Details about the near-crash in Germany

[PBRstreetgang]

HellOOOOO!
I disturbs me greatly. 10 pages about skillz and judgment and mesa has even been mentioned. mesa even has the corner locked on low time wonders and airborne sleep time and no one has stated the obvious:
MESA SUCKS
You guys were suckered into the typical pilot gearhead sucker trap, thats ok, but lets not forget the real issue. See red letters above!
PBR
Just keeping it real!

 

[BOYCAPTAIN]

The Captain is solely to blame, she did her best, and it wasn't good enough. The Captain did his best(judgment), and that wasn't good enough either.
He deserves to lose his job and she deserves a whole lot of sim time doing crosswind landings. You can fix skills, its a lot harder to fix bad judgment.
PBR

agreed! that's why the captain gets paid more...from the FDX FOM

6.61 Landing Considerations

The Captain must make the landing when visibility is less than 3/4 miles or less than 4000 RVR (the lower value is controlling). The Captain should make the landing when adverse conditions exist.

What is adverse you might ask? That is what the captain gets paid for...making these kinds of decisions...it always comes back to experience! ...this captain made a bad choice and will probably lose his job!

 

[Max Powers]

The CA doesn't give the F/O the option in that situation.

Had that happen before, even with experienced F/O's. The weather is that crappy, I simply say, "I'm going to take this leg because of the weather, you can fly a couple legs tomorrow if you'd like, but the weather sucks and I'm going to fly it."

No discussion. It's not a democracy. That's where judgment comes in.

Hmmm me thinks we have a tool here

 

[Oakum_Boy]

That's what I say too but maybe more delicately. Guess I'm a tool.

 

[pipe]

Yes he should have thought about that before commencing the approach. However once in the flare it looked like it turned ugly real fast. Maybe to fast for him to reach for that side stick. She should have stayed home that day and left the flying to the professionals. Maybe make some soup for some lucky man coming home from a hard day of work.....

I'm surprised this point hasn't come up yet. These two may have been "victims" of that crazy A-320 priority left / priority right sidestick business as the Capt tried to save their a$$es.

I'm willing to bet that in the heat of that mess he didn't remember to hold the priority button, she kept her hands on the stick (let that one go), and the problems were compounded.

It's been awhile, so I don't remember the details of how that whole thing works. I just remember thinking on IOE that, for all practical purposes, if you don't get a good, quick transfer of control - you've got problems. My first thought after learning how that system worked was that I wouldn't want to be a line check airman riding along for someones first landing. There's really no way to "help" a student a bit if they are dorking it up.

PIPE

PS- I just noticed that BringUptheBird mentioned this on page 2. Other than the obvious though - I'm gonna bet that this was a huge factor.

 

[DOVPILOT]

I think the Captain is just as much to blame as the FO for letting the FO land in those conditions.

AMEN!!!

 

[Cardinal]

Amen! Those Airbii just give me the willies. All the "laws" and "modes" trying to second guess everything the pilot does. You guys can have it. I'll stick with my decades-old cable and pulley DC-9 controls.

May you always have the choice.

 

[Max Powers]

That's what I say too but maybe more delicately. Guess I'm a tool.

Or if your skilled and assertive you can prevent something like this from ever happening.

 

[Pocono Pilot]

I ALWAYS take the tough landings. No way am I going to trust my aircraft in the hands of a rookie during a tough approach. This captain made a bad decision pure and simple. Who cares whether it was a male or female FO.

FOs are there to support the captain, and if they are nice, maybe they will get a leg. LOL


J/k about that last part. LOL Well, sorta. hehehehe

 

[viper548]

OH MY GOD, I agree with pocono for once

 

[BigMeat]

I ALWAYS take the tough landings. No way am I going to trust my aircraft in the hands of a rookie during a tough approach. This captain made a bad decision pure and simple. Who cares whether it was a male or female FO.

FOs are there to support the captain, and if they are nice, maybe they will get a leg. LOL


J/k about that last part. LOL Well, sorta. hehehehe

And if it really gets rough Pocono, then handed it over to man sitting next to you.

 

[Turtle21]

Nothing like flying with an assertive, smart, over-confident woman with little experience, until she attempts first crosswind landing or go-around.


What adventure! And the rationalizations come spewing out...read something years ago that noted a study by the Air safety foundation.. said men have slight tendency to make judgement errors, women have problems with aircraft handling. I believe it...

I love flying....

As a military flight instructor with about 2,000 hours of teaching the T-37 (First jet for Air Force) I have empirical evidence relating to women pilots.

Flight suits are cut for narrow hips and broad shoulders.:laugh:

 

[Lear70]

First of all where did I say "always"? I said most and if you look you will see that the data supports my position.

Granted, but I still think "most" isn't very accurate. I'd be interested to see a breakdown, maybe it is 60/40 or something similar, I'd be curious to know.

My company's rules would not allow me to attempt a landing with a 59kt crosswind component. If they did I don't think I would try unless I had a compelling reason to land (fire).

That wasn't the component, that was the gust. 60 degrees off the nose, base winds at 40 I believe, makes it around a 30 kt base crosswind component, 50 kt gust.

That said, I'd have thought twice about it as well.

If I thought the conditions were within legal and real limits I can't see a situation where the Fo should not be allowed to make the first attempt, unless: that person is still in training.

I can. Our F/O's aren't even allowed to TOUCH the controls for the first 6 months until they've been signed off by 3 Captains AND a check airman. For ANY phase of flight.

No, I'm not kidding, and it's usually warranted, sad to say, because of their inexperience.

Keep in mind that if you think they are too weak to handle the situation you are now effectively moving yourself into a single pilot environment. You had better not make a mistake, no-one will catch you if you fall.

Welcome to my world. This is the hardest I've ever had to work in my life. The last couple weeks have been nice, I've had guys close to upgrade and I've been letting them fly all the legs from the left seat.

Last month? Let's just say I spent the entire 2 weeks training them how to prep charts, READ charts, tune navaids (and when to tune) and program the GPS for the route, plus having to answer half their calls they missed.

Maybe that's skewing my take on this accident - plus the low-time airline pilot is a personal pet peeve of mine. I cringe when I have to get in the back of an RJ and the kid on the right looks about 15 and the CA looks about 80, weighs 290 pounds, and is chewing on his take-out McD's...

On a final note: When I was an instructor I waited as long as possible before I interfered. On the lear I waited less than on any other airplane.

Learjet: Easy to fly - Easy to crash

I asked one student what he thought it took to fly the lear.

With a heavy accent; "Razor sharp pitch control, split second decision making."

Agreed.

Hmmm me thinks we have a tool here

If you say so...

Or maybe you'd like to be the German CA at this point on administrative leave pending discipline/retraining/609 ride? 'Cause that's what would have happened here...

Personally, I'm not taking that chance. Your mileage may vary.

 

[jke406]

Let's face it. Male or female, Ab initio pilots SUCK.

 

[waveflyer]

How many hours does the standard military pilot have when he/she's first on real sophisticated a/c?

ie: it can be done- but the training and the talent have to be there.
Nothing replaces a sharp mind and a knack for the job- like i said before- we've all flown w/ plenty of 10,000 hour guys who've been f'ing this job up for over a decade. Just not bad enough yet to be fired. I've flown w/ some very sharp young 1000 hour guys and girls who i have no doubt would have been very good at 300 hours if they had the opportunity. It was about their talent and approach to the job. Plenty of pilots build time warming seats... even as instructors. Some get a lot out of every flight.

 

[IronCityBlue]

you gotta love automatic German to English translation.

"Quite modestly, he said after the horror landing: "It was a sophisticated approach. But through the start we were Lord of the situation. "

:laugh: Any questions? I didn't think so! Now eetz tyme on Schprocketz zat ve dawnce!

 

[bubbers44]

She needs about 5 hrs in a J3 cub to learn how to land in a crosswind. That approach reminds me of what my students did 30 years ago on their first x-wind landing attempts.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I can. Our F/O's aren't even allowed to TOUCH the controls for the first 6 months until they've been signed off by 3 Captains AND a check airman. For ANY phase of flight.

No, I'm not kidding, and it's usually warranted, sad to say, because of their inexperience.


Welcome to my world. This is the hardest I've ever had to work in my life. The last couple weeks have been nice, I've had guys close to upgrade and I've been letting them fly all the legs from the left seat.

Last month? Let's just say I spent the entire 2 weeks training them how to prep charts, READ charts, tune navaids (and when to tune) and program the GPS for the route, plus having to answer half their calls they missed.

Maybe that's skewing my take on this accident - plus the low-time airline pilot is a personal pet peeve of mine.

Lear I agree....but just curious....where are you now that has such tight restrictions on the new guys? Doesn't sound like a bad idea.....

 

[waveflyer]

If it actually takes 6 months to be able to touch the controls- they shouldn't be pilots at all.

 

[JoeMerchant]

If it actually takes 6 months to be able to touch the controls- they shouldn't be pilots at all.

....some of them aren't and shouldn't be signed off to solo out of the pattern....