DL MEC Rumor???

[CarjCapt]

Heavy Set:

Have you ever heard of "Whipsaw"

Delta Management is loving the angst that they caused by not making the policy the same at ASA and CMR. They want the three groups to be as angry as possible at each other instead of themselves.

And, of course, we are our own worst enemy as well.

 

[FLB717]

Surplus1

That was a very informative and accurate post. You points and proof is right on. But you did forget one thing, during the CMR Strike DALPA guys did not fly struck work, but they did increase aircraft size and frequency. Can ya feel the love, can ya?


General and TBKane,

I feel for you General because I do fully believe you see the world as a double-breasted owned world. If your MEC has any power or stones why can they not put pressure on Delta (Reid) to have guys go to CMR? What makes you think that 1500 lowly “Regional” pilots have any more pull that 6000 “Major” pilots? The answer is they DOESN’T have the ability any more than you. Delta wants whip-saw and anger among the pilots so they can bend every one of you over and have you ALL work for McDonald wages. (hirer than pre-strike CMR new hire wage) So drop the us vs. them stuff, that’s for both sides to work collectively. Will it happen? No, because pilots are the best at looking out for number one (themselves).

I find it interesting that DALPA stands firm that the companies are all different, but the same when it benefits them. My answer is one list. A CMR-ASA merger based on DOH and with a staple below the last displaced Delta pilot. With Delta furloughs taking new-hire status at DCI (ASA-CMR) until recall. Its not perfect but it seems the most rational as I smoke my crack pipe waiting for rational thought to form at Delta et al.

 

[michael707767]

surplus1, I want to correct a couple of errors in your account. John Malone was indeed the negotiator who negotiated limits on the 70 seatsers. But, no where in the DAL contract does it state that they have to be spread out among all DCI carriers. DCI is allowed 57 70 seates. They can all go to one airline, or they can be spread out. Delta decides who gets em and how they are distributed. No one from the DAL MEC ever forced Delta to spread them around, they did not care.

Also, while it is true no one from the MECs of CMR or ASA ever asked for DOH, many individual pilots from CMR and ASA were out flying jumpseats, or whereever, saying they wanted DOH or they would sue. I heard it myself. The DAL never once said that the ASA/CMR MECs wante DOH. They did however, acccurately point out that if the ASA and CMR pilots could not agree with the DAL pilot on how to integrate, it would ultimately be decided by an arbitrator. It is very unlikely that an arbitrator would have given DOH, but he could have, and that was the whole point.

 

[Heavy Set]

Why is OK that Continental furloughees can get Captain slots at COEX while Delta furloughees can't even get lowest-seniority FO slots at both of its wholly-owned regionals (and not impact anyone senior to them)? Sure, they are two different companies, but the CONCEPT should be acceptable - right? Instead, the Delta furloughees, many of whom have been out of work since 9/11, are pawns in a political game...

How is it that ASA can have one policy and Comair another - and yet both are wholly-owned subsidiaries of Delta? It really doesn't make much sense...

 

[sleepy]

Why is OK that Continental furloughees can get Captain slots at COEX while Delta furloughees can't even get lowest-seniority FO slots at both of its wholly-owned regionals (and not impact anyone senior to them)? Sure, they are two different companies, but the CONCEPT should be acceptable - right? Instead, the Delta furloughees, many of whom have been out of work since 9/11, are pawns in a political game...

How is it that ASA can have one policy and Comair another - and yet both are wholly-owned subsidiaries of Delta? It really doesn't make much sense...

I can answer your first question. Because COEX has a flow-thru agreement with CO. DAL has no such agreement with ASA or Comair.

Your DAL furloughed pilots can and do get some FO slots at ASA, provided they can pass the interview (some can't).

I don't know why Comair won't hire furloughed DAL pilots. It doesn't make sense to me.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Why is OK that Continental furloughees can get Captain slots at COEX while Delta furloughees can't even get lowest-seniority FO slots at both of its wholly-owned regionals (and not impact anyone senior to them)? Sure, they are two different companies, but the CONCEPT should be acceptable - right? Instead, the Delta furloughees, many of whom have been out of work since 9/11, are pawns in a political game...

You do know that Continental and AA were giving mainline seniority numbers to RJ captains right?? That was the trade off. (I know its a lot more, but that is a HUGE reason) It's a two way street.

The concept mainline Delta came up with was "Lets not hurt our military buds in their bid for mainline jobs". You may be pawns now but your union made this call when they thought you were in the driver's seat. Now you have to live with the consequences.

I do feel sorry for the occasional Delta furloughee that wants to move on and can't get hired anywhere because of it. Having Delta furloughee on your resume limits your aviation options big time. But most Delta furloughees I've met are happily pursuing other interests, smug in the knowledge they have the "Best" airline job in the world to go back to. Which guy are you?

Before flaming, realize I have no axe to grind. Just observing.

 

[Freddie Spencer]

Genral,

I heard that APA cut $70000 check to Comair's family fund, but all the got from you was $2200, any truth to that?

 

[surplus1]

Surplus,

Seems like this argument comes around again in cycles...

I doubt there would be such an "outcry" about Comair's furlough-hiring policy if ASA HAD THE SAME POLICY - but it doesn't... Why should ASA accept DAL furloughees and not require resignation of seniority number and Comair not accept them? Therein lies a lot of the anger related to the situation. If Comair and ASA had a UNIFORM policy, then I doubt the level of angst would be the same. As you would expect, this is a sensitive issue for everyone and there are many variables involved...

I am no expert on ASA policies. However if you want to know "WHY" there is a difference in this particular policy, I can offer an opinion and some history. Do with it whatever you choose.

Delta Air Lines, Inc. has chosen to permit the respective operating management of ASA and Comair to set certain of their own policies. Whom to hire happens to be one of them.

If ASA had a policy requiring the resignation of seniority at other airlines as a precondition of employment, then ASA management changed the policy to accomodate furloughed Delta pilots (ASA pilots had nothing whatever to do with that change, they merely did not oppose it.) After ASA was acquired by Delta, their previous management was replaced, with long term Delta employees filling those positions. So, the current ASA management are all really Delta people. Delta people changed their policy to accommodate Delta people.

Comair's hiring policy regarding seniority resignation was established long before Comair was acquired by Delta. At first, there was no such policy. Then EAL went on strike. At the request of the Comair union, the company agreed to hire unemployed Eastern pilots. A substantial number applied and were hired. At the very first opportunity, the majority (not all) left without notice to accept positions at such nondiscript carriers as Braniff 2, and Midway Airlines (the old Midway) leaving us high and dry. In response management implemented the policy. It had no effect on situations such as the EAL scenario, but it did block the hiring of furloughed pilots from other airlines, unless they chose to resign their prior seniority. That policy remains in place today.

After the acquisition by Delta, Comair management was not replaced, it was retained. There are no old time Delta employees running Comair. Therefore the people that are running Comair have no sense whatever of any special obligation or loyalty to Delta pilots. Delta pilots are not viewed as their "former bretheren". Comair management is naturally silent on the subject of disputes between Delta and Comair pilots, but that doesn't mean that they are unaware of the treatment Comair pilots have received at the hand of the Delta MEC.

Delta pilots maintain that Comair is a "separate" company and we are NOT employees of Delta Air Lines. Therefore if follows that Delta is a "separate" company and Delta pilots are not entitled to any special privileges at Comair by virtue of their employment at Delta. Comair management is naturally and logically interested in the welfare of the the Company they manage and that comes way ahead of the interests of Delta pilots. Hiring 600 Delta pilots that already despise Comair and wish it did not exist, all of whom would leave the next day if they could is, plain and simple bad business. Therefore, Comair management is not going to change its policy unless directed to do so by senior Delta management. This Comair pilot sees no reason why they should.

This CMR pilot supports the decision of his MEC not to intervene. There is no reason why we should submit to threats that come in the same breath as alleged requests for assistance and coupled with "promises" that obviously cannot be honored. Especially so when the source is a group of people that have demonstrated, repeatedly, that they "hate our guts" and want nothing to do with us. They've been telling us that and showing us that, both with words and actions for ten (10) years. Why should we bend over backward for them, because they think we should?

As you well know, many precedents have already been set by major airlines and how they handle their furloughed pilots... UAL furloughees follow a j4j policy (and its partners are not even wholly-owned), Continental furloughees migrate down to COEX and take Captain positions, USAirways has a j4j policy with its wholly-owned subsidiaries. And yet, furloughed DAL pilots can't even get the lowest FO positions (bottom seniority) with a wholly-owned subsidiary... Catch my drift? If your own position would not even be impacted (given that any furloughees would be the lowest seniority), why would you care so much?

You should know, if you don't, that what you call the "precedent" of J4J set by USAirways and imposed by ALPA on the USAG regional subsidiaries and subcontractors, will not ever be recognized as ligitimate by Comair pilots and will not be imposed upon us by ALPA or anyone else. No such "precedent" will ever set foot on this property. Comair pilots will not sell their seniority to the pilots of another airline for any promise of growth, nor will we ever permit the pilots of another airline to acquire super seniority at our airline through any such scheme as J4J.

Comair pilots will not allow the pilots of another airline to take 50%, 10% or 1/2 of 1% of our Captain vacancies from CMR First Officers. We will not bow to pressure from ALPA, and if the Company or its parent should attempt that, we will use all legal means to defend the seniority guaranteed by our contract. "J4J" is a dirty word on this property.

The "arrangement" between CAL and COEX is the result of a "flow-through" protocol to which they both agreed. That was their choice.

Comair pilots have repeatedly indicated that they have no interest in that type of an agreement, with anyone.
A flow through agreement that puts 1 Comair pilot on the bottom of another list, for every 3 pilots employed by the other carrier, (and requiring "interviews" to flow up) and then gives ALL of that carrier's pilots the right to flow back to the top of the Comair list is not acceptable. That type of agreement benefits the senior pilots (at Comair) at the expense of the junior pilots, and that dog won't hunt.

If we flow up to the bottom there can be no ratio with folks hired off the street and no "interviews". Additionally, the flow back must be to the bottom. Bottom-to-bottom, one-for-one. Anything else simply makes our junior pilots furlough fodder for the other group. It makes no sense to us. We have no problem with the choice of the CAL/COEX group, it's just "different strokes for different folks."

The UAL J4J is very different from the USAG program. However, there are problems with that too. Namely, it provides for higher pay for First Officers that come from UAL. Our contract does not permit a newly hired pilot to receive higher pay for the same position held by his senior. Comair's senior pilots have an obligation to protect the interests of Comair's junior pilots that is no less than their own. I believe that we will continue to do that as we have in the past. If the "higher pay" component of the UAL procedure were not there, it is possible that such a deal might be doable. However, do not expect us to accept some "deal" negotiated by an external pilot group, with an external company, without our consent, in violation of our contract. For something like the UAL deal to work at Comair, it would first have to be agreed between our two MEC's before it could be agreed with our Company. Otherwise, it will be rejected.

What I am trying to tell you can perhaps be stated in more simple terms: We do not accept any "precedents" established by the court of biased bargaining. There is no reason under the sun why a pilot from another airline should receive higher pay than our own pilots. That is absurd in the extreme.

I am not a Delta employee, but a lot of my Delta friends can't seem to understand this point. ASA accepts furloughee pilots with no restrictions, Comair doesn't. Both ASA and Comair are owned by Delta - sister companies. Why the difference? That's the point...

I know that you are not a Delta pilot. Perhaps I am wrong, but I think your "friends" at Delta understand very well, they just will not admit it. They have made themselves believe that they have "rights" at Comair that are different from other pilots at other airlines. What is more, they also believe they are entitled to such rights. Comair pilots do not share that view.

Your Delta "friends" seek to have Comair pilots consider their interests when it is convenient for them. In those circumstances we become their "brothers". At the same time when it is not convenient for them, we are regarded as interlopers that need to be expunged before we tarnish their family. Tell your friends that either we are separate or we are not separate. They can't have it both ways. They're smart folks, they can understand that. If they choose not to, well they'll have to deal with it. They made the bed.

This argument will go on forever I am sure (and the General will continue to defend the furloughees)...

I support the General in his defense of the furloughees. That's a great thing to do. What I disagree with is his method. Good landing seldom result from bad approaches. Threats of black-balling Comair pilots will do nothing to help the furloughed pilots. That only serves to widen the chasm.

We need to work together to accomplish whatever we jointly decide is in our mutual best interest. Unilateral posturing will not produce progress.

 

[surplus1]

surplus1, I want to correct a couple of errors in your account. John Malone was indeed the negotiator who negotiated limits on the 70 seatsers. But, no where in the DAL contract does it state that they have to be spread out among all DCI carriers. DCI is allowed 57 70 seates. They can all go to one airline, or they can be spread out. Delta decides who gets em and how they are distributed. No one from the DAL MEC ever forced Delta to spread them around, they did not care.

With all due respect you are saying exactly what I said. In this case there was no error on my part.

Granted your contract does not say that they "have to be spread" in those words. It "permits" a total of 57 70-seaters for all DCI carriers of which there are 5. They can indeed go all to one or be spread among them. Your contract encourages the parent corporation to whipsaw the connection carriers for the 70-seat equipment. Were you deliberately attempting to put a wedge between ASA and Comair pilots or was it just an "accidental coincidence"?

You are unhappily alleging that the Company already whipsaws us against you by giving us "your flying" (which in fact is not yours at all), yet you intentionally create a scenario that invites them to whipsaw us (DCI) against each other. With friends like that, who needs enemies?

Sorry, I should remember what you said and take you at your word "they (DMEC) did not care".

Additionally, you ignore the fact that Comair itself had orders and options for ninety (90) 70-seaters by itself, before Delta bought Comair. Thanks to your "contract", we lose no less than 33 and no more than ALL of those aircraft. Do you expect us to consider that a favor?

Your contract, illegally negotiated by ALPA, has deprived Comair pilots of no less than 330 promotions and potentially as many as 900 promotions, costing us literally millions of dollars in lost income over the life of our carreers at Comair. There will be no "thank you's" for what you and ALPA have done until it is undone.

Also, while it is true no one from the MECs of CMR or ASA ever asked for DOH, many individual pilots from CMR and ASA were out flying jumpseats, or whereever, saying they wanted DOH or they would sue. I heard it myself. The DAL never once said that the ASA/CMR MECs wante DOH. They did however, acccurately point out that if the ASA and CMR pilots could not agree with the DAL pilot on how to integrate, it would ultimately be decided by an arbitrator. It is very unlikely that an arbitrator would have given DOH, but he could have, and that was the whole point.

The gentleman to whom I responded said that his "ALPA reps" had asked for DOH. They did not. I am sure that there were a few, I don't know the number exactly but I do know it was very small minority, who made stupid statements about DOH. Certainly not more than a handful at Comair, who fall into the a$$hole category.

Yes, if we could not agree it would have gone to arbitration. That happens to be ALPA Merger Policy, to which all ALPA airlines have allegedly agreed. It develops however that the Merger Policy does not apply to regional carriers and that some people in ALPA, i.e., the Delta MEC, believe that it should not.

That stance of descrimination is confirmed in the Delta PWA by a provision that specifically exempts a regional carrier from the merger clause of your PWA. The prejudice is patently overt and ALPA, maker of the contract, openly supports the apartheid.

The idea that an arbitrator "might" or "could" have awarded DOH to ASA/CMR pilots in an intergration of seniority with Delta, is absurd in the extreme and you all know very well that it is.

The granting of such an arbitration award would clearly violate the Merger Policy which speciffically prohibits a windfall at the expense of either party to a merger of any kind. DOH seniority integration of ASA/CMR w/DAL would be a windfall of such magnitude as to render such an award not only improbable, but impossible.

If challenged, and it most certainly would be, such a blatant violation of the Merger Policy by any arbitrator would not stand for a day. Even if it somehow did, it could be rendered moot by a withdrawal of the mainline carrier from the union.

It is not DOH integration that you feared. What you feared was the possibility that even one regional pilot might come out senior to one Delta pilot. To avoid that you would eagerly place a captain with 25 years of seniority below a first office with six months longevity. You couldn't tolerate even the thought of that, so you used your power in the union to block an obviously applicable Merger Policy that, ironically, was principally authored (in its current and deliberately neutered format) by the DMEC.

The crafting of that policy change (made in 1998) coupled with the simultaneous neutering ot the Alter Ego Policy was no accident. I charge openly that it was specifically done in that manner with the intent of precluding a possible merger between a "regional" carrier and a "mainline" carrier.

The people that promoted those policy changes knew very well that the CBA's of every mainline carrier included provisions that would force a merger in the event another mainline carrier was acquired. That those same mainline CBA's did not specifically prohibt such a merger and therefore contained a loophole that would permit a regional to launch a PID request and get it was not lost on the leaders of our ignoble institution. To avoid that possibility, the Merger Policy was altered deliberately so that only the mainline dominated Executive Council could ever determine the applicability of the policy itself.

Claiming that there was "insufficient operational integration" between the carriers in question is almost as rediculous as your alleged fear of an unfavorable DOH integration award, and you know that too.

Well, they got what they wanted.

 

[Heavy Set]

Surplus 1,

I appreciate your passion and your dedication to protecting Comair pilots rights. I really do. You articulate your points very well. That being said, how can you be sure that your statements represent the views of most Comair pilots?

I have had candid conversations with Comair pilots (many of whom were junior) who would absolutely disagree with you and welcomed Delta furloughees to the VERY BOTTOM of the seniority list. They viewed positive relations with Delta pilots as preferrable to creating a further rift and using the furloughees as bargaining chips. It is my impression that many Comair pilots would be interested in joining DAL in the long-term (whenever they start hiring off the street again - probably 2010 or so) and wanted that option to exist for them. Speaking with my Delta buddies, this is still a very sore issue and will likely continue to be so - although ASA seems to be viewed in a much more positive light because of their willingness to help DAL furloughees in their time of need.

Now, I do not know if the hiring practices will be impacted by this rift - I am not a part of the process and never will be. I have no idea what will happen. It is clear that this entire issue is very contentious and both sides appear unwilling to compromise. The idea of "one list" has been discussed over-and-over. DAL management would never go for it because it would decrease its bargaining power - it seems very unlikely to ever happen...

That being said, it is my hope that the Comair position is not being driven by a small group of power-hungry, bitter, super-senior Comair pilots at the expense of a much larger group of junior pilots who may well disagree with their position and actually welcome Delta furloughees at the very bottom of the seniority list...

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

Surplus 1,

That being said, it is my hope that the Comair position is not being driven by a small group of power-hungry, bitter, super-senior Comair pilots at the expense of a much larger group of junior pilots who may well disagree with their position and actually welcome Delta furloughees at the very bottom of the seniority list...

This is exactly what is happening. It's true. The truly ironic thing is that I think we will be finding ourselves, in the not too distant future, part of a MESA conglomerate. I wish I could see the look on their faces the day it is announced. Justice, a painful lesson sometimes.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[michael707767]

You are unhappily alleging that the Company already whipsaws us against you by giving us "your flying" (which in fact is not yours at all), yet you intentionally create a scenario that invites them to whipsaw us (DCI) against each other. With friends like that, who needs enemies?

Claiming that there was "insufficient operational integration" between the carriers in question is almost as rediculous as your alleged fear of an unfavorable DOH integration award, and you know that too.

Well, they got what they wanted.

I disagree. All DAL code flying belongs to the Delta pilots. It's in our contract. Management agreed to it. It's not disputable.

What is operational integration? Define it, because nothing is written down which defines it. ASA CMR and DAL do not share operating certificates, do not fly any of the same aircraft types, do not share dispatch services, do not share scheduling, do not share training, etc, etc. So, do not know that .

 

[~~~^~~~]

The Comair pilots don't run Comair, Delta management does.

The Delta pilots have more power over DCI flying than the Comair pilots and the ASA pilots combined. Why don't you ask the Delta MEC - why they made the decision not to acquire all the airplanes, all the jobs and all the flying? Could the answer be that the senior pilots at Delta simply don't want to give anything to help their junior brothers? After all the "I got mine - screw you" attitude seems to run pretty deep at the most highly paid airline in the world.

You already have a contract in place that puts CRJ700's at mainline once we get our last 11 airplanes this year. It just sounds like you are barking up the wrong tree.... Tell Delta you want more RJ's....

 

[~~~^~~~]

I disagree. All DAL code flying belongs to the Delta pilots. It's in our contract. Management agreed to it.

Your are wrong. Your MEC sold flying it did not want in exchange for higher pay rates. Once you sell something it no longer belongs to you.

What is operational integration? Define it, because nothing is written down which defines it. ASA CMR and DAL do not share operating certificates, do not fly any of the same aircraft types, do not share dispatch services, do not share scheduling, do not share training, etc, etc. So, do not know that .

Again, wrong. The Delta MEC took the definition of "Operational Integration" out in 1988. But if you can not see that there is more "operational integration" between ASA and Delta, or Comair and Delta, than ASA and Comair, you just don't know "operational integration" when you see it.

* According to your scope we will operate the same aircraft types if Delta places 58 CRJ700's in operation.

* According to the IRS, ASA and Delta are the same employer. None of the Delta / ASA employees, including pilots, had to roll over their 401K, or retirements, when coming to "work at ASA."

* We are completely financially integrated. ASA and Comair have no risk management, or insurance programs, separate from Delta.

* ASA and Comair have no scheduling ability, no ticket stock, computer resources (including crew scheduling) are Delta technology operations, housed on Delta's property.

* ASA and Comair's fleet are Delta aircraft according to annual reports and other financial documents.

Bottom line, when my airplane replaces yours - flying the same passengers, we are alter ego air carriers - that, my friend, is the only "operational integration" that matters.

It is in our mutual best interest to end all of Delta's alter ego airlines and return all Delta flying to Delta pilots. Crazy as it is, the reason why that has not happened, is the Delta pilots' MEC.

The Delta pilots' MEC is like a thirsty white man refusing to drink from a colored water fountain. If feeling "superior" is more important than drinking, then I guess this apartied system will continue.

 

[surplus1]

I disagree. All DAL code flying belongs to the Delta pilots. It's in our contract. Management agreed to it. It's not disputable.

That is really a matter of opinion, isn't it. You are of course free to "disagree" as am I, neither of which have anything to do with reality.

The flying in fact belongs to the corporation, i.e., Delta Air Lines. You (DAL pilots) have exclusive acess to a portion of that flying based on your contract with Delta. We have access to the remainder. What that level of respective access turns out to be varies with each negotiation cycle. Tomorrow, you might get lucky and gain 100% of it. You could just as easily lose more than the 43-45% that you have already lost. The Company will make that determination, not you.

You believe that you do and you want others to belive that you "own" all the flying. Your belief is a figment of your imagination and a product of your propaganda machine. You have been able to "sell" that idea to certain regional pilots for two reasons 1) their naivete, and 2) their desire to permit you to shaft them in hopes that they will one day work where you work. You are blinded by greed and we are blinded by envy. The Company has a field day because of it.

The Company has given you access to a part of their flying for a specified period of time. That's it. You do not "own" any of the flying and neither do we.

What is operational integration? Define it, because nothing is written down which defines it.

That is a very good question. Apparently there IS no definition of operational integration within ALPA. It is whatever the Executive Council decides it is from one day to the next.

The Big Four airlines in ALPA (at the time) intentionally made that so precisely to ensure that the Executive Council, which they dominate and control, would "define" the matter in whatever way they wanted it defined from time to time.

A reasonable determination of what actually defines "operational integration" may be found in the NMB criteria for "single carrier" representation. Of course that does not apply to ALPA Merger Policy.

The ALPA Merger Policy was intentionally made so vague as to render it meaningless, whenever ALPA wants it to be that way. It is no coincidence that, at the very same time, the previously clear definition of "alter ego" was also removed from the ALPA Administration Manual.

"What a tangeled web we weave, when first we practice to deceieve". Political subterfuge is no stranger to the Air Line Pilots Association. It is alive and well.

 

[kennedy8]

MEC DALPA DCI ASA COMAIR SKYW

By the time you all figure out how to fix this mess, it will be the year of 2036.

It reminds me of hi school.

 

[FDJ2]

Your are wrong. Your MEC sold flying it did not want in exchange for higher pay rates. Once you sell something it no longer belongs to you.

Nothing was sold, all DL code was and still is controlled by the DAL PWA. An exemption allowing outsourcing of certain flying was negotiated, but it must comply with section 1 of the DAL PWA and can be amended during negotiations. The sad thing for you is that you positioned yourself perfectly for acquisition as a wholly owned with no scope over the code you fly when you failed to protect your own interests with successorship language.

 

[General Lee]

I like coming home from a 4 day trip and reading a post from Surplus1 pretty much stating that I am a Dalpa "plant" that is trying to dissiminate or spread lies to everyone. Hey Surplus1, I am really just a line pilot that "listens" to other pilots on the line, and I occasionally talk to an MEC member in the lounge. I wasn't at the meeting between Buergy and Lawson---I have no clue what happened there. But, I can speak for many of our current pilots---and I know what they are saying. When I say that there is a lot of disdain for the Comair people in general (even though it may be misdirected at the pilots), that isn't good for you guys. You have an image problem thanks to "stiffing" our furloughs---or atleast that is what a lot of our guys believe. That really is too bad, but don't accuse me of things that are totally false---I just give my opinions, right or wrong.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[surplus1]

I like coming home from a 4 day trip and reading a post from Surplus1 pretty much stating that I am a Dalpa "plant" that is trying to dissiminate or spread lies to everyone. Hey Surplus1, I am really just a line pilot that "listens" to other pilots on the line, and I occasionally talk to an MEC member in the lounge. I wasn't at the meeting between Buergy and Lawson---I have no clue what happened there. But, I can speak for many of our current pilots---and I know what they are saying. When I say that there is a lot of disdain for the Comair people in general (even though it may be misdirected at the pilots), that isn't good for you guys. You have an image problem thanks to "stiffing" our furloughs---or atleast that is what a lot of our guys believe. That really is too bad, but don't accuse me of things that are totally false---I just give my opinions, right or wrong.

Bye Bye---General Lee

General,

Believe it or not I don't have a personal problem with you. In fact I admire your tenacious defense of Delta's furloughed pilots and I am sorry, for them, that you appear to be the only one willing to publicly and consistently defend them. If your MEC would do the same, instead of pursuing its political agendas against Comair pilots they might get some help.

I don't think you're a DMEC "plant", but you do spend a great deal of time repeating allegations made by your MEC in the context of their being "truths". You can believe what they tell you if you want to, that's your choice. The fact that you do believe doesn't make it so.

In your posts you never fail to echo their threats towards Comair pilots, you advocate and support black-balling of Comair pilots, and constantly attempt to remind us of what Delta pilots supposedly did for us that you would like us to repay.

If you feel that can be construed as "spreading lies" about us, you are not far from being right. When you repeat what you have been told you are "spreading it". When what you are told is less than true an you repeat it, you are "spreading a lie". What I said was that you "echo the positions of your MEC" and sir, you do.

I know you are a line pilot because you said so, and I believe you. I also think that you actually and honestly believe the things that you have been told. That doesn't make it so. Since I do know that some of what you have been "told" by your MEC is NOT factual you are repeating false information. Whether or not it is intentional is moot, the effect is the same. It does not improve the situation.

Like you admit about yourself, I have also said that I too was not present in the meeting between Buergy and Lawson. However, I would venuture a guess that I know Lawson far better that you know Buergy. You may have met Buergy (so have I) and you may even have flown with him once or twice, and you of course knew that he was your MEC Chairman. The point is you don't really "know" Buergy (correct me if that is wrong).

In contrast I have known Lawson, on a personal basis, for more than 10 years. I knew him well long before he ever became the MEC Chairman. I have flown with him not once, but many times, before he became a captain. I have interacted with him socially in the past, been to his home, know his wife and his children. Therefore, when he says something in public, it is a lot easier for me to accept the credibility of his statements than when Buergy tells you something or you "listen" to what he is telling 9,000 other Delta pilots most of whom he has never even met.

You are getting your information from your MEC's propaganda machine, your crew lounge banter and possible occassional encounter with your Chairman.

I also get information from my MEC's propaganda, crew lounge banter and direct communication with my representatives many of whom are my friends. Our small size by comparison to your large size makes that possible. You are much more removed from what your MEC does than I am from what my MEC does. I have been lucky enough to know personally all but one of Comair's former MEC Chairmen. This difference is not your fault nor is it mine, it's just the nature of the beast. It still gives me quite an advantage with respect to the probable credibility of what you hear vs what I hear. I doubt you've been at Delta long enough to know the names of more than 3 MEC Chairmen, let alone to know them personally. Sometimes being small has its advantages.

When you say that there is a level of "disdain" for Comair pilots within your group, I agree. What you seem unwilling to accept is the probability that there is an even greater disdain for Delta pilots within the Comair group and by a much higher percentage of that group.

We have about 530 pilots hired within the last three years. Within that component rests 90% of the pilots that are enamoured by the idea of joining your group. That is the same component that is concerned about your black-balling threats and the rest of the anti-Comair rhetoric that flows from you guys. The rest of us know your modus operandi and have been living with your MEC's ever changing agenda with respect to Comair pilots for years.

Most of us in the upper 2/3 of our group know your colors, know what you have done and what you have been trying to do over time. We are also reasonably well informed about what your MEC would like to do in the future. Most of it is not favorable to us.

One of the things that we know is that most of the anti-Comair "disdain", as you put it, comes from your less than 4-year group, the majority of which is furloughed. So that's about 12% of your total group. Another 15% in the upper echelons barely knows if we exist and couldn't care less one way or the other (excepting the union politicians). The remaining 60% is essentially insulated from what we do, with some paying attention and most typically blase'.

Perhaps I'm all wet, but I would guess that the majority of your group does NOT hold us in "disdain", they just don't care one way or the other.

That boils down to this. The bottom 15 % of your group hates us. The bottom 30% of our group loves you. The upper 2/3 of your group pays us little concern one way or the other. The upper 2/3 of our group knows that you are not our friends. Your politicians, of their own choosing, are our sworn enemies.

If there is in fact a growing tide of resentment against Comair pilots in the Delta pilot group, where does it come from? Answer, your MEC. They have an agenda that is in step with the ALPA agenda and the ALPA agenda is not favorable to regional carriers.

The most anti-regional MEC's in ALPA have long been USAir, NWA, and UAL. At first the Delta MEC did not share that attitude, but ever since the advent of the RJ, the other three have consistently and increasingly pressured the DMEC to join them. Gradually your MEC was persuaded and did join with its peers in the crusade to stop the RJ. Although that policy has failed completely, and new economic circumstance has forced the USAMEC and UALMEC's to alter their positions (reluctantly), the NWA and DAL MEC's maintain their belligerence and flawed agendas.

Most regional MEC's have cowered in fear of the powers that be within the Union, thus permitting its unreasonable positions to be maintained and made progressively worse. The Comair group has chosen to resist the hegemony and is therefore a prime target.

The truth is that the rank and file line pilots could easily learn to work together were in not for the national agenda and their MEC's proactive support of it. Until that National and major MEC leadership passes into oblivion and a new breed of thinkers, willing to admit that we need each other more than we don't comes into power, the divisiveness will continue to fester and grow.

In the beginning, the DMEC led the way in sensible thinking and the Company and pilot group both benefited greatly from that. The DMEC could lead the way again in setting a precedent that resolves the problems (and no, I'm not talking about a merger). It will take more than rhetoric and hate mail to get there. A new president of ALPA with the courage and vision of a statesman could also do the trick. When that might happen is not something that I would try to predict.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Y'know-

As someone who is on furlough and it is questionable that I will be called back within the forseeable future (if ever), I just can't see the reason for the clamor over getting the Delta furloughees back into a flying job.

There's lots of great ways to make money on furlough. I have had to adapt to a non-flying job- you just make do.

I don't doubt that most of the Delta furloughs will be back to work in few years making good money. Therefore, from an outsider's perspective, I am beginning to really believe that the General (among others) doesn't really 'regret' the 'unfortunate' decision of the CMR pilots not to help the furloughs. The drum-beating is too unceasing.

The frequency of the outcry over this situation is too telling. I mean, what's done is done. The fact that you (General) seem unable to put yourself in the shoes of CMR pilots is very obvious.

There's only one thing worse than a sore loser - a sore winner.

Being a Delta furloughee probably wouldn't be such a bad deal for some folk.