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DL MEC Rumor???

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Let's see give up my number for Comair Not! There are very few jobs for us, but it is still worth holding on to the number 1,060, bar a few companies. Southwest, UPS, and Fed Ex to name the few, of which two are not hiring. I refuse to give up what took me so long to get.

Maybe I have on rose colored glasses, but I am not going back to the "salt mines" again, especially if I would have to give up my seniorty number.

TK+0
 
Spanky,

Thanks for the sage advice...o' wise / experinced one
Anytime pompous egotistical jercoff.
The world is not a level playing field. Nothing personal, just fact.
I'm OK with that.
Thanks for your service to our great nation.
And I salute your sacrifice as well sir!

GL,

You asked, I will attempt to answer. Of course I would not give up my number at Delta if I were in their place.
I said it before and I repeat, It should not be that way. You're ticked off at the wrong people though. I believe that there is some degree of penis envy over there that make some in a certain MEC unable to play well with others. That does not make the entire pilot group at Comair responsible for that unfortunate policy. Ultimately that policy was handed down from on high and the folks flying the planes at Comair had no more influence on it than you or I.
Incidentally, what should the hiring policy at Comair, ASA, or any other National Airline be with regard to furloughs and whether or not they should be required to resign their number?

AMF
 
XRMEFLYER,

I wouldn't say I am upset at the "average line pilot" out there at Comair, but unfortunately they are going to be catogorized for their MEC's or management's decisions. As I said before, their full response was definitely "underwhelming." Infact, the people that represent them---their MEC---used extorsion to try to get something in return for "possible" help. What they can't see here is that 1060 pilots were caught in the middle of this--and most still don't have a flying job. Comair, in the the mean time, is hiring. Hmmmmm. It's not like these furloughs would be going to the left seat or bumping anyone---nope.

I know your position, and I am glad that you wish it would have gone differently. I wish more of your people voiced that, to the right people who "hold the keys to the Golden Rule Chest." Unfortunately, the Comair pilot group will take a hit for this sometime in the future, and the reason will be because of the lackluster effort. It's like watching something on TV and seeing starving people in Africa and turing to your wife and saying, "Heck, that isn't happening...." We at Delta can and have done a lot for our furloughs---free Cobra, sponsoring furloughs, emergency relief funds, Christmas presents, etc....But, we can't get them employed without some help. We are still trying to get them back as fast as possible, and did get 250 back so far--with more hopefully in the future. I am not giving up on TB Kane---I won't be totally happy until he is back on the line.

Bye Bye--General Lee

:rolleyes:
 
General Lee

Just curious. I use to read the posts from DAL pilots all the time, especially on the ALPA national board, and they were always saying that if Comair/ASA pilots wanted a staple, it was up to them to negotiate it with management themselves. The Delta guys made it clear that they were not going to "expend negotiating capital" on Comair or ASA.

Why is it different now? Why should the Comair pilots "expend negotiating capital" on Delta pilots? Isn't that the responsibility of the Delta pilots themselves?
 
Nindiri,

Currently we are holding up the bar on Major pay rates (which should be lowered here eventually a tad) and you guys are doing it for the regionals. I think 9-11 changed a lot of things--especially helping each other out. But, the Comair people could have easily helped our furloughed people---just like the ASA people did (pilots, management ---whoever helped our furloughs....). But, the Comair MEC wanted something in return---during a terrible time for our furloughs--who found themselves in a bad situation fast. The ASA people stepped up to the plate and saw the situation the way it really was---people NEEDING HELP.

I believe our MEC just approved and backed your possible merger between ASA/Comair--seeing that it would help save money by throwing out a lot of extra management positions and streamlining everything. We backed you---again---just like we did during your strike. And, our furloughs are still hoping to get a job while they wait to come back--and most are hoping probably for a slot at ASA or Chataqua now. Can you see the double standard that continues to go on at Comair? They might help our furloughs---for a price. And, I don't think any of our people ever minded if there would be a staple---but back when we were negotiating for our C2K contract---the DCI people thought they had "won the ALPA lottery"----date of hire seniority. They were jumping around---giddy. This was distracting during our negotiations, and in the end was shot down---but not the staple part. As far as I know---nobody was ever against a staple job---except Delta management.

Bye Bye--General Lee;)
 
---the DCI people thought they had "won the ALPA lottery"----date of hire seniority.

Easy there stallion. There you go again painting the whole group with the same brush.
That was 100% our ALPA reps who stipulated that silly date of hire thing. There was absolutely no vote of any sort from the rank and file before they went to Delta with that proposal. They(our reps) basically just told us hey"this one list thing is a go" and that was all we knew of the proposal until it was shot down in flames. If it had ever come to a vote even back then(Summer '00) It would have passed overwhelmingly as a staple. Why was there no counteroffer from your side? Could it have been that you knew the "no furlough clause" was going to be a part of your soon to be completed contract?

AMF
 
XRMEFLYER,

I doubt that. Nobody would have turned down a staple---that would have given us more people below us, and nobody knew 9-11 was coming. All I remember was flying a 767 from MCO to ATL one morning and a Delta jumpseater telling the Capt that the ASA/Comair guys wanted date of hire merge---and he said ,"Fu__ 'um, I can't believe they are trying to screw with us during our Contract talks....." A friend of mine at ASA at the time said she saw the pilots literally jumping up and down with glee when they first thought that they would get date of hire. It was ridiculous supposedly.

Overall, I would still like a staple--even with fences so that no current ASA/Comair pilot would be furloughed, and bring back ours to the bottom of your list until they are recalled---and then start fresh. I would like that---but Delta would not probably.


Bye Bye--General Lee;)
 
XRMEFLYER said:
That was 100% our ALPA reps who stipulated that silly date of hire thing.
AMF

XRMEFLYER,

You've been doing pretty good so far. There is no need to make statements that are not factual to placate General Lee. None of your ALPA reps ever stipulated any "date of hire thing". That is not true.

The General has a noble clause in seeking to defend and help his fourloughed bretheren. But instead of doing that, he actually makes matters worse, because his posts are full of untrue statements and threats. His strategy is not unlike his MEC, which is exactly why his Chairman got no special help.

The DOH garbage is a propaganda effort mounted by the Delta MEC. They used it as a tool to incite and rally their apathetic rank and file in support of C2K. There was no DOH demand ever by the Comair MEC. Period. Don't believe the Delta pilots' propaganda machine.

In the case of the hiring of their furloughed by Comair, the Delta MEC Chairman did not ask for help from the Comair MEC. He came to the MEC with a bogus offer of preferential hiring, on which he could not deliver, and a threat of "going public" if they did not do what he wanted.

He already knew that Delta management was not interested in supporting him by directing Comair management to hire his people, which it could have easily done. They turned him down, before he came to the Comair MEC. He announced, again before he came, his intention to go public if he didn't get what he wanted. I wasn't in that meeting either, but I am confident that is exactly why he was turned down, and he should have been.

Buergey is not stupid. He knew exactly what he was doing. He wanted to be turned down and he did it in a way that would guarantee just that. Just like the DOH propaganda generated by his predecessor Giambusso, he wanted a tool that would incite the Delta pilots against Comair pilots. Why? Because he and ALPA don't like the litigation against ALPA and the DMEC's predatory scope clause.

As for the General's rhetoric about how much the Delta pilots "helped" us in our time of "need", that's BS too. Yes, they paid the strike assesment. As you pointed out earlier, that was not a matter of choice, it is a mandatory requirement of ALPA membership that applies to all. Yes, they didn't fly struck work, but they did not do that because they wanted to "help us". They did it because they did not want to be branded as scabs.

Some Delta pilots did contribute to our family fund. That was voluntary and we should be thankful to those who did. However, the truth is it was dam*ed few of them and dam*ed little. The American pilots, who don't even belong to ALPA, gave far, far, more than the Delta pilots. So don't let him fill you up with the BS about their largess.

Before they got their contract, some of them walked our picket lines. The day after their own contract was a done deal, all of them disappeared.

We can't paint them all with the same brush, because there are thousands of fine and good people on the Delta list, but the majority are self-serving. By that I mean that they have a history of "helping" whenever they think it serves their own interests, and a history of doing nothing whenever it does not.

Their MEC has used its influence against the interests of Comair pilots for more than a decade. Long before the "strike" began and continuously since it has ended.

They did their dam*dest to take away ALL of our 70-seaters. They did not succeed, because the Company (Delta) would not let them. They have been trying to do that since they first learned of the order, and they have not given up. While they tell you in public how much they wanted to help and how they hoped we would win, in private they do everything in their power to take whatever they can and restrict what they cannot take.

There belief that they should have "special rights" at Comair is nothing new. It did NOT start after Delta purchased Comair. They had that same belief long before. Now that their Company "owns" our company it is merely upgraded from a right to a sacred right.

Before they ran into difficult times, the truth is they wouldn't give us the time of day. As a matter of fact one of their former MEC Chairmen even had the audacity to demand an apology from our MEC Chairman, because he requested an audience that "God" wasn't disposed to grant.

If you are not familiar with what these people who say they want to "help" us have done in the past, make an effort to learn. It will curl your hair.

They have a new MEC Chairman now and things may get better. However, once more, that is because it is in their best interest to have better relations at this time. Their current Chairman is a lot smarter than the last one, and knows that you catch more flies with honey. However, make no mistake, we are still thought of as "flies" that should be caught.

He "supported" (not approved like GL says - he has no authority to "approve" or disapprove) the proposed merger between ASA/CMR. Wow! Such a deal. A merger that is of highly questionable benefit to either ASA or Comair pilots, and of no particular danger or benefit to Delta pilots. In other words a zero-cost propaganda opportunity. Meanwhile his MEC supports the idea that we should take a pay cut (although he does not himself), because we need to "share the pain" of his pilots' excessive costs. On that, he is conveniently silent, in public.

He is also silent on the black-ball threat directed at CMR pilots that the General (and others) shout to the heavens every day. He has not retracted the threats made by his predecessor, at least not in public (and I predict that he will not)

He himself negotiated an agreement that limited our 70-seat jets and forced their distribution among all DCI carriers. He personally negotiated the limits on our 50-seat flying. His MEC is currently seeking to use our flying as a bargaining chip in his negotiations.

As long as the Delta pilots continue to "use" the future of Comair and ASA pilots as bargaining chips, you and every other CMR/ASA pilot should come to the realization that our "friends" do not reside in Atlanta.

It would indeed have been nice if furloughed Delta pilots could have found a temporary home at Comair. The responsibility for why they have not rests soley at the hands of the Delta MEC.

The General claims and loudly resents his fellow furloughed pilots are being used as what he calls "pawns". So do I, we just have a different perspective as to who is doing the using. GL thinks it is Comair pilots, I think it is the Delta MEC.

Surplus resents with equal fervor the fact that ALL Comair pilots and their futures have been used as "pawns" to further the agenda and interests of the Delta MEC for a decade. So I guess the General and I are even. If and when the Delta MEC chooses to change its politics and agenda with respect to us, I'll be more than happy to join in the call for a cease fire. Until they do, the struggle to protect our interests will probably continue.

Don't worry too much about what the General or the others write on this board, it is relatively mild. Read what they write on the ALPA board, read what they publish in The Roar and the Widget, official publications of the Delta MEC and Council 44. Go back and read what they have been saying to each other, about us, for the last ten years. Then you will know what they really think. This dispute did not begin with the currently furloughed Delta pilots. If the General or anyone else thinks that it did, they just can't see the forest for the trees.
 
There is no need to make statements that are not factual to placate General Lee
I know, but I thought I would try and make nice. I've been pretty hard on the Beaver lately.

Nobody would have turned down a staple---
Spank her would have. There are a lot of folks here who don't meet the standard you know.

AMF
 
Hey XCRMENT,
Allow me to translate from previous. Translation of "the line forms behind TK" = "staple"...and from that day on, hiring qualifications would have to be the same...if there is every hiring again...raised or lowered depending on your perspective. Anything else is something for nothing.

Your comard in arms...
 
Hey XCRMENT
Good one!
Allow me to translate from previous. Translation of "the line forms behind TK" = "staple"...and from that day on, hiring qualifications would have to be the same...if there is every hiring again...raised or lowered depending on your perspective. Anything else is something for nothing.
?
 
XCIBTINST,

Spank her would have. There are a lot of folks here who don't meet the standard you know.

Hence...my come back. "Line forms behind TK" = staple. Fast game...you have to keep up with the tour.

What is the record for longest (sts) thread?
 
Spanksalot,

I am slow it's true, but could you please humor me and explain it to us all just one more time. I promise to pay very close attention this time.

AMF
 
Let me explain it slowly for you.

No one will be put on the Delta list above me. The line forms for new hires/staples/flow through's behind me when we starting hiring again in 2020.
 
Bottom of the list, YOUCH! Maybe three thousand-plus from the bottom soon. Hopefully, there can be something that works for everyone.
 
Surplus1, well said.

701EV
 
Surplus,

Seems like this argument comes around again in cycles...

I doubt there would be such an "outcry" about Comair's furlough-hiring policy if ASA HAD THE SAME POLICY - but it doesn't... Why should ASA accept DAL furloughees and not require resignation of seniority number and Comair not accept them? Therein lies a lot of the anger related to the situation. If Comair and ASA had a UNIFORM policy, then I doubt the level of angst would be the same. As you would expect, this is a sensitive issue for everyone and there are many variables involved...

As you well know, many precedents have already been set by major airlines and how they handle their furloughed pilots... UAL furloughees follow a j4j policy (and its partners are not even wholly-owned), Continental furloughees migrate down to COEX and take Captain positions, USAirways has a j4j policy with its wholly-owned subsidiaries. And yet, furloughed DAL pilots can't even get the lowest FO positions (bottom seniority) with a wholly-owned subsidiary... Catch my drift? If your own position would not even be impacted (given that any furloughees would be the lowest seniority), why would you care so much?

I am not a Delta employee, but a lot of my Delta friends can't seem to understand this point. ASA accepts furloughee pilots with no restrictions, Comair doesn't. Both ASA and Comair are owned by Delta - sister companies. Why the difference? That's the point...

This argument will go on forever I am sure (and the General will continue to defend the furloughees)...
 
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