DL/NWA Seniority List Integration Arbitration starts TODAY...article

[Noserider76]

The NWA/REP merger was straight DOH, with conditions and restrictions, which ignored previous merger methods.

Nu

Conditions and restrictions which effectively nulified DOH and made it almost a staple, for what 20 years?

 

[Superpilot92]

I personally know an ex republic pilot who is chomping at the bit to finally bid something large, and he thinks this merger will allow it, when his redbook "friends" would not. That is another thing dumped on the Delta pilots, repressed seniority waiting to explode onto their new planes.

As mentioned those guys can all bid what they want now. nice attempt at stirring the pot though.

 

[Occam's Razor]

NWA 757 paid less than Deltas. NWA a330 darn near paid less than Deltas 757s.

I get it. You don't. It matters ONLY if you think the basis for the pay disparity should reflect in the SLI. Since the formula reflects their productivity, the issue becomes neutral.

It appears our side is making an issue of the numbers of jobs that were attached to aircraft that had bigger numbers in the mutually-accepted formula.

YOU appear to believe that fluctuating rates are more important that the underlying basis for the rates.

Neogitating captital, a lot of it, was used to bring NWA up to Delta compensation, and then give NWA equity.

1. So what? Your tenure at DAL doesn't give you the first-hand experience to put that in context. Remember when you went on strike to generate leverage? No? You didn't?

2. Was it done unilaterally or with preconditions WRT the SLI? If your answer to both of those questions is "no" [Hint: It is], it has no bearing on the matter at hand.

3. Inadmissable. Deal with it...

That will be reflected in the NWA career expectations as well as Delta career expectations. It is not a dream. It is reality. Your pay sucked. Our sucked much less. That matters, a lot.

The rates won't...the numbers of pilots will. Ironically, that is the essence of your side's proposal.

The "reality" is that pay rates don't matter...either before, or after. What matters is where we are on the list, and how important the panel feels our expectations of movement are. One of those is measurable. One is not.

I guess next is Superdupercalifragilistic premium widebody flying. Or perhaps the argument that red is a more senior color than blue. Oh yeah, age, let's use that.

Grow up.

The descriptor is used to differentiate aircraft by size. Simple terms like "widebody" get blurry when a "narrowbody" B757-300 carries more than a "widebody" B767...or a "widebody" A330 is lumped as the equivalent of a smaller "widebody" such as the B767ER.

We reached a compromise on the pay rates for those aircraft within the JCBA, but we KNOW size matters when we talk numbers of pilots...because we tie our productivity to size. And productivity is the bedrock of our contract.

Oh, BTW, the C2K springboard came off of United, whos springboard came off of our 777/764 agreement--they called it the Delta dot--just to bring you up to the facts pertaining c2k

What springboard did you use for the 777/764 agreement?

It's called Pattern Bargaining. It means timing matters. It means the actions of other pilot groups matter. And really, it means that sometimes it don't matter who you are, what you are, or even how good you are. Sometimes all that matters is when you are.

Still waiting for you to provide some examples of the "recent experience" you cited here:

While that is your opinion, recent experience has shown something somewhat different.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I personally know an ex republic pilot who is chomping at the bit to finally bid something large, and he thinks this merger will allow it, when his redbook "friends" would not. That is another thing dumped on the Delta pilots, repressed seniority waiting to explode onto their new planes.

Hence the reason the 787 Dreamliner is known as the Green liner

 

[Truckdriver]

The fences dropped in 2006...ex republic guys should have been able to bid to whatever they wanted since then.

Yeah, but they can only bid into a vacancy or growth slot and I beleive that not all of them have been able to bid into widebody positions yet.

 

[Truckdriver]

DOH is the easiest way to go, but it is a far cry from fair and equitable for the Delta guys.

 

[NuGuy]

DOH is the easiest way to go, but it is a far cry from fair and equitable for the Delta guys.

Heyas TD,

I would say that "it depends". It depends on which section of the list that you are looking at.

In most cases, especially towards the bottom half of each list, DOH works for both lists very well.

Nu

 

[johnsonrod]

No matter what happens, just think that it could always be a lot WORSE - you could be a USAirways pilot... YIKES! Instead, you will fly for the largest and potentially one of the most profitable airlines (beyond SWA) in the world.

I think we tend to forget that it could always be worse...

 

[abe44]

The arbitration hearing transcript makes for some interesting reading.

The NWA side has a huge problem, IMO. How do you argue for anything close to relative senority (let alone DOH...hahaha) when your airline has been shrinking (Dc-9's, 747-200's, loss of DHL contract, parking 757s) and the replacement planes aren't coming for a long time (late 2010 for the 787).

Meanwhile, Delta has added a bunch of airframes in the last few years (777's, 757s and 737s) and continues to expand with solid orders (of planes that have actually flown) in the near term.

My guess is that the best deal that the NWA pilots will see in the integration is/was back at the negotiating table. Unfortunately, that offer is long gone....

Now it's up to their lawyers to argue an impossible case.

And a teary eyed NWA pilot on a video talking about his dream of flying a 747 is not a good start....



Abe

 

[jetflier]

The arbitration hearing transcript makes for some interesting reading.

The NWA side has a huge problem, IMO. How do you argue for anything close to relative senority (let alone DOH...hahaha) when your airline has been shrinking (Dc-9's, 747-200's, loss of DHL contract, parking 757s) and the replacement planes aren't coming for a long time (late 2010 for the 787).

Meanwhile, Delta has added a bunch of airframes in the last few years (777's, 757s and 737s) and continues to expand with solid orders (of planes that have actually flown) in the near term.

My guess is that the best deal that the NWA pilots will see in the integration is/was back at the negotiating table. Unfortunately, that offer is long gone....

Now it's up to their lawyers to argue an impossible case.

And a teary eyed NWA pilot on a video talking about his dream of flying a 747 is not a good start....



Abe

Also consider that DAL has worse financial numbers than NWA according to yesterdays transcript.

Many failed airlines in the past were adding airframes at a time when they should have been conserving cash instead of adding expensive aircraft leases.

Consider the ratios of cash divided by the revenues mentioned in the opening remarks. DAL had a ratio of 13 while NWA was over 23, being only behind SWA the airline profit leader.

 

[abe44]

Also consider that DAL has worse financial numbers than NWA according to yesterdays transcript.

Many failed airlines in the past were adding airframes at a time when they should have been conserving cash instead of adding expensive aircraft leases.

Consider the ratios of cash divided by the revenues mentioned in the opening remarks. DAL had a ratio of 13 while NWA was over 23, being only behind SWA the airline profit leader.

I don't think anybody feels DAL needs NWA to survive, or vice versa. If we were talking about one failing carrier merging with one strong carrier, I could see your point.

I hope your lawyers have got something better than that for you to hang your hat on....

Bringing a bunch of planes to the table that are quickly heading to the desert will be a tough argument to overcome.

Not to mention, no new airframes for at least 2 years.

All of this with Delta in the middle of the largest international expansion in the history of the airline industry.

Abe

 

[FDJ2]

Consider the ratios of cash divided by the revenues mentioned in the opening remarks. DAL had a ratio of 13 while NWA was over 23, being only behind SWA the airline profit leader.

Consider the relationship between debt and revenue.

DAL: Revenue for latest 12 months: $20.2 billion
Debt: $10.9 billion
Unrestricted cash and short-term investments: $3.2 billion

NWA: Revenue for latest 12 months: $13.2 billion
Debt: $9.9 billion
Unrestricted cash and short-term investments: $3.2 billion

 

[~~~^~~~]

Many failed airlines in the past were adding airframes at a time when they should have been conserving cash instead of adding expensive aircraft leases.

Bullfeathers! NWA is getting 72 new jets this year. NWA pilots just aren't flying them.

I see these things everywhere. At market prices this is around a $2.2Bn purchase.

 

[Superpilot92]

Bullfeathers! NWA is getting 72 new jets this year. NWA pilots just aren't flying them.

I see these things everywhere. At market prices this is around a $2.2Bn purchase.

How many RJ's does DAL have and how many have yet to be delivered that wont be flown by DAL pilots? Who started the trend? Who has already outsourced the majority of their domestic feed? Poking sticks at NWA when DAL was the company that led the trend. At least NWA has maintained the DC9's this long and it looks like they will be around till 2012. We both agree that we need to keep any further aircraft deliveries on the mainline ticket and lets hope we can pull that off. Also NWA isnt getting 72 of them this year, the deliveries have been spread over a couple years.

Whats that saying? Those who live in glass houses shouldnt throw stones?

 

[Griswold]

Keep up the useful contributions you add to these discussions, they are very insightful.

I think I'm going to take out my 401K and put in a pool and call that my Christmas bonus

 

[RedRum]

The arbitration hearing transcript makes for some interesting reading.

The NWA side has a huge problem, IMO. How do you argue for anything close to relative senority (let alone DOH...hahaha) when your airline has been shrinking (Dc-9's, 747-200's, loss of DHL contract, parking 757s) and the replacement planes aren't coming for a long time (late 2010 for the 787).

Meanwhile, Delta has added a bunch of airframes in the last few years (777's, 757s and 737s) and continues to expand with solid orders (of planes that have actually flown) in the near term.

My guess is that the best deal that the NWA pilots will see in the integration is/was back at the negotiating table. Unfortunately, that offer is long gone....

Now it's up to their lawyers to argue an impossible case.

And a teary eyed NWA pilot on a video talking about his dream of flying a 747 is not a good start....



Abe

Abe,

Give it a rest.

I know you DAL guys love to make fun of the DC9 and how we are slowly phasing them out. At some point the MD-88 will need to be phased out too.

Don't give me this crap about how you are entitled to seniority because our DC9s are starting to go away.

One thing I have not seen addressed on this board is the fact that the NWA leadership team has not been proactive in trying to replace our DC9s with anything. They have stated that the engine technology is just not there for the 100-125 seat range airplane. Besides if you were here you would recognize that this airline has been for sale for the past year. This is self-evident in the way they have been running the operation on a shoe string budget. It was just an excuse to keep building the Compass operation. Is that our fault? Is it DAL pilot's fault that you led the pack in giving up scope to your regional carriers?

Either way you cut it, don't try to leverage our DC9 pilots away because it is an old airplane we are drawing down. A lot of the pilots that fly these airplanes have more than 8 years of seniority. Keep that in mind.

 

[~~~^~~~]

What would be the fate of these DC9 pilots if there was no merger?

 

[Schwanker]

What would be the fate of these DC9 pilots if there was no merger?

They'd still be flying the -9 per the long published draw-down schedule. Funny thing is, NWA is actually keeping -9s longer than scheduled. It will be several years before they're all gone. When they are, the current -9 drivers would be on larger equipment. The NWA scope restricted the 76 seat jet and new 100+ seaters would have to be purchased to feed the operation which would be filled with new hires. The bottom guy on the NWA list would move up 2000 line numbers before the last nine would be retired.

I know you feel like some big guy coming to our rescue. It's actually the DAL side of the equation which has the short term financial challenges and career stagnation as you have minimal retirements projected over the next 5+ years.

Schwanker

 

[Turtle21]

OMG, do you actually fly airplanes?

The vociferous arguments about seniority will be repeated for years, even the great grandkids of today's pilots will still be bickering about who got a windfall.

Welcome to the way of ALPA merger policy.

 

[Tref]

Have you guys all forgotten this little item?

SLI No Prejudice

23 June 2008
This will confirm our agreement regarding the use of certain discussions, proposals and/or agreements occurring during negotiations for a joint collective bargaining agreement between Delta Air Lines and ALPA covering the combined Delta and Northwest pilot groups and preparation for such negotiations.
The Delta and Northwest MECs and their respective representatives agree that any discussions, written or oral proposals or agreements, or other communications of any kind (including any documents, exhibits and data) between or among Delta, ALPA, the Delta MEC and the NWA MEC and their representatives, employees or counsel regarding pay rates on any aircraft type shall not be used nor in any way referred to either directly or indirectly in any seniority list integration negotiation, mediation or arbitration proceeding between the pilot groups for the purpose of attempting to demonstrate that one or more aircraft type(s) should be considered or not considered the substantial equivalent of any other aircraft type(s).
Please indicate your concurrence by signing below.
Sincerely,
____________________ ___________________
Captain Donald L. Moak Captain Dave Stevens
Chairman, Delta MEC Chairman, Northwest MEC