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DL MEC Rumor???

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surplus1 said:

Like you admit about yourself, I have also said that I too was not present in the meeting between Buergy and Lawson. However, I would venuture a guess that I know Lawson far better that you know Buergy. You may have met Buergy (so have I) and you may even have flown with him once or twice, and you of course knew that he was your MEC Chairman. The point is you don't really "know" Buergy (correct me if that is wrong).

.

I have no doubt you know Lawson well. The thing is though, even with all the best intentions or relaying what happened with accuracy, person perceptions and agendas affect you when you present your version of what happened. You can interview two people who were a part of the same meeting, and get two different descriptions of what took place.
 
100LL... Again! said:
Y'know-

As someone who is on furlough and it is questionable that I will be called back within the forseeable future (if ever), I just can't see the reason for the clamor over getting the Delta furloughees back into a flying job.

There's lots of great ways to make money on furlough. I have had to adapt to a non-flying job- you just make do.

I don't doubt that most of the Delta furloughs will be back to work in few years making good money. Therefore, from an outsider's perspective, I am beginning to really believe that the General (among others) doesn't really 'regret' the 'unfortunate' decision of the CMR pilots not to help the furloughs. The drum-beating is too unceasing.

The frequency of the outcry over this situation is too telling. I mean, what's done is done. The fact that you (General) seem unable to put yourself in the shoes of CMR pilots is very obvious.

There's only one thing worse than a sore loser - a sore winner.

Being a Delta furloughee probably wouldn't be such a bad deal for some folk.

You make some good points, however.......

Many of us Delta furloughees are realativly young. If you get out of flying for too long and Delta doesn't make it........well you might be out of luck for longer than you may have if you had kept current.

I was fortunate to get a corporate/charter job. However, having the opportunity to work for cmr and not have to move would have been a nice option. I am comming around to understanding cmr pilots reasons. I did not know such animosity existed towards the Delta pilots, if cmr pilots dislike our union (DALPA) and pilots, I don't blame them for not wanting to fly with us. It's just that from what I can now tell, the feelings are mutual.

Good luck to you 100LL and I hope you get recalled as soon as possible.

Regards,

NYR
 
The policy of making a pilot surrender a seniority number is B.S. We all know the furloughs will be a while so the company can recoup costs (which is kind of the same company, right?) I for one have benefited from having someone in the right seat who had "been there done that".
 
Surplus1,

I did fly with Buergy once a few years back on reserve after scheduling put me on part of a CVG 757/767 trip. He seemed nice and was a good Capt.

As far as listening to "lies" and spreading them back on this forum, believe it or not I am not an idiot, and I actually am well versed on this industry. What I bring to this forum is a small sense of what the average line pilot thinks. I really don't try to bring the "party line", and I am still miffed at why Comair wouldn't help my friends. I am constantly reminded of this because I talk and correspond with my furloughed friends a couple times a week atleast. I really don't have an agenda here, I am just stressing my point TO THE MAX.

As far as the "disdain" some of our guys have for "comair people"---I think that is reality. Not everyone dislikes them, but a majority aren't happy when someone brings up that topic. Why do people bring it up? Because everyone knows a furlough or two. It just wasn't nice to not help them--regardless of what you may think of our MEC. The cold hard fact is that we have people out there that need HELP, and they don't want to give up their rights to a job that was maybe their dream job. The ASA and Chataqua people can understand this (whoever they are), and they have provided the help. That will be remembered. Now, if you take that as a threat, well, I take that as making sure we help them someday.


100LL again....,

I am sorry you are out and I think it is great that you can find something productive to do while waiting to come back. Good for you. A lot of my furloughed friends cannot for some reason. A lot of them love to fly and can't seem to do much else. I never flew for the Military, and I did fly Brasilias back in the early to mid- 90's, and I have been there in the "commuter" (not regionals yet) ranks---with the very low pay, bad schedules etc... I have defended the regional guys many times to our own Military dorks who put them down in my presence.( many 727FOs when I was the FE) I know what it was like, and all I wanted from this was support for those guys/gals who needed help---and I feel very very lucky that I am not furloughed myself. Maybe this will all blow over someday----but I know that most of the 1310 people that were or are currently furloughed at Delta will remember this treatment or lack of it.


NYRangers,

I am glad you got a corporate job, and I hope you get back soon to Delta. Maybe some future early retirements will help you move closer to that point.

Bye Bye--General Lee;) :rolleyes:
 
To clarify-

Regardless of what has gone before, it would have been very classy of the CMR pilots to request that DAL furloughs be hired without resigning sen #'s. If I were at CMR and in a position to do so, I would have made the request.

Big point - the furloughed pilots are the ones being affected, while any pilots who possess "mainline a$$hole disease" are not likely to make use of this hiring.

Would I have expected anything in return? Heck no.

But I don't make my decisions based on what others do for me. I just try to do what is right.
 
100LL...again,

Maybe you haven't seen my "work" on this board, but even though I am still at Mainline---I actually am trying to help out the less fortunate---I am an advocate for them. Unfortunately, everything I may say on this board may have NOT help the entire situation. It would have been classy for them to allow our furloughs to the bottom of their list---and the pilots may not have the ability to allow that---but they can try. That is my point.

Bye Bye--General Lee:rolleyes:
 
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scopeCMRandASA said:
This is exactly what is happening. It's true. The truly ironic thing is that I think we will be finding ourselves, in the not too distant future, part of a MESA conglomerate. I wish I could see the look on their faces the day it is announced. Justice, a painful lesson sometimes.

--a concerned regional pilot



That would be my worst nightmare, bar none.
 
100LL... Again! said:
To clarify-

Regardless of what has gone before, it would have been very classy of the CMR pilots to request that DAL furloughs be hired without resigning sen #'s. If I were at CMR and in a position to do so, I would have made the request.

Perhaps it will surprise you but I agree that it would have been "classy" to ignore the history and request that DL furloughees be given preference over furloughees from other carriers. The point is, what killed that classy overture was not a "hate DL syndrome" on the part of Comair pilots it was the strategy employed by your MEC Chairman. A simple "hey, we could use some help" would almost certainly have resulted in a positive response and the "history" would have been ignored as water under the bridge.

Unfortunately, that isn't what happened. There's a huge difference between "we need some help" and "You will do this now or I'm going to tell. And by the way, if you do it I will give you this worthless bribe." When you want my help, don't offend me before you ask for it.

Speaking only for myself, I would have been willing to support quite a bit more than a waiver of seniority resignation. For instance, no interview, full credit for DL longevity on future vacancies, and no promises of any payback. Given the approach that was made by your leadership, I won't even support the waiver.

What irks me now is the effort to shift the blame for what the Delta MEC didn't do right to every Comair line pilot, the constant threats of black-balling, and the constant reminders of the imagined largess on the part of Delta pilots during our strike. That merely uncovers what I would generously classify as an udesirable group character flaw. It sticks in the craw, puts salt in an open wound, and serves no purpose other than to remind us of the very real and unpleasant history of your MEC's activities against the collective interests of Comair pilots.

Rarely do you (DL pilots) need anything from the likes of us. Your leadership spends much of its time threatening, attempting to dictate, attempting to intimidate, and trying to take from us. Then when 10% of you need some assistance, that same leadership comes to the table not to ask for it, but to make yet another threat and a patently bogus offer on which it obviously can't deliver. That is NOT how you "win friends and influence people."

No matter how hard I try, I cannot believe that your leadership is too stupid to realize the reaction that such an approach would generate. Therefore, I have to believe that the approach was deliberately designed to elicit the precise response that it did.

Perhaps I am giving your former MEC Chairman more credit that he deserves, but I do not think he's an idiot. He knew what he wanted going in and it was not help for his furloughed pilots. He wanted a "NO" answer, knew what he had to do to get one, did it, and that is what he got.

Politics is a dirty game and, in my opinion, your "leader" intentionally chose to play politics with the situation of you furloughed folks. Comair pilots did nothing to you guys, your own MEC Chairman did.

Big point - the furloughed pilots are the ones being affected, while any pilots who possess "mainline a$$hole disease" are not likely to make use of this hiring.

Exactly! Now, do you really believe that your "chief" was too dumb to know that? I think he did know, and he was more interested in making a political statement and inciting animosity in the line pilots than in obtaining minimal help for the furloughees. In other words he sold you out for a perceived political advantage that he did not even achieve.

He could easily have seized an opportunity to mend the fences in which we would have willingly joined. Instead, he chose an opportunity to widen the gap. I wish I could say I was surprised, but given what I know, the truth is I was not. Leopards don't change their spots.

Would I have expected anything in return? Heck no.

We wouldn't have expected anything in return either. What we got was a threat and the offer of a phony bribe. So, we responded with lack of interest. What did he expect us to do, wag our tails and salivate?

But I don't make my decisions based on what others do for me. I just try to do what is right.

I like that. I try to do the same. However, I confess that I do make some decisons on the basis of what others do to me. I'm sure you can pick up on the difference between "do for" and "do to."

I'm glad you have a job. I'll be happy for you when you return to DL and I do hope it will be soon. I regret missing the chance to fly with you. I wish things were not the way they are. Maybe some day it will change. I'm still willing to cross the bridge, but we must meet in the middle.
 
From Surplus1:


I like that. I try to do the same. However, I confess that I do make some decisons on the basis of what others do to me. I'm sure you can pick up on the difference between "do for" and "do to."


I make decisions based on what I would want others to do to me. IOW, I treat others how I would want to be treated. Helps me sleep at night. I don't know how you do, you bitter old man.

Mesa's coming. He, he, he, he.

--a concerned regional pilot
 
scopeCMRandASA said:


I don't know how you do, you bitter old man.

Mesa's coming. He, he, he, he.

--a concerned regional pilot

My non-factual opinion:

I am part of the silent majority; I am a “lurker”. I have been reading the debates between Comair pilots and Delta pilots for well over a year. There are many Delta pilots who have persuaded me away from my previous view, and there are Comair pilots who have done the same. Unfortunately, however, both sides contain members who would serve well by remaining silent. They are not professional or diplomatic. These people polarize their beliefs with emotional filled malevolence. I have a difficult time ignoring gratuitous disgust.

The Delta pilots have an advantage in these arguments. I say this because they come from a larger, wealthier collective. In fact, this dispute it is not unlike any other – Greater proportions tilt the advantage toward the larger, richer corps. This holds true in sports, holds true in wars, in politics and even debate.

Delta pilots come from a wealthy group of 9000 strong. They also have an older and more experienced populace. That’s a strong advantage over 1800 younger Comair pilots.

Notwithstanding, however, in this "Delta/Comair debate", it seems to me as though the smaller and younger group of Comair pilots posses a greater amount of discipline for diplomacy. Yet, I want to make note of the person above.

This individual does not fit into the catagory of "respectful", does he? ScopeCMRandASA, you had nothing coherent or relevant to say – yet you write. If you disagree with someone I suggest you express your point of view. If you have no point of view, then I recommend you say nothing at all. You will do better at persuading if you do.

What’s more, a name like “ScopeCMRandASA” might as well say KKK. It is offensive and shows prejudice, but I believe you already know this and desire its effect. I also believe you are a Delta pilot. I do not know that, but it is what I suspect. Your self-chosen name shows a lack of integrity, thus I do not expect honesty to be one of your characteristic traits. I think you seek to deceive.
 
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What’s more, a name like “ScopeCMRandASA” might as well say KKK. It is offensive and shows prejudice, but I believe you already know this and desire its effect. I also believe you are a Delta pilot. I do not know that, but it is what I suspect. Your self-chosen name shows a lack of integrity, thus I do not expect honesty to be one of your characteristic traits. I think you seek to deceive.

Well, I appreciate your post. I would like to point out, however, that I have clearly explained myself in the past. The screen name does not reflect on the problems our black cultures in the USA face daily. Indeed, that would be akin to the equivalent of the KKK. My screen name reflects the fact that I am FIRMLY in favor of scope limits imposed on the Comair and ASA pilots. Actually, not so much trhe limits on the pilots, but rather the limits on the quantity of those quality of JOBS.

As for the lack of content of my post, I agree with you that it contained no substance. Again, however, I have been round and round with this guy, and flown with many like him, who are determined to take the ship down because they didn't get theirs, won't get theirs, or feel cheated in some other manner. It becomes quite old after a while. I have provided many substantial posts in the past, and really see no reason to retype the same stuff all over to match him tit for tat; as apparently he does have time to type the same stuff over and over.

It boils down to this: while we may be equals in terms of skills, we do not bring equal quality careers to the table, and have no business attempting to deprive the Delta pilots of their contract, compensation, and lucrative careers. I am sorry, but I just don't but the same union/same company argument, and neither would Delta. I am one of those who desires to move on someday via the traditional method, applying, and I want things to continue the way they are. I certainly would not oppose one list right now if it happened, but I do not believe it will, and it actually benefits me as I will someday arrive at the big show without some of our bitter, elderly types being senior to me.

Sorry if it offends you, but they offend me--especially him with his condescending ways. Watch I am sure you will read them shortly. Probably something about inexperienced pilots not having the same, valid opinions--facts in his mind--which the more experienced--bitter in my mind--possess. I notice that you chosse not to chistise him for his shortcomings, which was EXACTLY what I was doing in my last post.

--a concerned REGIONAL (emphasis added) pilot
 
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Hey ScopeASA/CMR

While your premise is nice, your place in the facts of life and the understanding of how things really work, is off. If you want to protect your Delta buddies fine. If you want to join the Delta navy great. But if you want either one the only way to provide that is through support of a well paid and strong quality of life issues at CMR and ASA and others. Why, you ask? Even if you don’t I’ll tell you. It's because until the cost effectives of multiple trip, high frequency flights that customers seem to demand, and the ability to whip saw over price of one pilot group against the other, all you will have is Delta the CMR/ASA Connection. Over simplistic, yes. But what do I know I’m just a pilot like you. But not as near sighted.
 
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scopeCMRandASA said:
My screen name reflects the fact that I am FIRMLY in favor of scope limits imposed on the Comair and ASA pilots. Actually, not so much trhe limits on the pilots, but rather the limits on the quality of those JOBS....

--a concerned REGIONAL (emphasis added) pilot

So tell me, is crapping in your own bed a strategy that's worked well for you in the past?
 
Not to further inflames this discussion, but upon reflection, this is how I understand it (correct me if am wrong):

The "reasonable DAL pilot's" position is:

"I can't believe you would use furloughed piltots as bargaining chips to improve your situation."


The "reasonable CMR pilot's" position is:

"I can't believe you would make a demand instad of a request, unless you really wanted us to turn it down to suit your agenda".




Credibility for the mainline position:

If it really was a blackmail position, by upping the terms, it indicated a willingness to deal, but with better terms. In other words, when the 'threat' was made, the CMR MEC should have backed away completely and not offered to deal. Is this what happened? That is my understanding.



Credibiity for the CMR position:

If the CMR MEC was not attempting to deal but was only indicating that it would take a true partnership between groups before any agreement could be reached, then I see their point.




Bottom line: The situation can't be judged without knowing the true intent of the parties to the discussion.


Thoughts?
 
N2264J said:
So tell me, is crapping in your own bed a strategy that's worked well for you in the past?

Actually, it was a mistype. I am very much in favor of improving QOL at my job. I am also in favor of scoping my current job in order to protect the job a desire someday. Thank you for eloquently pointing it out.

--a concerned regional pilot
 
scopejerk,
so you 'seek to limit the QUALITY those jobs'? I take that to mean the quality of life for me? Is that right? You openly say that you want the quality of life for me to be far inferior to yours? Are you meaning my family is far lower than yours?? Please explain that your post was COMPLETLEY misread. If so, whew!!
If not, DON'T EVER GET ON MY AIRPLANE.
 
Scope said "???????????????"

You made my point, you don't get it
 
100LL...again,

I think your response was very good--and I like how you seperated the two points of view. I wasn't in the room with the two MEC chairs at their meeting, so I don't know what was exactly said (even though Surplus1 thinks he knows). When it comes down to it, the ASA and Chataqua people (I don't know if it was their management, or MEC, etc....) saw the fact that we had quality pilots furloughed and they might need some help and might want to work (at the bottom) for a DCI carrier. Those people didn't have to "ask" for something in return for helping them. You shouldn't kick people when they are down. I don't know if our MEC Chair "threatened" or "demanded" help from the Comair people---and if they had with the ASA people they probably wouldn't have gotten any help. Does that make sense? So I guess our guy JUST THREATENED the Comair MEC Chair......? He might have met with him and was surprised that the Comair MEC Chair WANTED SOMETHING IN RETURN---and maybe then he became angry..... I don't think our MEC Chair asked for anything from the Comair people when they were about to strike---he probably said, "Good luck..."


ScopeCMRand ASA,

I absolutely understand where you are coming from---you want there to be a better job waiting for you someday at Delta---adn you don't want to see all of the new jobs be low paying ones at the DCI carriers. I hope Delta comes out of all this mess ok and eventually we do start hiring again after our furloughs are back---and we will hopefully start with cooperating airlines--like ASA and Chataqua. I don't think the regionals need worse conditions---even though I still think they should give something---anything--to help out---but nothing excessive by any means. I know they make less and it is hard to live on that lower salary---I was there too. We all should want to keep as many mainline aircraft on the property as possible---and we should also promote from within---I have nothing against a staple or preferential hiring from DCI exclusively----even though some of our guys want some Military buddies to be thrown in too---which could be worked out somehow. I enjoy your posts---no doubt.

Bye Bye--General Lee:rolleyes:
 
scopeCMRandASA said:
As for the lack of content of my post, I agree with you that it contained no substance. Again, however, I have been round and round with this guy, and flown with many like him, who are determined to take the ship down because they didn't get theirs, won't get theirs, or feel cheated in some other manner. It becomes quite old after a while. I have provided many substantial posts in the past, and really see no reason to retype the same stuff all over to match him tit for tat; as apparently he does have time to type the same stuff over and over.

Interesting. You say "it contained no substance" .... how could I disagree? Then you say "I have provided many substanial posts in the past" ...... I apologize for having missed them.

I especially like the mid-section above. Apparently you have decided that I am older than you. Based on your rhetoric I could not argue with that assumption. Chronologically I think you're accurate as well. That I base on the concept that maturity is more often associated with age, and the petulance you display, with youth.

With respect to the reaminder you make assumptions. The truth is we do not know each other, and apart from the opinions I too often express in these forums, which don't deal with my personal life, you know nothing of my background in the industry past or present. I'm sure you don't care and that's fine with me. Here are some simple clues: a) I have no desire to take any "ship" down, not the one I'm on, and not the one's that anyone else is on. b)I did "get mine" .... long before I even knew that Comair existed. c) I sincerely hope that you will "get yours", whatever it is you want. d) I only feel cheated by the fact that I've not had the pleasure of meeting you.

I have no idea whom you may have flown with, but I'm sure I'm not among them. Perhaps it may surprise you, but I'm not concerned about having missed that opportunity either. I sincerely hope that you will be fortunate enough to continue to avoid that possibility. You see, I actually enjoy flying and I sure don't want you to feel cheated by my presence in the future. With the odds about 700/1, perhaps our luck will hold. If per chance our paths should cross, feel free to ask for a change of venue, it won't distrub me and I will not hold it against you.

I am one of those who desires to move on someday via the traditional method, applying, and I want things to continue the way they are. I certainly would not oppose one list right now if it happened, but I do not believe it will, and it actually benefits me as I will someday arrive at the big show without some of our bitter, elderly types being senior to me.

I really do hope that you get your wish and will be able to move on far sooner than later. I'm confident that whomever gets the benefit of your progression to the "big show" will consider themselves no less than blessed. One word of caution. Be aware that should you move to Delta, by the time you get there even the General will fall into the category of "old" and he will be senior to you. So will about 10,000 other "bitter, elderly types", many of whom may not be as tolerant of petulance and chastisement as the young folks that enjoy your wisdom at present.

I wish you luck.
 

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