.

Now, I don't expect some of you to understand this. No disrepect intended, I myself would have not understood it, even a few years ago, when I was hour building myself. But you see, expectations change as you climb the ladder.

I myself work for an airline in Europe and here the terms and conditions haven't seen the same erosion as in the US (there is time yet ), and I have to say that I genuinly enjoy virtually all aspects of my job. But that isn't to say that I cannot sympathise with someone like N6069L.

 

[N6069L]

Thank you Partridge.

Thank you for further clarifying my position. Maybe, Snapshot too will understand, unless of course his name is in a little dark booklet indicating why he states what he does. Snapshot, if you are not in the dark booklet, because only then do you still have a chance, please begin to reconsider your position and change for your and our best interest as it is ugly for the ones who are described by Jack London:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]After God had finished the rattlesnake, the toad, and the vampire, He had some awful substance left with which He made a SCAB. A SCAB is a two-legged animal with a corkscrew soul, a water-logged brain, and a combination backbone made of jelly and glue. Where others have hearts, he carries a tumor of rotten principles.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When a SCAB comes down the street, men turn their back and angels weep in heaven, and the devil shuts the gates of hell to keep him out. No man has a right to SCAB as long as there is a pool of water deep enough to drown his body in, or a rope long enough to hang his carcass with. Judas Iscariot was a gentleman compared with a SCAB. For betraying his Master, he had character enough to hang himself. A SCAB HASN’T![/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Esau sold his birthright for a mess of pottage. Judas Iscariot sold his Savior for thirty pieces of silver. Benedict Arnold sold his country for a promise of a commission in the British Army. The modern STRIKE-breaker sells his birthright, his country, his wife, his children, and his fellow men for an unfulfilled promise from his employer, trust or corporation. [/FONT]
http://mesabapilots.alpa.org/scabs1.htm

 

[24 carat]

Wow! Where did all that suddenly come from..?!!

 

[N6069L]

I tried to opine my concern for our profession, and was insulted on several occasions. It is a disgrace when bank tellers, waiters, ILLIGAL IMMIGRANTS WHO DON'T PAY TAXES, are earning more than pilots. We are educated and have much responsibility, and should not be exploited, or traded as some commodity by some hedge fund. (referring to mergers) It is time that we start understanding and demanding our true value!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

agreed... HOW?

 

[pilotyip]

E. K. Gann 1939

I tried to opine my concern for our profession, and was insulted on several occasions. It is a disgrace when bank tellers, waiters, ILLIGAL IMMIGRANTS WHO DON'T PAY TAXES, are earning more than pilots. We are educated and have much responsibility, and should not be exploited, or traded as some commodity by some hedge fund. (referring to mergers) It is time that we start understanding and demanding our true value!

Gann worked for AAL in 1939, could not live on F/O' wages, seniority system punished him because he was a slave to numbers, and when bumped back to F/O from Captain the pay cut put a real hurt on him. It is amazing how things have changed over they last 70 years.

 

[AirCobra]

Seem like some folks here have no concept of standard of living in different parts of the country. If you are a victim of geography the salary at most major airlines puts you solidly in the middle class even if it is $80,000.

I make over $80,000 a year as a Corporate Pilot in the Northeast. I chose to live in NY because I don't want to commute and my company has a four hour report time. Here are some realities. Rents are around $3600-4000 per month for a two bedroom (I have a child) so we elected to get a house. A similar house to the last one I had which I paid $225,000 is $650,000 so I had to downsize. Taxes are nearly $13,000 a year. My mortgage and taxes run nearly $4500 per month. Homes in the better school district are close to a million so we send our kid to a private school which is another $400 per month. I have already spent well over half my monthly paycheck for a modest home and a decent school. Making $80,000 in the Northeast means I actually have a slightly lower standard of living than I did when I worked in the Midwest and made much less.

Sure I may make more than 77% of the country, but I probably pay more for housing and taxes than 90% of the country. Companies that have domociles in NY like FedEx, Jet Blue, American, NetJets, and Kalitta who may seemingly pay these extravagant wages are really affording their pilots the same standard of living as someone getting $40,000 in Wisconsin.

What about companies like Comair, Eagle and Colgan that have bases in NY but the take home home pay is less than what I pay in taxes on my house. Is it right that these guys should live six or seven to a one bedroom apartment yet their airlines frown on commuting and want professional college graduates to fly their planes. Middle bunk with some dudes feet in you face sure takes the fun out of being a pilot.

The real trick is to get based in Memphis and make FedEx wages but not everyone can get the same domocile or for that matter a job in an area with a low cost of living.

Anyone thinking N606L should be saving $30,000 a year and driving a Corvette should see how far you have to stretch $80,000 if you have a family and live in New York, Seattle, Miami, or Boston, LA, San Fran, or San Diego. Sorry we can't all find jobs in Dallas, Detroit, or Memphis or we don't all want to commute 12 hours. Some of you guys have attitudes that suck and are helping to keep our wages in the gutter and being treated like hired help.

 

[pilotyip]

Belleville is great! 1700 sq ft house payments of $830/mo, taxes $1400/yr. 80K goes a long way. We have new hires buying new homes on first year pay. Live 10 minutes from work on an acre of land. Fayetteville, NC was even better, and we have pilot lives in ND bought a house cash for $6500.

 

[AirCobra]

How long will you be at USA Jet before you make $80,000? I would imagine several years. So if the average guy is making $50,000 it about evens out.

Detroit also has the worst housing market in the country. What happens if the housing market stays like it is around Detroit? Your house may be worth less in five years than it is now.

My post was really directed at folks like "Snapshot" and "Siucavflight" who seem to have no concept of what things really cost in relation to where you live. Just wanted to give those boys an education before they take a $100,000 a year job thinking they will be buying a mansion and an Escalade and they wind up having to live on Long Island or in San Diego where all they will be able to afford a 1400 sq ft. home and a Honda Civic.

Well I got to go wax my two Corvettes, talk to you later.

 

[pilotyip]

USA Jet Stats

Average USA Jet pilot has been there 5.1 years, makes a company average of $60K, this includes F/O's who have been there an average of 2.6 years and make $41K/yr. Average Captain has been there 7.2 years and makes a company average of $90K, this includes both DA-20 and DC-9. BTW 1982 was much worse than what we see now, just every pilot in my reserve unit had either lost their job or was bumped backwards in seats

 

[BOYCAPTAIN]

Seem like some folks here have no concept of standard of living in different parts of the country. If you are a victim of geography the salary at most major airlines puts you solidly in the middle class even if it is $80,000.

I make over $80,000 a year as a Corporate Pilot in the Northeast. I chose to live in NY because I don't want to commute and my company has a four hour report time. Here are some realities. Rents are around $3600-4000 per month for a two bedroom (I have a child) so we elected to get a house. A similar house to the last one I had which I paid $225,000 is $650,000 so I had to downsize. Taxes are nearly $13,000 a year. My mortgage and taxes run nearly $4500 per month. Homes in the better school district are close to a million so we send our kid to a private school which is another $400 per month. I have already spent well over half my monthly paycheck for a modest home and a decent school. Making $80,000 in the Northeast means I actually have a slightly lower standard of living than I did when I worked in the Midwest and made much less.

Sure I may make more than 77% of the country, but I probably pay more for housing and taxes than 90% of the country. Companies that have domociles in NY like FedEx, Jet Blue, American, NetJets, and Kalitta who may seemingly pay these extravagant wages are really affording their pilots the same standard of living as someone getting $40,000 in Wisconsin.

What about companies like Comair, Eagle and Colgan that have bases in NY but the take home home pay is less than what I pay in taxes on my house. Is it right that these guys should live six or seven to a one bedroom apartment yet their airlines frown on commuting and want professional college graduates to fly their planes. Middle bunk with some dudes feet in you face sure takes the fun out of being a pilot.

The real trick is to get based in Memphis and make FedEx wages but not everyone can get the same domocile or for that matter a job in an area with a low cost of living.

Anyone thinking N606L should be saving $30,000 a year and driving a Corvette should see how far you have to stretch $80,000 if you have a family and live in New York, Seattle, Miami, or Boston, LA, San Fran, or San Diego. Sorry we can't all find jobs in Dallas, Detroit, or Memphis or we don't all want to commute 12 hours. Some of you guys have attitudes that suck and are helping to keep our wages in the gutter and being treated like hired help.

FDX has no domicile in NY...and i make over $250,000/yr living in MEM but needed a 2nd home in Longboat Key to get away from Lil detroit....i am moving to west Fl soon and getting out of MEM...the biggest thing i learned in my 38 yrs and 13 at FDX is live within your means...life is real good that way and you can be ready for anything in this unpredicatable business. Corvettes suck!

 

[pilotyip]

What I have learned

the biggest thing i learned in my 38 yrs and 13 at FDX is live within your means...

What I have learned in 30 years in this business and 11 jobs is live below your means because every job is temporary.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

You may have heard of the RJ captain that had a plumber come to his house to repair a toilet. The charge was $240 for less than an hour of work on site. It was $80 per hour with one hour for the drive out, one hour for the work and one hour for the drive back. The pilot said that he only made $55 per flying hour, then commenting on all the expense and training he had to get his job. His point was that plumbers were paid way too much. The plumber then said that when he was an RJ captain he only got $45 and hour.

So the choice is yours, be the captain or the plumber. Glory or money.

In the future it may be that pilots only make school teacher wages. That doesn't seem to stop people from being school teachers, and teachers can become plumbers too if they so choose.

 

[N6069L]

snapshot!

Would you please retort some of the comments. Or do you finally understand the point perhaps.

 

[AirCobra]

Undaunted Flyer,
What you said has nothing to do what I was talking about. Posters like "snapshot" were saying that if you made $80,000, and weren't able to put away a bunch of money and have a big home and a nice car you were living beyond your means. I was pointing out that $80,000 in NY will not afford you the same standard of living as $80,000 in TN.

On your point though, did you know plumbers get paid during their apprenticeship, and that no new teachers have to take $15,000 a year jobs or have to pay schools they work at to gain "teaching time"?

Why should I get out of aviation, wouldn't it be better to try and change things from the inside rather than accept things the way they are. I have run into too many pilots who think because someone makes $80,000 they have it made.

Please don't tell any pilot "if I don't like it, go do something else". Better yet if you are an airline pilot, and the union is trying to negotiate better pay go to your next union meeting and say "if you don't like the wages you should become a plumber".

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Undaunted Flyer,
What you said has nothing to do what I was talking about. Posters like "snapshot" were saying that if you made $80,000, and weren't able to put away a bunch of money and have a big home and a nice car you were living beyond your means. I was pointing out that $80,000 in NY will not afford you the same standard of living as $80,000 in TN.

On your point though, did you know plumbers get paid during their apprenticeship, and that no new teachers have to take $15,000 a year jobs or have to pay schools they work at to gain "teaching time"?

Why should I get out of aviation, wouldn't it be better to try and change things from the inside rather than accept things the way they are. I have run into too many pilots who think because someone makes $80,000 they have it made.

Please don't tell any pilot "if I don't like it, go do something else". Better yet if you are an airline pilot, and the union is trying to negotiate better pay go to your next union meeting and say "if you don't like the wages you should become a plumber".

good stuff....

 

[pilotyip]

Teachers should complain

Undaunted Flyer,
no new teachers have to take $15,000 a year jobs or have to pay schools they work at to gain "teaching time"? .

No but 19 year old new hire pilot at USA Jet one year out of high school starts at more than a school teacher starts at after five years of paying for school and then student teaching for free. And after 10 ten years of teaching, a Masters Degree and 30 credits of additional continued learning the school teacher will make about $75K in Michigan, the 19 year old if he stay stays at USA Jet 10 years is making $100K. Should school teachers have web site to complain about how much non-college degreed pilots make?

 

[N6069L]

I could be mistaking, but I believe that a school teachers' pension was never for sale.

 

[siucavflight]

Interesting thread. And nice responses.
Undunted, I tend to agree with you. However I do think that we should be getting paid based on how much responsibility we are taking on. My first year at Eagle, not including per-diem paid me 26,700 dollars. That is horrible. My second year only 39,000. Think about how many people place their lives into our hands every single day. And in the mean time a$$holes like Terrel Owens are making 10,000,000 a year to catch a round ball. This country is f-ed up.

 

[pilotyip]

Gov't employee

I could be mistaking, but I believe that a school teachers' pension was never for sale.

If you want a job with an untouchable pension, growing income and great benefits that are untouchable go to work for the gov't. I don't think it exisits anywhere else. But we chose to fly airplanes. BTW I have been doing this for 40+ years and it has been a fantasic adventure, I would change little. I have never had a company pay me the 100K per year yet, but I am coming into retirement in good shape with no company pension.

 

[BOYCAPTAIN]

I have never had a company pay me the 100K per year yet, but I am coming into retirement in good shape with no company pension.

that's too bad...don't you think you are worth it?

 

[ALIMBO]

I guess as long as I have my health Ill be happy. Ive come to the conclusion Ill never make millions but as long as Im happy thats all that matters. And it just so happens to be the flying has kept me very happy even through all the rough times and bad days I know once I get in that plane its all forgotten about. I don't get paid to fly yet but I can tell you getting paid to fly is a joke there is many a days I would do it for free to add a paycheck no matter how small it is will make flying that much better to me. Right now the best thing I got going for me is flying and I hope I can enjoy it for the rest of my life.

 

[pilotyip]

Luck and timing vs skill and desire

that's too bad...don't you think you are worth it?

My luck and timing where not as fortunate as yours, so you have to take what you get. I am worth what my employer elects to pay me, if it is not adequate I go someplace else. I have turned down jobs and have left jobs because of pay. Since I do not have a lot of options at age 64, I am very content with my pay and how I am treated. I am happy, and lucky to be where I am today and that is more than I can for a lot of what I see on this site.