Details about the near-crash in Germany

[~~~^~~~]

Sim sessions focus on procedures and approaches. As avgas makes getting real world VISUAL approaches more and more expensive we can expect to fly with pilots who have poor stick and rudder skills. Most new hires these days really struggle with a simple visual approach. Without the structure of an instrument procedure they can't find a profile or configuration to lock on to.

As a profession, maybe we need to mandate more real flying time, not autopilot, or pilot monitoring time.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I'm pretty sure LH is more than happy to fuel the hero story. In fact, there is a picture of both captain and f/o standing together in full uniform smiling, no doubt put in front of the camera by LH management.

The captain is a hero and the poor cute FO who stuffed up the landing are back in flying status along with the airplane.

Can you imagine the negative publicity if they had sacked or demoted the crew and the media picked up on it?

You are correct and I think it fuels incompetence. The Captain should be demoted and the FO should get no less than another 100 hours of IOE. After training, they both should be able to continue their careers.

The public would be more reassured if steps were taken to ensure only highly qualified professionals were flying them around.

 

[Captzaahlie]

Three words.... MULTI CREW LICENSE!!!

just wait until the FO has 200TT and most of that in a sim!!!!

Welcome to my company! (200TT)

That's just one of many reasons I'm moving on next week to another level of flying. I'm flying with a bunch of nice "kids" that for the most part, have good attitudes and knowledge but their's never a moment to let my guard down. I think I'm more than fair in tolerance and willingness to help"'coach" them on how to fly the line (if they want to learn) but it does get tiresome after a while. The rest of you guys & gals out there crewing with newbies to line flying be careful out there, cause you can't put a price on experience. (management thinks they can but they are way of the mark).

 

[PBRstreetgang]

I think the Captain is just as much to blame as the FO for letting the FO land in those conditions.

The Captain is solely to blame, she did her best, and it wasn't good enough. The Captain did his best(judgment), and that wasn't good enough either.
He deserves to lose his job and she deserves a whole lot of sim time doing crosswind landings. You can fix skills, its a lot harder to fix bad judgment.
PBR

 

[PowerCurve]

Lear70 asked for relevant accident information.

18 Dec. 2003 Fedex Flight 647

entire report can be found: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=DCA04MA011&rpt=fa

About 14 seconds after touchdown (about 1226:07), the FDR data showed a lateral load factor of
about 1.0 G as the right wing suddenly moved about 6 lower. About the same time, the CAWS "landing
gear" alert began to sound, which repeated until the end of the recording. About 1226:25, the
captain stated, "here we go," and the airplane began to veer off the right side of the runway. As
the airplane veered to the right and came to a stop, a fire developed on the right side of the
airplane. About 1226:30, the airplane came to rest in the grass on the right side of the runway.
The accident occurred during the hours of daylight. The CVR recording ended when the pilots shut
down the engines (thus stopping electrical power to the CVR) about 1226:41.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

HellOOOOO!
I disturbs me greatly. 10 pages about skillz and judgment and mesa has even been mentioned. mesa even has the corner locked on low time wonders and airborne sleep time and no one has stated the obvious:
MESA SUCKS
You guys were suckered into the typical pilot gearhead sucker trap, thats ok, but lets not forget the real issue. See red letters above!
PBR
Just keeping it real!

 

[BOYCAPTAIN]

The Captain is solely to blame, she did her best, and it wasn't good enough. The Captain did his best(judgment), and that wasn't good enough either.
He deserves to lose his job and she deserves a whole lot of sim time doing crosswind landings. You can fix skills, its a lot harder to fix bad judgment.
PBR

agreed! that's why the captain gets paid more...from the FDX FOM

6.61 Landing Considerations

The Captain must make the landing when visibility is less than 3/4 miles or less than 4000 RVR (the lower value is controlling). The Captain should make the landing when adverse conditions exist.

What is adverse you might ask? That is what the captain gets paid for...making these kinds of decisions...it always comes back to experience! ...this captain made a bad choice and will probably lose his job!

 

[Max Powers]

The CA doesn't give the F/O the option in that situation.

Had that happen before, even with experienced F/O's. The weather is that crappy, I simply say, "I'm going to take this leg because of the weather, you can fly a couple legs tomorrow if you'd like, but the weather sucks and I'm going to fly it."

No discussion. It's not a democracy. That's where judgment comes in.

Hmmm me thinks we have a tool here

 

[Oakum_Boy]

That's what I say too but maybe more delicately. Guess I'm a tool.

 

[pipe]

Yes he should have thought about that before commencing the approach. However once in the flare it looked like it turned ugly real fast. Maybe to fast for him to reach for that side stick. She should have stayed home that day and left the flying to the professionals. Maybe make some soup for some lucky man coming home from a hard day of work.....

I'm surprised this point hasn't come up yet. These two may have been "victims" of that crazy A-320 priority left / priority right sidestick business as the Capt tried to save their a$$es.

I'm willing to bet that in the heat of that mess he didn't remember to hold the priority button, she kept her hands on the stick (let that one go), and the problems were compounded.

It's been awhile, so I don't remember the details of how that whole thing works. I just remember thinking on IOE that, for all practical purposes, if you don't get a good, quick transfer of control - you've got problems. My first thought after learning how that system worked was that I wouldn't want to be a line check airman riding along for someones first landing. There's really no way to "help" a student a bit if they are dorking it up.

PIPE

PS- I just noticed that BringUptheBird mentioned this on page 2. Other than the obvious though - I'm gonna bet that this was a huge factor.

 

[DOVPILOT]

I think the Captain is just as much to blame as the FO for letting the FO land in those conditions.

AMEN!!!

 

[Cardinal]

Amen! Those Airbii just give me the willies. All the "laws" and "modes" trying to second guess everything the pilot does. You guys can have it. I'll stick with my decades-old cable and pulley DC-9 controls.

May you always have the choice.

 

[Max Powers]

That's what I say too but maybe more delicately. Guess I'm a tool.

Or if your skilled and assertive you can prevent something like this from ever happening.

 

[Pocono Pilot]

I ALWAYS take the tough landings. No way am I going to trust my aircraft in the hands of a rookie during a tough approach. This captain made a bad decision pure and simple. Who cares whether it was a male or female FO.

FOs are there to support the captain, and if they are nice, maybe they will get a leg. LOL


J/k about that last part. LOL Well, sorta. hehehehe

 

[viper548]

OH MY GOD, I agree with pocono for once