DL/NWA Seniority List Integration Arbitration starts TODAY...article

[Superpilot92]

That's pretty interesting considering the NW side is the side that keeps bringing it up!

ALL YOUR BASES ARE BELONG TO US!!

http://www.allyourbasearebelongtous.com/flash/

 

[Occam's Razor]

..payrates will not be used to compare one aircraft to another (different) aircraft...but payrates in general can be used ie. nwa 757 pays $144/hr, dal 757 pays $160/hr nwa 330=$162/hr dal 76-400 pays $172/hr----NOT saying those two aircraft are substantially equivalent just stating their payrates.. these are pre-merger payrates..

Those pre-merger payrates are certainly fair game. So are the formulas that resulted in those rates. Kind of a two-edge sword.

But I think we're getting distracted here. The panel will be tasked with merging the lists...not the payrates. The rates are set in the joint contract...and BOTH pilot groups have ratified them.

The pre-merger rates matter only to the extent one group (or both) choose to use them to establish primacy. In that event, I would think the actual Joint Contract would neutralize the argument.

The key will be how the panel views expectations. My personal experience is that arbitrators tend to give more weight to empirical items (the here and now, which can be measured precisely) more than they will arguments that include the phrase, "...the expectations of..."

 

[General Lee]

Those pre-merger payrates are certainly fair game. So are the formulas that resulted in those rates. Kind of a two-edge sword.

But I think we're getting distracted here. The panel will be tasked with merging the lists...not the payrates. The rates are set in the joint contract...and BOTH pilot groups have ratified them.

The pre-merger rates matter only to the extent one group (or both) choose to use them to establish primacy. In that event, I would think the actual Joint Contract would neutralize the argument.

The key will be how the panel views expectations. My personal experience is that arbitrators tend to give more weight to empirical items (the here and now, which can be measured precisely) more than they will arguments that include the phrase, "...the expectations of..."

Yes, and the NWA guys agreed NOT to use the new A330 payrates if they were brought up to the 764 pay rates. That is a large chunk of the senior pilots right there. I would also think that the "here and now" pay rates should mean alot, since that does give sight to "what could have been." No windfalls allowed. And, let's look at the here and now of aircraft parking. What has been stated? How will that affect each pilot group? What are the "expectations" of each group? All of those are important. Good luck to all of us.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[licorice]

Those pre-merger payrates are certainly fair game. So are the formulas that resulted in those rates. Kind of a two-edge sword.

..how so?... If the formula is based on weight, speed, pax capacity, range, fuel specs, aesthetic appeal of paint schemes, etc...etc...how did the premerger 757 payrate, for example, end up being 11% greater at DAL?
QUOTE]

The pre-merger rates matter only to the extent one group (or both) choose to use them to establish primacy

.

And which group, do you suppose, if they chose to, and you were a betting man, would use payrates to establish "primacy"?

In that event, I would think the actual Joint Contract would neutralize the argument.

..ahaa! I thought so...you so subtly display your true "leaning"...--not to belabor a point to much, but, how could both groups claim primacy on payrates?

The key will be how the panel views expectations. My personal experience is that arbitrators tend to give more weight to empirical items (the here and now, which can be measured precisely) more than they will arguments that include the phrase, "...the expectations of..."

.. with that, I will agree. But does that extend to the expectation that every Northwest pilot would have eventually been #1 on their list as Nuguy et al. would have us believe?---Or is the nwa "expected" seniority really a "here and now" and the actual dal seniority "here and now" really an "expectation"? [/quote]
Is it just inconceivable that premerger payrates could have any bearing whatsoever on what an arbitrator might want to, at least, take a casual glance at, among many other factors, in order to differentiate where two pilot groups are "coming from"?..I mean, could they just take a "peek" at the premerger payrates...for a minute?...30 seconds? -even if allowed to be followed with 20 minutes of caveats, exceptions, objections, disclaimers etc. etc.... ?

 

[PuffDriver]

Those pre-merger payrates are certainly fair game. So are the formulas that resulted in those rates. Kind of a two-edge sword.

But I think we're getting distracted here. The panel will be tasked with merging the lists...not the payrates. The rates are set in the joint contract...and BOTH pilot groups have ratified them.

The pre-merger rates matter only to the extent one group (or both) choose to use them to establish primacy. In that event, I would think the actual Joint Contract would neutralize the argument.

The key will be how the panel views expectations. My personal experience is that arbitrators tend to give more weight to empirical items (the here and now, which can be measured precisely) more than they will arguments that include the phrase, "...the expectations of..."

While that is your opinion, recent experience has shown something somewhat different. If the formula is what it is, why were NWA rates so much lower equipment by equipment?

I think that the recent mergers reflect that indeed expectations matter.

 

[Occam's Razor]

While that is your opinion, recent experience has shown something somewhat different.

Examples?

If the formula is what it is, why were NWA rates so much lower equipment by equipment?

I'm thinking you've never looked at the formulas in your own contract. If so, you'd understand. Here's a refresher:

The productivity of each aircraft is rendered into a factor that is multiplied by another number that ALPA and management negotiate. The product is the hourly payrate. The B777 carries more stuff (people, cargo...called "lift") a greater distance ("range") than a B757. [Note: "speed" is also a factor, but is essentially neutral due to similar cruising speeds for most airliners] ALPA contends that the pilots flying the more productive aircraft, in a per hour sense, should get paid more.

The multiplicand that ALPA negotiates [Hint: Why DAL B757's are paid more than NWA B757's right now] is influenced by...wait for it...EVERYTHING. It's a function of priorities and the environment at the time. Labor's shorthand for that force is "leverage".

Example: Your C2K negotiations took place in an environment influenced by UAL's stunning 2000 contract, with it's eye-popping payrates and work rules. The multiplicand DAL negotiated in the Summer of '01 reflected that. It was a snapshot that was made OBE by the events of 9/11.

The simplest way to counter the "We get paid more on the same aircraft so we should be more senior!" argument is to overlay the approved formula in the contract...and plug in the actual productivity numbers for the aircraft. In the case of the JCBA, we know that some of the formulas were artificially adjusted to get the deal done...but the pre-existing (old contract) formulas can still be submitted as evidence. Since the new ALPA-negotiated multiplicand in the pay formula can also be submitted [Note: The adjustment process and rationale can NOT be submitted], the argument is moot.

I think that the recent mergers reflect that indeed expectations matter.

Go back and re-read my post. I didn't say they DON'T matter. I said they are given less "weight" by professional arbitrators than irrefutable empirical data. A formula is more real than a dream.

 

[PuffDriver]

Examples?



I'm thinking you've never looked at the formulas in your own contract. If so, you'd understand. Here's a refresher:

The productivity of each aircraft is rendered into a factor that is multiplied by another number that ALPA and management negotiate. The product is the hourly payrate. The B777 carries more stuff (people, cargo...called "lift") a greater distance ("range") than a B757. [Note: "speed" is also a factor, but is essentially neutral due to similar cruising speeds for most airliners] ALPA contends that the pilots flying the more productive aircraft, in a per hour sense, should get paid more.

The multiplicand that ALPA negotiates [Hint: Why DAL B757's are paid more than NWA B757's right now] is influenced by...wait for it...EVERYTHING. It's a function of priorities and the environment at the time. Labor's shorthand for that force is "leverage".

Example: Your C2K negotiations took place in an environment influenced by UAL's stunning 2000 contract, with it's eye-popping payrates and work rules. The multiplicand DAL negotiated in the Summer of '01 reflected that. It was a snapshot that was made OBE by the events of 9/11.

The simplest way to counter the "We get paid more on the same aircraft so we should be more senior!" argument is to overlay the approved formula in the contract...and plug in the actual productivity numbers for the aircraft. In the case of the JCBA, we know that some of the formulas were artificially adjusted to get the deal done...but the pre-existing (old contract) formulas can still be submitted as evidence. Since the new ALPA-negotiated multiplicand in the pay formula can also be submitted [Note: The adjustment process and rationale can NOT be submitted], the argument is moot.



Go back and re-read my post. I didn't say they DON'T matter. I said they are given less "weight" by professional arbitrators than irrefutable empirical data. A formula is more real than a dream.

He, he, keep hang'in on by those fingertips and flailing your arms around. The facts are what they are. NWA 757 paid less than Deltas. NWA a330 darn near paid less than Deltas 757s. Neogitating captital, a lot of it, was used to bring NWA up to Delta compensation, and then give NWA equity. That will be reflected in the NWA career expectations as well as Delta career expectations. It is not a dream. It is reality. Your pay sucked. Our sucked much less. That matters, a lot.

I guess next is Superdupercalifragilistic premium widebody flying. Or perhaps the argument that red is a more senior color than blue. Oh yeah, age, let's use that.

BTW where is DTW and the pay rate argument?

Oh, BTW, the C2K springboard came off of United, whos springboard came off of our 777/764 agreement--they called it the Delta dot--just to bring you up to the facts pertaining c2k

 

[Flybet3]

How much you gonna bet they are going to go by DOH. I've always said, merge the lists by DOH but don't move anyone!!! and then once the vacancies come out then you bid by seniority. Simple.

 

[tblosser]

How much you gonna bet they are going to go by DOH. I've always said, merge the lists by DOH but don't move anyone!!! and then once the vacancies come out then you bid by seniority. Simple.

Not so simple. Delta’s previous mergers were not date of hire. As a result the pilots from previous carriers are not in date of hire order. If the arbitrators award date of hire how would these pilots be treated? Would they be re-ordered based on date of hire? That would move them ahead of current Delta pilots who they are now junior to.

 

[Superpilot92]

Not so simple. Delta’s previous mergers were not date of hire. As a result the pilots from previous carriers are not in date of hire order. If the arbitrators award date of hire how would these pilots be treated? Would they be re-ordered based on date of hire? That would move them ahead of current Delta pilots who they are now junior to.

I am not saying it will be one way or the other but this has to do with this merger not previous mergers.

 

[Flybet3]

Not so simple. Delta’s previous mergers were not date of hire. As a result the pilots from previous carriers are not in date of hire order. If the arbitrators award date of hire how would these pilots be treated? Would they be re-ordered based on date of hire? That would move them ahead of current Delta pilots who they are now junior to.

That's why they need to sort this sh*** out NOW. Put in black and white. It is that simple, but like always people have to make it hard. Put it in black in white, everyone will be date of hire, not one will get fu***d in this deal. See? SIMPLE.

 

[tblosser]

I am not saying it will be one way or the other but this has to do with this merger not previous mergers.

We can not ignore previous mergers at either airline. NWA own statement says

“The Northwest pilots who are entitled to perform this super-premium widebody
flying deserve to be placed among the most senior spots on the combined list.”

Note that it doesn’t say the most senior pilots on NWA list deserve to be on top of the combine list. Clearly red book green book will be a factor in this merger.

 

[nwaredtail]

Not so simple. Delta’s previous mergers were not date of hire. As a result the pilots from previous carriers are not in date of hire order. If the arbitrators award date of hire how would these pilots be treated? Would they be re-ordered based on date of hire? That would move them ahead of current Delta pilots who they are now junior to.

OMG, do you actually fly airplanes?

 

[tblosser]

That's why they need to sort this sh*** out NOW. Put in black and white. It is that simple, but like always people have to make it hard. Put it in black in white, everyone will be date of hire, not one will get fu***d in this deal. See? SIMPLE.

No I don’t see. Rearranging the current Delta list would undo previous binding arbitration awards. I am not sure the arbitrators have the authority to do this. Nor do I think they want to open that can of worms. Two things I know for sure, it is not simple and I will have absolutely no control over it.

 

[tblosser]

OMG, do you actually fly airplanes?

No but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night

 

[NuGuy]

No I don’t see. Rearranging the current Delta list would undo previous binding arbitration awards. I am not sure the arbitrators have the authority to do this. Nor do I think they want to open that can of worms. Two things I know for sure, it is not simple and I will have absolutely no control over it.

Agreed. Republic was made up of 3 smaller airlines (NC, SOU and HAW), one of which was also made of 3 smaller airlines (AW, BONZ, PAC = HAW).

The NWA/REP merger was straight DOH, with conditions and restrictions, which ignored previous merger methods.

Nu

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Agreed. Republic was made up of 3 smaller airlines (NC, SOU and HAW), one of which was also made of 3 smaller airlines (AW, BONZ, PAC = HAW).

The NWA/REP merger was straight DOH, with conditions and restrictions, which ignored previous merger methods.

Nu

Might wanna capitalize, bold, and italicize the "conditions and restrictions" from that one.

 

[Heavy Set]

Might wanna capitalize, bold, and italicize the "conditions and restrictions" from that one.

I personally know an ex republic pilot who is chomping at the bit to finally bid something large, and he thinks this merger will allow it, when his redbook "friends" would not. That is another thing dumped on the Delta pilots, repressed seniority waiting to explode onto their new planes.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

The fences dropped in 2006...ex republic guys should have been able to bid to whatever they wanted since then.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

And it can be argued that the only reason a certain airline was able to set the "dot" was another pilot group went on strike in 98 for two weeks to turn around a cycle of all airlines giving back. Said pilot group had to overcome anothers lack of resolve in 96(the economy had long turned around at this point). Leaving out these little pesky details is like the swa pilots acting like they have the highest pay now due to anything other than default.

[Oh, BTW, the C2K springboard came off of United, whos springboard came off of our 777/764 agreement--they called it the Delta dot--just to bring you up to the facts pertaining c2k[/quote]