Details about the near-crash in Germany

[BigMeat]

I ALWAYS take the tough landings. No way am I going to trust my aircraft in the hands of a rookie during a tough approach. This captain made a bad decision pure and simple. Who cares whether it was a male or female FO.

FOs are there to support the captain, and if they are nice, maybe they will get a leg. LOL


J/k about that last part. LOL Well, sorta. hehehehe

And if it really gets rough Pocono, then handed it over to man sitting next to you.

 

[Turtle21]

Nothing like flying with an assertive, smart, over-confident woman with little experience, until she attempts first crosswind landing or go-around.


What adventure! And the rationalizations come spewing out...read something years ago that noted a study by the Air safety foundation.. said men have slight tendency to make judgement errors, women have problems with aircraft handling. I believe it...

I love flying....

As a military flight instructor with about 2,000 hours of teaching the T-37 (First jet for Air Force) I have empirical evidence relating to women pilots.

Flight suits are cut for narrow hips and broad shoulders.:laugh:

 

[Lear70]

First of all where did I say "always"? I said most and if you look you will see that the data supports my position.

Granted, but I still think "most" isn't very accurate. I'd be interested to see a breakdown, maybe it is 60/40 or something similar, I'd be curious to know.

My company's rules would not allow me to attempt a landing with a 59kt crosswind component. If they did I don't think I would try unless I had a compelling reason to land (fire).

That wasn't the component, that was the gust. 60 degrees off the nose, base winds at 40 I believe, makes it around a 30 kt base crosswind component, 50 kt gust.

That said, I'd have thought twice about it as well.

If I thought the conditions were within legal and real limits I can't see a situation where the Fo should not be allowed to make the first attempt, unless: that person is still in training.

I can. Our F/O's aren't even allowed to TOUCH the controls for the first 6 months until they've been signed off by 3 Captains AND a check airman. For ANY phase of flight.

No, I'm not kidding, and it's usually warranted, sad to say, because of their inexperience.

Keep in mind that if you think they are too weak to handle the situation you are now effectively moving yourself into a single pilot environment. You had better not make a mistake, no-one will catch you if you fall.

Welcome to my world. This is the hardest I've ever had to work in my life. The last couple weeks have been nice, I've had guys close to upgrade and I've been letting them fly all the legs from the left seat.

Last month? Let's just say I spent the entire 2 weeks training them how to prep charts, READ charts, tune navaids (and when to tune) and program the GPS for the route, plus having to answer half their calls they missed.

Maybe that's skewing my take on this accident - plus the low-time airline pilot is a personal pet peeve of mine. I cringe when I have to get in the back of an RJ and the kid on the right looks about 15 and the CA looks about 80, weighs 290 pounds, and is chewing on his take-out McD's...

On a final note: When I was an instructor I waited as long as possible before I interfered. On the lear I waited less than on any other airplane.

Learjet: Easy to fly - Easy to crash

I asked one student what he thought it took to fly the lear.

With a heavy accent; "Razor sharp pitch control, split second decision making."

Agreed.

Hmmm me thinks we have a tool here

If you say so...

Or maybe you'd like to be the German CA at this point on administrative leave pending discipline/retraining/609 ride? 'Cause that's what would have happened here...

Personally, I'm not taking that chance. Your mileage may vary.

 

[jke406]

Let's face it. Male or female, Ab initio pilots SUCK.

 

[waveflyer]

How many hours does the standard military pilot have when he/she's first on real sophisticated a/c?

ie: it can be done- but the training and the talent have to be there.
Nothing replaces a sharp mind and a knack for the job- like i said before- we've all flown w/ plenty of 10,000 hour guys who've been f'ing this job up for over a decade. Just not bad enough yet to be fired. I've flown w/ some very sharp young 1000 hour guys and girls who i have no doubt would have been very good at 300 hours if they had the opportunity. It was about their talent and approach to the job. Plenty of pilots build time warming seats... even as instructors. Some get a lot out of every flight.

 

[IronCityBlue]

you gotta love automatic German to English translation.

"Quite modestly, he said after the horror landing: "It was a sophisticated approach. But through the start we were Lord of the situation. "

:laugh: Any questions? I didn't think so! Now eetz tyme on Schprocketz zat ve dawnce!

 

[bubbers44]

She needs about 5 hrs in a J3 cub to learn how to land in a crosswind. That approach reminds me of what my students did 30 years ago on their first x-wind landing attempts.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I can. Our F/O's aren't even allowed to TOUCH the controls for the first 6 months until they've been signed off by 3 Captains AND a check airman. For ANY phase of flight.

No, I'm not kidding, and it's usually warranted, sad to say, because of their inexperience.


Welcome to my world. This is the hardest I've ever had to work in my life. The last couple weeks have been nice, I've had guys close to upgrade and I've been letting them fly all the legs from the left seat.

Last month? Let's just say I spent the entire 2 weeks training them how to prep charts, READ charts, tune navaids (and when to tune) and program the GPS for the route, plus having to answer half their calls they missed.

Maybe that's skewing my take on this accident - plus the low-time airline pilot is a personal pet peeve of mine.

Lear I agree....but just curious....where are you now that has such tight restrictions on the new guys? Doesn't sound like a bad idea.....

 

[waveflyer]

If it actually takes 6 months to be able to touch the controls- they shouldn't be pilots at all.

 

[JoeMerchant]

If it actually takes 6 months to be able to touch the controls- they shouldn't be pilots at all.

....some of them aren't and shouldn't be signed off to solo out of the pattern....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

"Sidestick takeover command button?" What the hell is that? Is this an airplane or a PS3 console? Plastic French crap.

That is right DC9 boy..... enjoy eating your Pascals on your lap.....

I got a nice pullout table I'd like you to meet....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Let's face it. Male or female, Ab initio pilots SUCK.

And yet it is the future... not much you can do about it...

Control what you can.....


on general topic...

Seems to me a little rudder skill is in order....

Rudders are for two reasons: xwind landings and V1 cuts.... but it seems most can't even do that....



go get some tailwheel time....

 

[Lear70]

If it actually takes 6 months to be able to touch the controls- they shouldn't be pilots at all.

You've obviously never tried to fly a 20-series Lear at 300 hours total time coming straight out of a Duchess and/or 172.

Flying the CRJ is like flying a Baron compared to flying the Lear. The quote from AbleOne is most accurate: "Razor sharp pitch control, split-second decision-making". It's not that it's a hard airplane to fly, it's that it can get away from even a seasoned pilot if your attention is diverted for even 2 seconds.

New pilots just don't have the scan to keep up with the airplane when you're taking off empty at 50 degrees OAT with only 3,500 lbs of fuel on board because you're doing your last leg home and it's CAVU and only a 20 minute flight. To be more specific, my last flight like this had a 1,500 ft displaced threshold. We were airborne before we reached the Fixed Distance Marker (less than a 2,000 foot takeoff roll) and cleared 10,000 feet AGL before the end of the runway in the climb.

Then, when you level off at 10,000, if you don't bring the power back aggressively (from 97% to 70% or so), it will go from 200 kts to red line (307) in less than 10 seconds, then the overspeed horn is screaming at you, plus you're fighting just to hold your altitude as the pitch changes with the center of pressure movement along the chord.

No, I'm not exaggerating. The only other aircraft that perform like it are the G-2 (and the MU-2 for roll rate but not climb speed). Period. It's NOT a good airplane to make a transition into the turbine world, much less the jet world, but they catch up... eventually.

THAT'S why Argus (insurance) minimums for 20-series Lear Captains are DOUBLE what they are for 30- and later series Lear Captains and why the DoD won't allow any pilots on DoD contracts that don't have 250 hours in type for the Lear, but will take 100 in the Falcon.

Joe, I work for Kalitta. They're just being safe, realizing that the pilots are qualified and checked per the FAA, but that they're not ready for many of the flight situations they're going to get and want the CA to fly until the F/O's are good and comfortable with the PNF aspects before they start trying to mix a new aircraft, new operation type, high-altitude airspace nav, and high-density ATC work with flying an aircraft that averages 200-300% faster in all phases of flight than they're used to.

That's also why many regional airline FOM's state not only that the CA is the final authority as to who flies, but also that although it is customary to swap legs, the CA is under no obligation to do so if he/she deems it necessary for the safety of flight (straight out of the PCL FOM).

I'm a firm believer that to be an Airline Pilot, you should have to possess an Airline Transport Pilot license, including the minimum flight times to obtain it. Go build time where you're not risking the flying public. I did, so did many others; it's called "paying your dues", and I don't mean with Daddy's wallet (or a student loan you can't possibly hope to pay back for at least a decade or more).

 

[JoeMerchant]

That's also why many regional airline FOM's state not only that the CA is the final authority as to who flies, but also that although it is customary to swap legs, the CA is under no obligation to do so if he/she deems it necessary for the safety of flight (straight out of the PCL FOM).

I'm a firm believer that to be an Airline Pilot, you should have to possess an Airline Transport Pilot license, including the minimum flight times to obtain it. Go build time where you're not risking the flying public. I did, so did many others; it's called "paying your dues", and I don't mean with Daddy's wallet (or a student loan you can't possibly hope to pay back for at least a decade or more).

Exactly correct.....ALPA could make this a priority and possibly enlist help from the media and the insurance companys...

This is a true safety issue that has collective bargaining implications.....

Other professions have managed to regulate the barriers to entry much better than we have.....

 

[CX880]

I couldn't even finish reading those articles, basically praising the pilots for saving peoples lives. The 24 year old pilot who was apparently flying in hurricane weather, if you watch the video, you'll see that was the worst crosswind technique possible. I didn't even check what the experience of the fo was. In my opinion they should be fired.

 

[waveflyer]

Apologies Lear- I haven't flown the Lear, but my old instructor flew at Kalitta and used to tell stories. All i'm saying is that i'll take a good attitude pilot who has been conscientious and shown ability their whole career w/ lower time- than somebody acting as a dead weight in the right seat building time- I really have flown w/ 3000 hour pilots who struggled much more than many 1000 hour pilots. Merit in aviation does matter.
I'm a fan of the majors taking back flying that should be theirs. We don't need 25 yo's w/ 2500 hours being captains on jets flying 50-90 people around on terrible work rule contracts that make you tired and don't attract the best pilots.

 

[waveflyer]

agreed on the barriers to entry part. as much as i agree that those w/ ability will do well whenever they get the opportunity- the risk goes down w/ flight time. Maybe they'll also appreciate the job more and demand better contracts if it took more effort to get the job.

 

[CA1900]

"Quite modestly, he said after the horror landing: "It was a sophisticated approach. But through the start we were Lord of the situation. "

:laugh: Any questions?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVmIhd1gwpk


:laugh:

 

[PCL_128]

That is right DC9 boy.....

Long live the McBoeing!

I got a nice pullout table I'd like you to meet....

No thanks. I prefer to have the stews sit on my lap.

 

[huncowboy]

I can. Our F/O's aren't even allowed to TOUCH the controls for the first 6 months until they've been signed off by 3 Captains AND a check airman. For ANY phase of flight.

Man it must be hard to get signed off when you can't even touch the yoke. So what do they do to get signed off? They talk you through an ILS? I guess there has to be a reason for getting the FOs your company is getting.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Exactly correct.....ALPA could make this a priority and possibly enlist help from the media and the insurance companys...

I thought you rejected alpa...why do you expect them to do this?

in addition, alpa couldn't work on this for a while because of certian lawsiut....

Finally, its a great idea! can you provide the critical thought of application?

 

[Lear70]

Man it must be hard to get signed off when you can't even touch the yoke. So what do they do to get signed off? They talk you through an ILS?

They get signed off from PNF to F/O (which allows them to fly) by flying an entire day without missing anything (radio callouts, navaid settings, GPS programming, clearance, preflight, checklist, standard callouts, etc).

Seriously.

I guess there has to be a reason for getting the FOs your company is getting.

The same reason EVERYONE is hurting for F/O's, even the regionals who are hiring people with wet commercial certificates.

Not many people want to spend $150,000+ or more to get all their ratings and get to where you can become a regional f/o making $18k a year...

I don't blame them.

 

[ultrarunner]

They get signed off from PNF to F/O (which allows them to fly) by flying an entire day without missing anything (radio callouts, navaid settings, GPS programming, clearance, preflight, checklist, standard callouts, etc).

Seriously.

Man, I wouldn't make it one leg, let alone the entire day, not to mention the entire tour!

 

[IronCityBlue]

Man, I wouldn't make it one leg, let alone the entire day, not to mention the entire tour!

So they have one good day and they're good to go. Meanwhile they don't know the difference between wing into or wing away from the wind on a crosswind landing. Yeah, that perfect day of never missing a radio call is the acid test alright. :laugh:

 

[ultrarunner]

No $hit Ironcity...what a crock. A one-day IOW...great!

 

[waveflyer]

We all need to be teaching all the time. We all need to be learning- ALL the time.

In this case it needs to be stressed that in a crosswind- the wingtip that is in the most jeopardy is the downwind wing- and stress the reasons why.

Do that and it's a lot funner. Those who run away from that- run into situations like this and can't handle them.

ps- doesn't matter how good you used to be either.

 

[Ty Webb]

Heh-heh . . . Reminds me of a story told to me by a Learjet pilot who was trying to break in a former MU-2 driver on a LR25.

He said when they were approaching an assigned altitude, it would go something like this:

"Two thousand". . "One thousand" . ."My Airplane!"

.

 

[Lear70]

Not my policy, don't shoot the messenger.

And, in case you missed, it, it's not a nomination for upgrade training, just being allowed to start flying some of the empty legs that don't have weather or mx considerations so that they start building experience, then they get to fly live legs, then they get signed off as LSA (Left Seat Authorized), then they get recommended for upgrade.

Not a perfect system, but it's working,,, FWIW.

Ty, that's not far from the truth. Nothing like climbing so fast the needle is stuck on 6,000 fpm (and you don't really know what the rate is - it's been clocked upwards of 10,000 fpm by ATC) and the guy isn't slowing his climb down 2,000 feet from level-off.

 

[Lear70]

We all need to be teaching all the time. We all need to be learning- ALL the time.

In this case it needs to be stressed that in a crosswind- the wingtip that is in the most jeopardy is the downwind wing- and stress the reasons why.

Do that and it's a lot funner. Those who run away from that- run into situations like this and can't handle them.

ps- doesn't matter how good you used to be either.

Very true.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I thought you rejected alpa...why do you expect them to do this?

I don't expect them to do this....they will probably fail with this issue too....

in addition, alpa couldn't work on this for a while because of certian lawsiut....

Are you referring to the RJDC lawsuit? It has already been settled....Why are you using it as an excuse...Surely you can come up with a better one....

Finally, its a great idea! can you provide the critical thought of application?

Yes I can.....Press releases to the media regarding the experience level of new pilots and passing this information along to the major aviation insurance companies along with a sit down with them to address the potential issue it may cause with regards to safety.....In addition, I would recommend a full court press opposing the MPL based on safety issues....