DL MEC Rumor???

[spanky2]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~,
Military or non-military background...if you meet the airline's requirements (all of the requirements) then you can apply for employment. Back when Delta was hiring, I saw a mix of mil and civilian pilots. My new hire class was about 60/40 mil/civ. Several from ASA. Last time I checked, the company did the hiring...not DALPA.
So, if a merger of lists is going to happen where do you start? What if some DCI pilots do not meet the Delta hiring requirements? Do you split off them off? My guess is the senior DCI pilots want a DOH seniority #, ie, they want something for nothing. What about the former DCI pilots that left DCI, interviewed and were hired, and now get displaced by a DCI pilot who electedto stay at DCI.
No point in getting into a mil vs civ arm wrestle about who is better...once you get there, it just doesn't matter, cause the airline world is a non-merit seniority system.
I have jumpseated on many, many DCI flights with senior CA's and FO's who are very happy with where they are. Wrote LOR's for some of them to get interviews and passed on interview info. I have also been interrogated by a couple of CA's about RJDC and merger issues. One of my favorites involved a CA grilling me about SCOPE and job security....then he asked me what equipment I was on as I thanked him for the ride home...told him I just flew my last trip and was getting furloughed...PRICELESS look on his face.
TK is the bottom man on the seniority list...hired in Jul 2001.

 

[MedFlyer]

We apparently hired a very famous NY investment bank that specializes in restructuring. We also hired two aviation economists that each have 30 years in the aviation business. They got a hold of the Delta books and gave it a good look through. They initially determined that the 9% plus the 4.5% raise (or 13.5% off of the contract as of May 1st) would be good enough---along with other groups also participating somewhat---to get the needed financing to refinance our huge debt.

The problem General is that DL needs to do more than just refinance debt. DL needs to be competitive with all the other carriers. DL is getting eaten alive by the LCC's and a 15% cut (even if applied to all DL employees) will not be enough to get DL even close to the LCCs. How will DL compete on the domestic market?

Sure, DL can take these little cuts now and keep treading water. However, DL needs to do more than tread water. The company has to grow and that's not going to happen if they keep sellling off all future mainline deliveries just to avoid BK. That's a disastrous business plan.

 

[Heavy Set]

I didn't realize we had so many WHARTON MBAs on this forum with expertise in finance... First, the term "profit sharing" is a joke because anyone can manipulate "profit" - it is just an opinion. An airline can decide to use a different depreciation method one year or move leases on/off the balance sheet that would directly impact "profit." So, that should NEVER EVER EVER EVER be a consideration - it is an old management ploy.... It might be better to find another metric that can't be manipulated easily - that is why you hire financial experts for advice.

This idea that ASA or Comair pilots will be supporting the DAL pilots' wages is assinine - and that plays right into the hand of management. Do you guys support management? It sounds like it... Do you guys support MidAtlantics EMB-170 rates? You should because lowering standards appears to be your interest. It sounds like ASA and Comair Captain pay should be tied to MidAtlantic Captain pay because the standard is being lowered... Yes, that's what we should do - we should tie all Captain pay within a sector of the industry (i.e., regional Captain or major Captain) to the lowest amount. All 70-seat pay should be tied to the lowest 70-seat pay - so, Comair and ASA CRJ-700 pilots should be paid MidAtlantic EMB-170 rates right now. That is what I am hearing... Of course, that would be a disaster because the bar would be lowered for EVERYONE. Get it?

Delta's problems are not ONLY cost-related. Revenue generation also needs to be addressed. Cost cuts will be implemented (including generous pilot wage reductions - given that they don't HAVE to negotiate for a year or two), but all labor groups need to find some "FAIR" reduction - you can't target one labor group - especially since it is the ONLY UNIONIZED group. Management must also participate - with NO SPECIAL OFF-SHORE PENSION DEALS...

Grinchstein needs to realize this is not only a cost issue - what ever happened to that expensive McKinsey strategy project? Why did management spend $ millions on strategy work when something ain't working? Cost cutting alone won't be the answer - let's also keep management accountable for actually MANAGING properly and boosting revenue... It's easy to just focus in on costs and target the pilots as scapegoats...

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Spanky

I am sorry to hear that you are furloughed and I'm sure that most most others who participate in this forum would agree when I say that I hope you are back to work soon.

I can't speak for the CVG based DCI folks, but I have flown with many of the Virginia Ave. guys and gals and the vast majority of them would be perfectly content with a staple behind TK. Obviously given current events there would have to be some protection from swapping places in the unemployment line. With fully 50% of the seniority list having less than 5 years with the company and many of them hired post Jul 01, I am fairly confidant that the DOH issue that understandably concerns you guys is not an issue with the rank and file. It would be agreed to by 51% and I suspect a lot more of the pilot group if it were to come to a vote.

As far as meeting the requirements go, what would that be? If you mean flight time, that seems easily handled by placing company mandated minimums for upgrades and transitions.
As for the folks who left and were hired, good for them, how is it they would be displaced with a staple? What other requirements are you concerned with that we may not meet?

As for the last part of your post, if you are suggesting that your job was lost because of this DCI crews existance and their willingness to fly "your" routes on less expensive airplanes, then you are partially correct. Many of the thinner routes can not be flown profitably on 100+ seat airplanes with crews of 5 or more when there are 50 or 70 seat planes with crews of 3 or 4 to do it if not profitably, then at least with a minimum of blood loss while the market is built to where it can sustain bigger equipment. As an aside, a thin route is not defined by the size of the cities population as has been suggested by one of your peers here. I have flown a few of the city pairings that at first blush would sound like mainline territory(DFW-ORD)(DFW-PHX) and there were not enough people on those planes for us to be profitable much less mainline.

The obvious solution to stem the tide is to get us on board and get all of the "brand name flying" in house. It is a win-win situation for the furloughees who will get back to work sooner and have a lot of folks beneath them to ensure against another lay off. For us in that we stop being whipsawed by numerous factions. And for you(mainline) for the same reasons.

It's a rhetorical question anyway because the "man" will never allow it to happen. Takes away the ability to defeat in detail.

AMF

 

[General Lee]

Medflyer,

We know that there will be a proliferation of new LCCs cropping up, but we don't know much more than that. What if a major tanks and new INTL flight opportunities become available? In reality, we don't know what will happen, and we don't need to cut only one employee group's pay---especially since managment realy really wants to get that group's pay down---but not their own. What is the difference between a 20% cut now (with the raise in there), or 30% in two years? You don't focus on that. What about the efforts we are making now? We are still open to talks--to save them money NOW. Are snapbacks wrong? Can management have bonuses? Maybe we should limit that? Any problem with that? I want to see everyone participate in some way--and some people --like FINS---don't think they need to participate. I don't have a percentage for them--and I know they make less. (I used to fly E120s too---back in the mid 90's)


Fins,

TK is our bottom furlough, and he was an ASA pilot himself. We need him back before we can hire any new ASA pilots. I don't know how much you should contribute, and Delta is the one asking---not me. If you want future growth, I am sure Delta will ask for more---and give youless in your next contract. I am not the one doing it to you. I just think that EVERYONE should contribute. You decide how much. Grinstein is watching.

Sleepy,

I think you are right---Malone is more receptive to your MECs. But, he also was the negotiator during the C2K contract. Regardless, I think he knows that he needs your MECs help in this. I hope they can get something going that will be beneficial for all of us too.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Tim47SIP]

What are you thinking?

heavyset
This idea that ASA or Comair pilots will be supporting the DAL pilots' wages is assinine - and that plays right into the hand of management. Do you guys support management? It sounds like it... Do you guys support MidAtlantics EMB-170 rates? You should because lowering standards appears to be your interest. It sounds like ASA and Comair Captain pay should be tied to MidAtlantic Captain pay because the standard is being lowered... Yes, that's what we should do - we should tie all Captain pay within a sector of the industry (i.e., regional Captain or major Captain) to the lowest amount. All 70-seat pay should be tied to the lowest 70-seat pay - so, Comair and ASA CRJ-700 pilots should be paid MidAtlantic EMB-170 rates right now. That is what I am hearing... Of course, that would be a disaster because the bar would be lowered for EVERYONE. Get it?

Dood, do you even think about what you are writing here? You guys want us at ASA to take a percentage cut to help out. Share the pain. Fine, we will do that, but look what happens when we do that. We end up being BELOW Mesa and in par with Mid Atlantic. You are asking us to go well below "the bar" (that you say you are trying to protect) while you stay well above the bar even with wage cuts. You are blaming us for insinuating that you must lower the bar for Delta scumbag management, but that is not what is happening. How is it that it is alright for you guys to "uphold the profession" while allowing everyone around you (Delta emloyees) to fall below. Oh ya, I forgot. It is one for one and all for one with you guys.

Look, Delta can only last so long with the numbers we have now. I could care less about hiring analyst or invenstment bankers. Since DALPA hired them they will say what DALPA wants them to; i.e. just figure out the bare minimum that Delta can squeak by on. You can be assured that it was an objective rather than subjective look. It doesnt take a jenious to figure out that if there is less money coming in than going out, eventualy there wont be any more money. NO BODY is blaming the pilots for Deltas current problems. The point is that the industry is not the same industry that you guys signed your last contract in. Flexibility is the key here. Sh$t happens, 911 and the economy were not your fault, but they are definitely affecting the economic viability of our company. It is admirable to uphold the profession, but without Delta, you wont have a profession to uphold.

 

[furloughed dude]

I have to agree with the General on this one. Management is asking for huge long trem cuts, the pilots are willing to help, but signing a multi-year contract at their terms is ridiculous.

I am furloughed from another company looking for long term concessions. Managment is asking for UAL or AMR type wages. UAL went Chap 11 and AMR was going to file if they didn't get concessions. Delta is not close to Chap 11.

There was an excellent article out a week or so ago that thought management was asking for too much. Meanwhile they are operating at huge cost disadvantages awaiting these massive concessions. If they would meet in the middle, they could get concessions immediately, but management wants it all. If the economy goes belly up again or in the case of another catstrophic event occurs, I am sure all employees will help save the company. At the present, I don't think 30% wage cuts and significant work rule changes are necessary. Take 15-20% and get a deal. If the company keeps losing money, readdress the issue later.

Things in the industry are looking up now. The economy is coming back and so are the passengers. It definitely hasn't completely rebounded, but it is looking better than the last few years.

 

[lowecur]

I can understand where both sides are coming from, but this is your typical legacy confrontation between strong management and a strong union. NWA faces a similar situation

I would be surprised if anything gets done. It's all a matter of whos' sitting in the cat-bird seat. Right now DALPA feels they are, and will play it for all it's worth. In a year of so, Grinstein will be sitting in the Cat-bird seat, and DALPA will try and work out something close to what he's asking for today. He will refuse, and tell DALPA that the company is now in much worse financial shape, and he needs an AMR contract. The adversarial relationship will continue at that point unless DALPA agrees. If not, then a great company will stand a good chance of going the Chapt 11 route, with 7 to follow eventually.

DALPA is taking their stand for all the mainline pilots to try and set a precident for future mainline contracts. Is it courageous or short-sighted? Time will tell.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Not everyone telling DALPA to stand firm actually cares about Delta. I have friends there and only wish them the best. But, at this point, I think standing firm will only hurt the company. It may continue to enrich those about to retire, but it will hurt everyone on the back side of the seniority list.

Please spare me the "We're only trying to hold the line for mainline pilots everywhere". You're trying to hold the line to keep paying for the mortgage in Peachtree City.

Take the cut, suck it up for awhile, and make it up on the next contract. Those of you who haven't figured out a way to save up since 9/11 were furloughed or just not planning.

 

[General Lee]

Wait, time out. Let's start with TIM47:

Tim,

Come on man, you are falling for it again. To say that just because we have higher pilot costs---the company will go Chap 11? Sounds like a revenue problem to me. Also, a lot of the problems we have now are because Managment didn't bring back the planes fast enough to pick up extra revenue after the War. We are still paying for MD-11 leases (probably $15,000 a day each) while they are in the desert. We haven't sold them to anyone--they just sit. Had we brought them out earlier---we would have atleast paid for the daily lease rate (and the VP of Marketing even stated---We left money on the table.) Management decided not to hedge as much fuel this quarter--hoping that fuel prices would go down (they haven't--and CO and NW didn't hedge any fuel). A lot of the losses are just paper losses or accounting tools--like the pilot pension loss last quarter of $120 million or so. There are a lot of things that you and I do not see---and since we are not privy to this stuff--we have to trust the people who are---either management (who wants permanent pay cuts from everyone) or Dalpa (who has hired people to give them the truth---why would they lie? Why didn't they tell us to give zero? That would have made us even happier)
Why would Dalpa want to kill the golden goose? That is naive Tim. I am sure that we will go up with the percentages--but we won't give them everything---that is ridiculous. Everyone needs to give something to the Delta problem--not just the pilots. And, Heavyset is correct in his post---he seems like he did go to Wharton.


Furloughed Dude,

You seem to understand me and the analyst--Sam Butrick--who said that Delta and NW should take the current offers and run with it. They can get immediate savings now, and use that to fight off the others NOW. What some of the others don't see is that we at Dalpa would be giving savings of around $400 million a year (each year)--and with other savings from other groups--we could be saving Delta around $1 billion a year to fight off the others. Also, what the others don't see is that the economy is getting better at the same time, and more people are travelling---even to expensive locations like Europe or the Carribean. Sure, the $1400 walk up fares may be long gone, but the load factors are higher and can make up for some of the difference. (a few years ago we may have had a lot of those expensive fares--but only a 65% load factor---now we have cheaper fares but a 75% or better load factor) We easily could give them about 20% (15% plus the 4.5% May raise) right now I bet---but Grinstein wants to wait....


Lowecur,

Your type of fear is exactly what our management wants us to have. They know that we love our jobs and don't want to kill the golden goose---and that is what our VP of employee relations---Terry Erskine---is betting on. He worked at NW during their almost strike--and even went to their union and had some papers in his hand and said something like "These are the bankruptcy papers guys--what do you want to do?" The NW ALPA guys said, "Do what you have to do Terry, because we aren't signing..." They later came to an agreement that was lower and had profit sharing. Hmmmmm. Now Terry is with us. It is a gamble Lowecur---but one that even Sam Butrick thinks will not lead to Chap 11. I think the next scare could be during the next economic low cycle--and we all don't know when that will be. Hopefully we will come up with an agreement sooner than later and save up for that future event.


Flyboeingjets,

Come on dude. You tell us to suck it up---why don't you guys give up some free money now to help ATA get even healthier. I am sure they would take your money. Do you really think we could make up 30% and the other benies (vacation pay, per diem cut, cap increase, INTL pay, Night Pay, health care premiums....) in the NEXT contract? What are you smokin? Sure the company wants everything from us--and they would be jumping up and down if they got it. They really haven't announced many other cuts--excpet the stews who got a rather small percentage cut that they can make up each month with extra trips, and heath care cuts (premium increases) for everyone else (ours will happen too, along with the other cuts). That's really it. Nothing else has been cut from the other groups---nothing. Only the mention of pilot cuts and an 8% pay cut for the CFO. HMMMMMM. We are willing to give them about 20% NOW. Not wait 2 years. HMMMM.
Think about that will you--we are willing to give a cut, and the door is open--just not everything that they want. We know what THEY NEED--we have the books.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Tim47SIP]

General

Thanks for not ripping of my head. Good reply. It might not seem like it, but I am on your side. The only thing that you are saying that is a little confusing is the implication that management asked for 30% AND QOL issues and bennies. What I have read is that the whole package equated to roughly 30%. I guess I missunderstood to original request. I did not realize that he wanted 40% or so and for the cuts to be PERMANENT. That changes things, somewhat.
I have NEVER told you guys to give up the whole thing, at least I didn't mean to imply that. I guess what is needed here is a little more press with facts from the DALPA side. In typical fashion, it is played off as who is going to call whos bluff first. If G does not want to negotiate cuts now with snapbacks later (pending profits), then I have to aggree with your stance. Bit I still cant agree that the Delta MEC would want to put everone else below industry standards while mainline is so much higher than industry standards, but that is a different issue. I am sure Heavyset will let me have it fairly soon over that.

 

[General Lee]

Tim,

No problem. I know it seems like we don't want to give any pay etc....And that is wrong. We are willing to give them a pretty large amount---I believe around 20% (counting the 4.5% raise) and some other benies--like a per diem cut, health care, etc. (although I am not a negotiator.....) We want to help. But, Grinstein is going for it ALL--and no snap backs, longstanding---like 4 years or more, and he hasn't really said anything about other cuts from other groups. That just doesn't seem fair, especially since we have the only union. That just isn't prudent, and we should be negotiating--not demading. I still have 21 years to go here (hopefully!!!), and I want you and other ASA guys to come over eventually and upgrade your lifestyle too. As far as you guys giving in some pay etc---that isn't up to me, and I still think that everyone should share the burden----even if that is a 1% paycut for you guys---I just think everyone should contribute SOMETHING. (not EVERYTHING but the kitchen sink) Take care.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

General,

I hope you DALPA folks have it planned right. We both know management is not cutting their salaries enough, but they have you guys over a barrel. If you don't worry too much about that for a second, you can appreciate what you're getting now.

I hope you are counting the pay premium you have had since UAL and AA took a pay cut as an unusual benefit. Since you are taking the cut last you may have to be the last to return to higher wages. Isn't that how it works? Just trying to offer a different point of view.

Besides, won't the cut spur some growth? I think it will.

 

[General Lee]

Flyboeingjets,

I can kinda understand where you are coming from, but we are not in the exact same situation as UAL or AA. Yes, we have a large debt problem too, but we also are at the beginning of an upswing with the economy (AA got their cuts during the middle of a tanking economy and UAL was on the Titanic watch before 9-11)
and we also have more cash on hand than they did by far. (AA was down to around $1 billion, and UAL was around $1.5 billion in cash--we have close to $3 billion) Also, those airlines had more than one union---and that is key---more flexibility. Delta could change the other's pay etc tomorrow if they wanted---but they don't want any more unions on the property, and they have an incentive to just try to get the pilots to take the brunt of the cuts--and then slip some smaller ones to the others. That would keep the Unions from the door...

Also, it sounds like you think we DON'T want to participate? We do---and we would probably give up to 20% (including that raise), and other benies that would probably give them around $500 million a year in savings----NOW. That is a lot from one group---and we have spent YEARS fighting for those things.

Will those cuts spur growth? Sure, I bet it would----and the other groups giving 5% or 10% here and there would bring even more.... I think we should give the largest cuts---no doubt---but not the ONLY cuts.....Doesn't that make sense? Sam Butrick--the analyst--said they can't use the bankruptcy card anymore due to the cash on hand and the growing economy. So, if they want the 20% and change now, they can have it and probably save around $1 billion now versus waiting about 2 years for 30% then--and they might not even get it then because AA is adding 9% to their pay (hey--they get yearly snapbacks--and Grinstein won't give us any!!) this year alone I believe. The later they wait--the less they might get then....I hope Kerry wins for President too....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~,
Military or non-military background...if you meet the airline's requirements (all of the requirements) then you can apply for employment.

So, if a merger of lists is going to happen where do you start? What if some DCI pilots do not meet the Delta hiring requirements? Do you split off them off? My guess is the senior DCI pilots want a DOH seniority #, ie, they want something for nothing. What about the former DCI pilots that left DCI, interviewed and were hired, and now get displaced by a DCI pilot who electedto stay at DCI.
No point in getting into a mil vs civ arm wrestle about who is better...once you get there, it just doesn't matter, cause the airline world is a non-merit seniority system.

I can't imagine that any of ASA's pilots would not meet Delta's standards. After all, since I've been at ASA our standards have arguably been higher than DAL's (sim rides come to mind). But under the law, we met Delta's standards when they bought us - just like the F27 pilots of Northeast, Western, or the ATR pilots at Ransome / Pan Am / Delta.

Apparently you did not read my post because if you would have, you would have read that ALPA mergers have historically gone by paycheck, or equipment type. A senior ASA pilot might wish to win the lottery, it does not mean that his wishes will be granted.

It amazes me that pilots like you, furloughed as a direct result of your MEC's apartied policies, support your MEC instead of insisting that they act to resolve this rift and put a few thousand pilots below you.

This is not about military v/s civillian - it is about ALPA representing ALPA members.

~~~^~~~

 

[46Driver]

You are assuming that an ALPA's members first loyalty is to ALPA. In many cases, it is not. Members of the Corps will go to the wall for a brother Marine, same with the Navy, Air Force, and Army. ALPA just doesn't inspire that kind of loyalty.

 

[Tim47SIP]

Sure they do!

You are assuming that an ALPA's members first loyalty is to ALPA. In many cases, it is not. Members of the Corps will go to the wall for a brother Marine, same with the Navy, Air Force, and Army. ALPA just doesn't inspire that kind of loyalty.

It just depends on how much money they get!

 

[General Lee]

Fins,

A lot of your current senior pilots would not meet the current hiring requirements--like a College education, no dui's, and no major violations. (not every senior guy is like that of course--but many of the very senior Comair and ASA guys are like that--or they would have left 10 years ago) As far as flying standards, you are right---most ASA pilots could easily pass Delta checkrides---I think most people in this stage of the game could-----studying required and focus--like all checkrides.


As far as the ALPA merger poliy---there is not be no major financial indfall for the merging pilots, and yes--it is done by pay etc. Guys in their second year at Delta could make close to $100,000 a year-(atleast with this current contract)--so there would probably be close to a staple--if not an outright staple---which is appropriate in my opinion. I have no problems with a staple of the DCI carriers, and I think most Dalpa people wouldn't mind either---but would Grinstein?

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[spanky2]

I can't imagine that any of ASA's pilots would not meet Delta's standards. After all, since I've been at ASA our standards have arguably been higher than DAL's (sim rides come to mind). But under the law, we met Delta's standards when they bought us - just like the F27 pilots of Northeast, Western, or the ATR pilots at Ransome / Pan Am / Delta.

Yo ... dude. I will bet my furlough paycheck against your ASA paycheck that there are ASA pilots who do NOT meet Delta competitive requirements. Some differences include FEW, 1000 TT, college degree, etc. These are the MINIMUMS, not what is competitive. Based on your logic, many, many former DCI pilots obviously wasted their time interviewing at Big D when they could have just waited to get something for nothing. Repeat...something for nothing. Since Big D won't be hiring of the street for MANY years ... something for nothing looks pretty good right now in your shoes. I wish I would get some / any Delta credit for 20+ years of military aviation...ain't gonna happen ... but I knew that going in to the interview.

ASA standards higher? Stop sniffing your highlighter. But you obviously are very familiar with Delta training. How did you type that with a straight face? and you caught me ... former military pilots are exempt from sims and checkrides at Delta. SSHHH...it's a secret.

Suddenly, DCI pilots meet Delta stds when purchased??? How can I argue with that logic. Duuuuuude ... put your O2 mask on. Just because practically every mainline city pair (including many to Mexico, Bahamas, etc) in the system has been replaced by RJ this and RJ that ... don't get dilisional. But congrats on your job security and shiny new jets.

ALPA...SHMALPA. ALPA is the borg. ALPA is about $$. What have they done for me lately? Zip. Nada. IMO, ALPA is a necessary evil in an industry run by bankers and bean counters. ALPA has many tough challenges but it is a democratic system / majority rules ... and furloughed pilots pay no dues and therefore have no voice. ALPA does not furlough pilots. Companies do. Would you like to get bumped out of your seat for 1060 Delta pilots?

The RJDC virus is spreading voices to your head ... something for nothing ... someting for nothing ... take some vitamin C (common sense).

The line forms behind TK.

Fly Safe.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Spanky :

Delta had no objective verification of your flying skills, (IE Sim Eval) prior to your winning the game of "who do I know that knows Plato." Further, the differences between mainline and regional training (which you don't have in your background) can be summed up by the pass rate for American pilots in Eagle's training program (around 20% if I am not mistaken, you don't get spoon fed at the regional level). Depending on your perspective any of us can look dispairingly at the other group of pilots.

There are more pilots at ASA with Graduate degrees that those without Bachelor's degrees. But, if you believe book learning is a substitute for common sense and skills, you have lousy judgement.

But, none of this is the point. The point is that your job has been outsourced because of ALPA's apartied policies. A union's job is to stop alter ego airline operations, not to encourage them by the formation of "non preferred" pilot groups that management eagerly assigns flying to.

Ideal scope has Delta pilots performing all Delta flying. Your MEC has the power to attain that goal and get you off the street. But first you, and like minded pilots, are going to have to give up that illusion that you benefit by being a "superior" unemployed pilot.

The only way to achieve the goal of all Delta flying done by Delta pilots is for your MEC to control all the airplanes, all the flying and all the pilots. The most effective way to achieving this, is a merger. The likely alternative is an RJDC win. If that happens you guys lose any hope of controlling the outcome. You can be assured you would come out better in a merger dominated by your MEC, than one dictated by an Appeals Court Judge.

Your call....

~~~^~~~

 

[General Lee]

Fins,

Sure, there was no initial sim ride for the interview, but I then had to go through the HARDEST course of my life---the 727 FE course--which was an intense hazing. Then six months later I went through 737-200 school for Delta Express. So, I had to pass two big "sim rides" or I would have been fired. (in my first year---on probation) Just because you don't have an initial sim--doesn't mean you skate by without doing one. And, too bad that 727 FE course is gone--because it really was brutal and made you feel great after it was done. ( it was a marathon--not a sprint)

As far as putting all of the DCI flying with ASA/Comair---I agree with that. We might as well get full profits while flying Delta's RJs.
And, I am also for helping our furloughs like Spanky and TK get back into the cockpit (an RJ cockpit) unitl they can come back to mainline--and then after TK---hire ASA people. I think our MEC would be in favor of doing something for our furloughs----I have talked to many MEC people and they say they are a "furlough friendly MEC." So far they have helped get them Cobra payments, fought for them getting 250 back and hopefully their back pay, and will not forget them in the end. Whenever I see Dalpa MEC memebers in the lounge, I stop and say to them, "don't forget our furloughs." I want as many people flying the line behind me as I can get. I do hope the MEC tries to get all of that flying under one umbrella---and helping our furloughs too in the process.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Yeah,

What he said!

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Oops!

What the guy before him said!

 

[FLB717]

Gentlemen,

First let me start by saying that as an ex-cmr pilot I’ve been represented by one of the foremost “Regional” ALPA units. Most I would guess are far less aggressive or strong as the pilot group at cmr, but then I freely admit my bias on the subject.

However as a member (not the voice of my union or company) of the NPA (AAI’s in house union, National Pilots Association) I would like to give a small monologue of events that transpired from ALPA National to our BOD (Board of Directors) when they asked us to become part of ALPA. When one of our leaders asked what percentage of our membership dues we would retain to run the MEC it was roughly stated at 30% or so. A stronger thinking person asked/told them that that was a very small percentage to have and continue our current level of service to our members. A person ( I believe from the accounting side and not a ALPA pilot) responded with “You pay your money and we will tell you what to think” Now that may or may not be representative of the complete conversation or the views of many or all of ALPA’s employees. But I feel that it is a direct example of the money hungry non-equal representation of ALPA in respect to Major/National and Regional carriers. So I can tell you from MY experiences and belief that I am far better represented at the NPA. And if need be I can confront my leadership one on one in a five minute drive from the terminal to the office and ask “ WTFO”. And no the vast majority of our pilots do not want ALPA, because they have been ALPA, no and that is not the minority but a majority who have been. And I would guess only 50? of 830 pilots have any Eastern ties from any of the three camps. I also think that our affiliation with CAPA (AMR, UPS, ABX, AAI and SWA) gives us a real voice in DC to balance and strengthen any ALPA policies that we agree with.

FLB717

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Wait a minute did that Spank me guy say "something for nothing" like three or four times as if to suggest that his peers were not guilty of the same thing with respect to hiring at Comair and the resignation of their seniority numbers?

 

[Tim47SIP]

Spank whatever

ASA standards higher? Stop sniffing your highlighter. But you obviously are very familiar with Delta training. How did you type that with a straight face? and you caught me ... former military pilots are exempt from sims and checkrides at Delta. SSHHH...it's a secret.


Just to let your know. Two of ASA's pilots recently (OK 6 months ago) were sent to Delta to go through your training and see what the difference was between the two carriers. The intent was (we were told) was to try and align Delta's way and our way. The reslult were 737 type ratings for the two individuals. One male and one female. Thier initial feelings were that our (ASA) training was much harder in regards to information (like drinking from a fire hose) and sim training. They did not say that Delta's training was a walk in the park either, but there was a measurable difference. Additionally, as a result, we are getting some changes in our training and methodology in regards to EP's and some standardization issues.

What I am getting at here is that there is a viable difference between the training. I have NOT heard of one Delta furlougee that has been hired that did not pass, but I am really not sure if there has been any. I do know that we have had several Eagle guys that have gone through training and have indicated that ours meets OR exceeds their system. So I would guess the same wash out rate for AA guys, but since I dont think we have had any Delta guys not pass (or very few), maybe there IS an agenda with the Eagle training department. Who knows.

If I were a betting man, I would have to guess that at lease 90% have BA/BS degrees or higher here at ASA. I know several guys with Graduate degrees (such as myself-and no it wasn't in spelling ) and a several with PHD's. Many are retired (like me) or AD, that flew/fly B1's, B52's, KC-135's, C-141's, C-17's, C-5's, F-15's, F-16's, F-111's, 47's, 60',s, 64,s, E-6's, P-3's, F-14's, F18's, 46's, 53's, V-22's, UH-1's, T-34's, C-12's, C-36's, and others that I dont know about, individuals who were getting ready to move to mainline until 911 because they met competitive min's, or ERAU type graduates. We were very particular during the hiring boom, as our wash out rate was fairly low (at least after they revamped the E-120 program-I mean fired the the Goodsman ) Anyway, we are not all wanting "something for nothing". I guess other than PFT, there is really not much difference between you and us. We just want and end to the rediculous mentality the Delta MEC has used over the past several years. I know of no one that would not except a direct staple. Of course I dont know all of the very senior guys either, so you may have a point.

 

[Freddie Spencer]

My kock is bigger than yours!!

 

[General Lee]

I like Freddie's response!

Anyways.....I think as long as you focus and actually study instead of drinking every night at Malone's---you can pass anything at this level---but you have to FOCUS.....

Bye Bye---General Lee


PS--It would have been interesting to see those two fine pilots try the old Delta 727 FE course---nothing like a 4 hour oral about old 727 systems from a retired Pan Am guy that was a PFE (Professional FE) his whole career.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Trade you the 727FE oral for being junior manned out of initial for E120 Capt! I think our bust rate got to be around 80% on the first try But if you know your memory items and systems after 5 hours at Malones, when they have the Pauliner Octoberfest - you know 'em!

General is correct, initial training is never cake. I was just point out to "Spank Me" that his selection by Delta was not justification for his bigotry. In fact, the same bigotry cost him his job and allows the decline of our profession as flying is awarded to the most "cost effective" DCI partner.

And General, it is fine with me if your pilots fly airplanes that were "ours" based on contract 96 scope, as long as they are senior to me on the list. Otherwise, who pilots the airplane will depend on how the Judge rules.

What if Northwest bought Delta, but Northwest pilots (feeling they were superior) refused to merge with you, throwing out contractual language that you felt obligated the union to merge the seniority list. The Duane Woerth decided that furloughed Northwest pilots would have rights to come over to the top of your list and fly your most desired equipment while you stagnated?

If that happened I think TK, Spank Me, and the rest of the hitler youth would be waiting in line at Michael Haber's office with the Allegheny, ASA and Comair pilots wanting a hearing with Judge Glasser.

Even you must admit, it is not equal representation when ALPA treats us 90 seat and below narrow body jet pilots like our only role is to slave away on the Plantation to support industry leading wages at bankrupt mainline carriers and to row the lifeboats over to the Titanic when it becomes obvious those mainline jobs have gone away.

~~~^~~~

And Freddie - Everyone knows it's a potato.

 

[super ed]

Tim,

Are you sure about your facts with the 2 ASA pilots that went through Delta's 737-800 program? I seem to know that a certain ASA fleet manager did pass the program. A certain hiring department Capt. at ASA did not. Not even close. First time anyway. Sounds like 50% of the ASA pilots can pass.

Ed