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DL MEC Rumor???

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100LL... Again! said:
Not to further inflames this discussion, but upon reflection, this is how I understand it (correct me if am wrong):

I like your post. Your thought process is rational and you are reasoning rather than attacking. Even if we disagree on some issues, that is the kind of thinking that promotes progress toward resolution of disputes. "Who's on first" is not the primary concern. In my thinking, a mutually agreed solution to our differences is far more important than the mechanics of how we get there.

If it really was a blackmail position, by upping the terms, it indicated a willingness to deal, but with better terms. In other words, when the 'threat' was made, the CMR MEC should have backed away completely and not offered to deal. Is this what happened? That is my understanding.

I would not use the term "blackmail" for I think that is too strident. Let's just say that it was overtly made clear before the meeting that an outcome contrary to your wishes would have serious consequences for us. Not quite an ultimatum, but bordering on one.

From my perspective, both the threat of "going public" and the proffer of preferential hiring were a quid pro quo or carrot and stick approach by the DMEC that should not have been necessary or made. It came across as an offer to "buy" our cooperation with a rubber check coupled with retaliation should we decide not to "sell".

That is very, very, different from a request for assistance. It opens the meeting in a defensive bargaining atmosphere, when there should, in my opinion, have been no bargaining at all.

When you begin such a meeting with an "offer to deal, or else", it should not be surprising if the details of your offer are questioned and the other parties needs are expressed.

You came to negotiate, when in fact all you needed to do was pick up the phone and say, "we need some help". Instead what we read was ... we want something from you but its not a favor or help; this is what we'll pay you for it; you have to take a check; you can't deposit it; if you don't take the deal we're offering you we'll fry you in the political press.

When we ask you if your check will ever be funded, you tell us that perhaps it will, but only after you've paid your military buddies first. When we tell you that we have needs that we'd like you to consider, you get angry, remind us of what you'll do if we don't sell and threaten to leave. We respond by saying that we'll keep the door open if you have anything further, but you are not asked to stay. You leave in a huff and when you get home, you promptly make good on your threat.

If the CMR MEC was not attempting to deal but was only indicating that it would take a true partnership between groups before any agreement could be reached, then I see their point.

I was not in the meeting, but I would say that we were attempting to deal. Why? Because you did not come asking for help, you came with a quid pro quo. We responded in kind. We did not like your quid pro quo and you did not like our response.

Help or favors you can get for nothing. If you come to negotiate then yes, it will take a true partnership before any agreement can be reached. We will adress your concerns but you must also address our concerns. Agreements are reached when mutual interests are placed in reasonable balance.

Favors and help are grants that come without preconditions or paybacks.

Bottom line: The situation can't be judged without knowing the true intent of the parties to the discussion.

In reality the situation does not need to be judged. Judgement or demands for judgement seek to impose blame. It is fine to determine the probable cause of a failure however, if we focus on afixing blame the probable cause will remain hidden and the problem unresolved. The "accident" is likely to repeat itself.

Either we want a solution to our differences or we do not. If we do, talks should begin without preconditions. When the parties concerns are addressed to the mutual satisfaction of both an agreement will be reached. Neither party can be pressured or forced into an unsatisfactory accord.

Now that you have a new CEO of your union, we have another opportunity to resume discussions. We need to put the "bad blood" behind us, simply because it is in our best interest to do so and both will benefit.

It is difficult to reach agreement in an atmosphere of mistrust. Just look at what happened in our strike. That was totally uncalled for, yet because the Company believed it could intimidate and browbeat, negotiations collapsed. It cost the Company hundreds of millions of dollars and the alienation of thousands of employees, to save a relatively miniscule sum. If there was ever a case of being "penny wise and pound foolish" that was it. So why did it happen? Not because of money. It happened because their egos replaced their common sense. We could not come to trust each other so, instead of opting for mutual agreement, we opted for mutual destruction and came very close to achieving it.

Our pilot groups should not follow a similar course of action. The danger of mutual destruction is far too great. While detente is not the desired solution, even that is better than nuclear war. The objective should be peace.

The industry waters are full of greater danger than ever before and we are both in peril. Leaders should recognize that "united we stand, divided we fall."

Regards,
 
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Surplus1,

Well written and said. Bravo
 
Surplus1,

No offense, but I think you "win" your arguments because you write such long responses that people give up reading them half way through and say to themselves, "he must be correct---he is writing sooooo much...." By now I think I know what your stance is---The Delta MEC has screwed us all over--even our furloughs---and we need to come together to fight the good fight---together. If that really is your stance, I agree with most of it-----except I am still peeved that your company (management, pilots, whoever) didn't help my furloughed friends when they needed help, like your sister airline ASA did. But, I too am fairly impressed with your writing endurance---and suggest you pull in a part time job for 'The New Yorker" or some other classy magazine. It might just TRIPLE your current salary....Take care.

Bye Bye--General Lee;) :rolleyes:
 
General,
I do not know Surplus1 at all since we are at the different companies. I do believe his posts are well thought out and written very well, as are yours. You both bring up very valid points and topics for discussion. I thank and comment both of you. I wish ALL of the other players would see that there can be much light at the end of the whipsaw tunnel if we all step back and take a breath.
Would it be possible to start at the beginning? Could your new MEC chairman ask the Cmr chair about the situation with the furloughs? Just a 'Hey, let's go have a beer and see what we can come up with for them'. LEAVE EVERYTHING else out of that meeting, EVERYTHING. Nothing about this or that or what about me.
Surplus1, could your chair start at the begining? New slate? Just the one topic only?
I am just a bottom half of the list ATR Captain but it seems to me there should be some way - even just one topic or question at a time and maybe we can get back on an even keel. My agenda? I want to have faith in being able to keep my job, have a decent QOL and not worry about it.
Thats all.......
 
ATRdrivr,

I too want to just move on and feel better about my job and hope the whole corporation does better in the future. I don't know if the MEC chairs can come together again, although our MEC Chair has changed since that original meeting, and I think there is better dialog between him and Lawson---since they did discuss the possible merger between ASA/Comair. I don't know if anything else has been brought up about helping our furloughs---but the help from ASA and Chataqua has been noted apparently. (in meeting transcripts that I have read---LEC meetings) In other words, we all appreciate your help at ASA (and Chataqua) ---and that will be remembered. I personally hope we can resolve this current negotiating problem, give some pay cuts, and move on. Take care and enjoy that ATR---I have jumped on it in the cokpit and thought it was a nice ride upfront----and I might try to jump to PFN or VPS in March or early April. Take care.

Bye Bye---General Lee;) :cool:
 
Surplus 1,

Don't mean to come across as rude. I just have to say this for not just me but for other flightinfo.com readers. In the future can you shorten your responses? I use to read them, but I've given up. I now scroll through your 2 or even three responses in a row. You have to do 2 or 3 because Flightinfo won't let you say that much in one reply!

Many of us that come on this site, don't want to live on flightinfo for more than 5 minutes a day. We want to just come on and see what is the latest rumor or which pilot group hates which one today.

Most of the posters on flightinfo write short, sweet, and to the point. Please can you try this in the future, and maybe I'll read your posts again. We're all throroughly impressed with your mastery of the english language, but can you summarize just a little!?

I think many people on here agree with me. Just look at what General Lee just said. He's right! Most people give up half way through and just scroll down through your posts. I also think he's right and you could make more money in writing! When I do read your posts they are really well thought out and impressive. Keep posting, just shorter please:)

Jet
 
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Jetflyer,

I think you and I agree that Surplus1 is passionate about his posts. That is good---to a point. But, we know he means well overall.

And, believe it or not---I spend a lot more than 5 minutes per day on this board when I am home, and that drives my wife crazy. But, I too am passionate about this business.

Bye Bye--General Lee:rolleyes: ;)
 
Life must be tough reading at a sixth grade level

General Lee said:
Surplus1,

No offense, but I think you "win" your arguments because you write such long responses that people give up reading them half way through...

jetflyer said:
Surplus 1,

I think many people on here agree with me. Just look at what General Lee just said. He's right! Most people give up half way through and just scroll down through your posts.

I'm sure "most people" on Flightinfo.com are just thrilled that the attention deficit disordered have decided to "represent" the group on the non issue of the length of someone's postings.

There's enough bandwidth for everybody including the painfully repetitous dogma of General Lee so don't come around here pretending to speak for the majority while ridiculing someone's attention to detail.

I can assure you that your reading comprehension will improve significantly if you pratice reading but if you don't have time for that, keep scrolling and stop trying to deny me and others of a good read on the pretext that you're just too lazy.
 
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jetflyer said:
Surplus 1,

Don't mean to come across as rude. I just have to say this for not just me but for other flightinfo.com readers. In the future can you shorten your responses? I use to read them, but I've given up. I now scroll through your 2 or even three responses in a row. You have to do 2 or 3 because Flightinfo won't let you say that much in one reply!

Think of my posts as a AFM, not a Check List or a QRH. I'm sorry they're too long for you and suspect that has a lot to do with your not having a particular investment in the issues I talk about. When there are two or three in a row, that is because I am writing to 2 or 3 different individuals. I confess readily that I am not good at "sound bites", especially with respect to important (to me) issues.

Many of us that come on this site, don't want to live on flightinfo for more than 5 minutes a day. We want to just come on and see what is the latest rumor or which pilot group hates which one today.

My posts are not directed to those interested in rumor or the exchange of barbs and name calling. If that is your interest, what I write is not for your benefit. Perhaps you've noticed that I seldom write in more than one or two threads and almost never about trivia. I have virtually zero interest in rumors.

Most of the posters on flightinfo write short, sweet, and to the point. Please can you try this in the future, and maybe I'll read your posts again. We're all throroughly impressed with your mastery of the english language, but can you summarize just a little!?

You do have me on the defensive. I think my posts are very "to the point" however, short and sweet they are not. I make no apology for the use of the language. I only wish he more of my countrymen actuall spoke (or wrote) in english. I will try to summarize more, but admit I have difficulty doing that with complex issues.

I think many people on here agree with me. Just look at what General Lee just said. He's right! Most people give up half way through and just scroll down through your posts. I also think he's right and you could make more money in writing! When I do read your posts they are really well thought out and impressive. Keep posting, just shorter please:)

Jet

I appreciate your comments and the General's too, Jet. I will try to improve (bet you can't tell from this post :D ), but may not succeed. I'm not nearly in the category of The New Yorker, not even close to being good enough for that, I have no interest whatever in the in the likes of the National Enquirer. That sort of leaves me between the rock and the hard place on this forum. I'm useless in the cartoon category. which is why you don't see me in many threads.
 
I don't mind reading the long posts but my mouth gets tired and...uhh...what was all this about again?
 
N2264J,

Sometimes the truth hurts, but I try to keep it short and sweet. Maybe if I repeat enough times you will see "the light."


Surplus1,

I think your last try was great--I actually read all of it. I think you know I am just "ribbing" you a little, and I think most of the time you have good opinions---even if they are a tad bit bitter sometimes. And, forget the National Enquirer----I think you absolutely should go for "Star Magazine" or "Soap Opera Digest."

Bye Bye--General Lee:rolleyes: ;) :cool: :D
 
Sound bites are tyranny.

If one insn't willing to slog through a little text, one may find oneself less than fully informed.

We have become a nation of the sound bite.

Platitudes substitute nicely for reasoning, hm?



Okay, okay, off soapbox.
 
!!!

I read with passion, and hang on ever word that Surplus writes as well as the General. I learn a great deal and then use that knowledge to influence my reps as the issues pertain to my company.
 
Hey Gen

I have jumped on it in the cokpit and thought it was a nice ride upfront----and I might try to jump to PFN or VPS in March or early April.

Even though we don't always agree, since you may come down to my neck of the woods (VPS), PM me and I will take you and your family out in my boat. Great place for boating, diving, and fishing. I promise, I won't talk Delta politics. P.S. I am pretty sure a friend of mine (Delta furloughee) got hired yesterday. He gets his official notification in the next week or so. ;)
 
Tim,

I will---I usually go to Panama City Beach with my wife (and her bikini) in late March (kinda cold) or mid April----so we sometimes have to non-rev to VPS.....

Your friend---the Delta furlough---was hired at ASA? Good---I have told my own friends to apply---I think it is great that ASA has helped these people out.

As far as talking politics---believe it or not I want us all to do well, and I wouldn't mind voting yes on certain pay cuts (around 20% with the May raise), and giving you some relief on extra 70 seaters---which could help bring some more of our furloughs to the bottom of your list. I really want this whole airline to go forward again---and get everyone back and then get you guys on if you want to.....


Thanks for the invite---and I will see what the loads are and maybe PM you.


Bye Bye---General Lee:)
 
Of the 1100 or so DAL Furlough's how many have been hired at ASA?
 
FLB717,

Good question. I know two people that got on fairly early and they enjoy it. I would guess 50-100 with more hoping for an interview?? One of these threads stated from someone at ASA that there was a "pile" of applications from Delta Furloughs---but I don't know if that is true or not....

Bye Bye---General Lee:rolleyes:
 

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