Details about the near-crash in Germany

[BigMeat]

I ALWAYS take the tough landings. No way am I going to trust my aircraft in the hands of a rookie during a tough approach. This captain made a bad decision pure and simple. Who cares whether it was a male or female FO.

FOs are there to support the captain, and if they are nice, maybe they will get a leg. LOL


J/k about that last part. LOL Well, sorta. hehehehe

And if it really gets rough Pocono, then handed it over to man sitting next to you.

 

[Turtle21]

Nothing like flying with an assertive, smart, over-confident woman with little experience, until she attempts first crosswind landing or go-around.


What adventure! And the rationalizations come spewing out...read something years ago that noted a study by the Air safety foundation.. said men have slight tendency to make judgement errors, women have problems with aircraft handling. I believe it...

I love flying....

As a military flight instructor with about 2,000 hours of teaching the T-37 (First jet for Air Force) I have empirical evidence relating to women pilots.

Flight suits are cut for narrow hips and broad shoulders.:laugh:

 

[Lear70]

First of all where did I say "always"? I said most and if you look you will see that the data supports my position.

Granted, but I still think "most" isn't very accurate. I'd be interested to see a breakdown, maybe it is 60/40 or something similar, I'd be curious to know.

My company's rules would not allow me to attempt a landing with a 59kt crosswind component. If they did I don't think I would try unless I had a compelling reason to land (fire).

That wasn't the component, that was the gust. 60 degrees off the nose, base winds at 40 I believe, makes it around a 30 kt base crosswind component, 50 kt gust.

That said, I'd have thought twice about it as well.

If I thought the conditions were within legal and real limits I can't see a situation where the Fo should not be allowed to make the first attempt, unless: that person is still in training.

I can. Our F/O's aren't even allowed to TOUCH the controls for the first 6 months until they've been signed off by 3 Captains AND a check airman. For ANY phase of flight.

No, I'm not kidding, and it's usually warranted, sad to say, because of their inexperience.

Keep in mind that if you think they are too weak to handle the situation you are now effectively moving yourself into a single pilot environment. You had better not make a mistake, no-one will catch you if you fall.

Welcome to my world. This is the hardest I've ever had to work in my life. The last couple weeks have been nice, I've had guys close to upgrade and I've been letting them fly all the legs from the left seat.

Last month? Let's just say I spent the entire 2 weeks training them how to prep charts, READ charts, tune navaids (and when to tune) and program the GPS for the route, plus having to answer half their calls they missed.

Maybe that's skewing my take on this accident - plus the low-time airline pilot is a personal pet peeve of mine. I cringe when I have to get in the back of an RJ and the kid on the right looks about 15 and the CA looks about 80, weighs 290 pounds, and is chewing on his take-out McD's...

On a final note: When I was an instructor I waited as long as possible before I interfered. On the lear I waited less than on any other airplane.

Learjet: Easy to fly - Easy to crash

I asked one student what he thought it took to fly the lear.

With a heavy accent; "Razor sharp pitch control, split second decision making."

Agreed.

Hmmm me thinks we have a tool here

If you say so...

Or maybe you'd like to be the German CA at this point on administrative leave pending discipline/retraining/609 ride? 'Cause that's what would have happened here...

Personally, I'm not taking that chance. Your mileage may vary.

 

[jke406]

Let's face it. Male or female, Ab initio pilots SUCK.

 

[waveflyer]

How many hours does the standard military pilot have when he/she's first on real sophisticated a/c?

ie: it can be done- but the training and the talent have to be there.
Nothing replaces a sharp mind and a knack for the job- like i said before- we've all flown w/ plenty of 10,000 hour guys who've been f'ing this job up for over a decade. Just not bad enough yet to be fired. I've flown w/ some very sharp young 1000 hour guys and girls who i have no doubt would have been very good at 300 hours if they had the opportunity. It was about their talent and approach to the job. Plenty of pilots build time warming seats... even as instructors. Some get a lot out of every flight.

 

[IronCityBlue]

you gotta love automatic German to English translation.

"Quite modestly, he said after the horror landing: "It was a sophisticated approach. But through the start we were Lord of the situation. "

:laugh: Any questions? I didn't think so! Now eetz tyme on Schprocketz zat ve dawnce!

 

[bubbers44]

She needs about 5 hrs in a J3 cub to learn how to land in a crosswind. That approach reminds me of what my students did 30 years ago on their first x-wind landing attempts.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I can. Our F/O's aren't even allowed to TOUCH the controls for the first 6 months until they've been signed off by 3 Captains AND a check airman. For ANY phase of flight.

No, I'm not kidding, and it's usually warranted, sad to say, because of their inexperience.


Welcome to my world. This is the hardest I've ever had to work in my life. The last couple weeks have been nice, I've had guys close to upgrade and I've been letting them fly all the legs from the left seat.

Last month? Let's just say I spent the entire 2 weeks training them how to prep charts, READ charts, tune navaids (and when to tune) and program the GPS for the route, plus having to answer half their calls they missed.

Maybe that's skewing my take on this accident - plus the low-time airline pilot is a personal pet peeve of mine.

Lear I agree....but just curious....where are you now that has such tight restrictions on the new guys? Doesn't sound like a bad idea.....

 

[waveflyer]

If it actually takes 6 months to be able to touch the controls- they shouldn't be pilots at all.

 

[JoeMerchant]

If it actually takes 6 months to be able to touch the controls- they shouldn't be pilots at all.

....some of them aren't and shouldn't be signed off to solo out of the pattern....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

"Sidestick takeover command button?" What the hell is that? Is this an airplane or a PS3 console? Plastic French crap.

That is right DC9 boy..... enjoy eating your Pascals on your lap.....

I got a nice pullout table I'd like you to meet....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Let's face it. Male or female, Ab initio pilots SUCK.

And yet it is the future... not much you can do about it...

Control what you can.....


on general topic...

Seems to me a little rudder skill is in order....

Rudders are for two reasons: xwind landings and V1 cuts.... but it seems most can't even do that....



go get some tailwheel time....

 

[Lear70]

If it actually takes 6 months to be able to touch the controls- they shouldn't be pilots at all.

You've obviously never tried to fly a 20-series Lear at 300 hours total time coming straight out of a Duchess and/or 172.

Flying the CRJ is like flying a Baron compared to flying the Lear. The quote from AbleOne is most accurate: "Razor sharp pitch control, split-second decision-making". It's not that it's a hard airplane to fly, it's that it can get away from even a seasoned pilot if your attention is diverted for even 2 seconds.

New pilots just don't have the scan to keep up with the airplane when you're taking off empty at 50 degrees OAT with only 3,500 lbs of fuel on board because you're doing your last leg home and it's CAVU and only a 20 minute flight. To be more specific, my last flight like this had a 1,500 ft displaced threshold. We were airborne before we reached the Fixed Distance Marker (less than a 2,000 foot takeoff roll) and cleared 10,000 feet AGL before the end of the runway in the climb.

Then, when you level off at 10,000, if you don't bring the power back aggressively (from 97% to 70% or so), it will go from 200 kts to red line (307) in less than 10 seconds, then the overspeed horn is screaming at you, plus you're fighting just to hold your altitude as the pitch changes with the center of pressure movement along the chord.

No, I'm not exaggerating. The only other aircraft that perform like it are the G-2 (and the MU-2 for roll rate but not climb speed). Period. It's NOT a good airplane to make a transition into the turbine world, much less the jet world, but they catch up... eventually.

THAT'S why Argus (insurance) minimums for 20-series Lear Captains are DOUBLE what they are for 30- and later series Lear Captains and why the DoD won't allow any pilots on DoD contracts that don't have 250 hours in type for the Lear, but will take 100 in the Falcon.

Joe, I work for Kalitta. They're just being safe, realizing that the pilots are qualified and checked per the FAA, but that they're not ready for many of the flight situations they're going to get and want the CA to fly until the F/O's are good and comfortable with the PNF aspects before they start trying to mix a new aircraft, new operation type, high-altitude airspace nav, and high-density ATC work with flying an aircraft that averages 200-300% faster in all phases of flight than they're used to.

That's also why many regional airline FOM's state not only that the CA is the final authority as to who flies, but also that although it is customary to swap legs, the CA is under no obligation to do so if he/she deems it necessary for the safety of flight (straight out of the PCL FOM).

I'm a firm believer that to be an Airline Pilot, you should have to possess an Airline Transport Pilot license, including the minimum flight times to obtain it. Go build time where you're not risking the flying public. I did, so did many others; it's called "paying your dues", and I don't mean with Daddy's wallet (or a student loan you can't possibly hope to pay back for at least a decade or more).

 

[JoeMerchant]

That's also why many regional airline FOM's state not only that the CA is the final authority as to who flies, but also that although it is customary to swap legs, the CA is under no obligation to do so if he/she deems it necessary for the safety of flight (straight out of the PCL FOM).

I'm a firm believer that to be an Airline Pilot, you should have to possess an Airline Transport Pilot license, including the minimum flight times to obtain it. Go build time where you're not risking the flying public. I did, so did many others; it's called "paying your dues", and I don't mean with Daddy's wallet (or a student loan you can't possibly hope to pay back for at least a decade or more).

Exactly correct.....ALPA could make this a priority and possibly enlist help from the media and the insurance companys...

This is a true safety issue that has collective bargaining implications.....

Other professions have managed to regulate the barriers to entry much better than we have.....

 

[CX880]

I couldn't even finish reading those articles, basically praising the pilots for saving peoples lives. The 24 year old pilot who was apparently flying in hurricane weather, if you watch the video, you'll see that was the worst crosswind technique possible. I didn't even check what the experience of the fo was. In my opinion they should be fired.